Episode 71: Byron Katie: Four Questions That End Suffering

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In 1986, at the bottom of a ten-year fall into depression, anger, and addiction, Byron Katie woke up one morning and realized that all suffering comes from believing our thoughts. She saw that no one is separate from anyone or anything. Questioning every painful thought she had, she developed an amazing method of inquiry she called “The Work”. The Work asks four simple questions that turn stressful thoughts around. Working with a thought (asking these four questions in a disciplined, methodical way), you come to see thoughts aren’t personal. You discover that our own mind is causing our suffering, and you see around our thoughts to the choices beyond suffering. Join Katie and me as we talk about these four questions and the path away from suffering and towards love. And don’t miss Katie’s exercises for you to use to transform the suffering in your life.

Transcript

Chip: Welcome to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I'm your host Chip August and today on the show we're going to be talking with Byron Katie and we're going to be talking about suffering and really how to stop suffering. Byron Katie is an amazing person. Byron Katie has one job, she says “To teach people how to stop suffering.” In 1986 at the bottom of a ten year fall into depression anger and addiction Byron Katie woke up one morning and realized that all suffering comes from believing our thoughts. She saw, she experienced with her own eyes and skin, that no one is separate from anyone or anything. Questioning every painful thought she had, she developed an amazing method of inquiry called “The Work.” “The Work” asks four simple questions that turn stressful thoughts around. When you work with a thought you see around it to the choices beyond suffering. Katie has been bringing “The Work” to millions of people around the world for more than twenty years. Her free public events, weekend workshops, nine day school for “The Work”, and twenty-eight day residential turnaround house, bring long awaited liberation to people everywhere. Byron Katie has also written four best selling books. “Loving What Is”, “I Need Your Love, Is That True?,” “A Thousand Names for Joy,” and “Question Your Thinking, Change the World.” Her newest book “Who Would You Be Without Your Story? Dialogs With Byron Katie.” I believe was just released last month.

Katie: You can use the affirmation “I'm lovable, I'm loving, and loved,” “lovable, loving, and loved.” Then you begin to feel it experience it, it begins to ring true to you until you get the parking ticket or your partner has an affair. So there's an underworld that lives under “lovable loving and loved.” In other words all these beautiful thoughts we have, like “I care about you,” and “Isn't the world wonderful?” Those are true. Those are true, they're more like your nature. But there's a whole negative world under that that overrides the positive thoughts. Now we don't want it to happen, and we don't like it when it happens and it happens. People, forever, have wanted the mind to stop. “Just stop, stop, I just want to stop my head.” You know, people kill themselves, they commit suicide, because they can't stop their heads. And it's just too painful and it looks like the way out but the way out is in. So the “Yes or No,” that's it. You know I was asked to go a place outside of Gaza to a university with these beautiful women it was a women's university. I really didn't expect anyone to show up and it was so full of these women and they were standing the whole auditorium was full. When we turn these around, they're huge, I don't care about me. And to find the ways that maybe you treat you, could be less caring than what you partner is living towards you. You know if we're not our own best friend then how can we expect them to be. You know, and we're so hurt when they're unkind. And look how unkind we are to ourselves. You know, maybe we can't change our partners but we do have the opportunity to work with ourselves.

Chip: Byron Katie, welcome the show, welcome to Sex, Love and Intimacy.

Katie: Thank you Chip.

Chip: So I am, actually having never met you and having only been exposed to your work recently, I have to say I'm already a big fan. Ok? Because, I like simple. Your approach to thoughts and to changing thoughts, seems to me, to be simple. So, I want to first just kind of talk to you about your personal story and how you got to this. So can you talk a little bit about your personal story and what your life was like before you had this extraordinary experience?

Katie: Yes, as you mentioned earlier I was in this downward spiral of depression and there was no way to put on the breaks it was like falling into this pit, and it just continued to get worse for more than a decade. And then one day as I lay sleeping on the floor, I was so full of , really, self-hatred that I didn't believe I deserved a bed to sleep on. So I'd sleep beside my bed at night and lying on the floor asleep one morning actually, this cockroach crawled over my foot and I opened my eyes. Isn't that wild? And I opened my eyes and there was this amazing experience, and in place of all that darkness, that inescapable darkness, was a joy that I can't even describe. And that's where the four questions, the you know “The Work,” that's what I take all over the world now, it's what I do. I want to make sure as many people as possible know that these four questions exist. And I woke up and I could see clearly that you know, when I believed my thoughts, I suffered, and when I didn't believe them I didn't suffer. And I've come to see that this is true for every human being. So when we question the stressful thoughts that we're believing and we really understand them, you know we just take for granted that what people tell us is true. And, especially as children, and that's fine, it's how we create the world. But the stressful thoughts, like there's something to fear, those thoughts, now that is a breach of intimacy. There's no intimacy when we're in fear and there's no love when we're in fear, it's there it just that our awareness of it is broken. So we experience this separateness, so what I invite people to do is to identify when they're stressed out and they look at their relationship, you know love and sex and what we're all talking about here in this particular time together. We look at what we're believing about our partner, and that either turns us off or it turns us on, physically. So what we're believing, our feelings are the effect of that. In other words everything we experience emotionally is the effect of what we're believing. So we've tried to change our feelings and change our feelings and it doesn't work as long as we're believing those unquestioned stressful thoughts, those thoughts that separate. So I bring a very simple, as you mentioned earlier as well, a very, very, very simple way of understanding and it's a, it's, you know, anyone whose mind is open to it can do this.

Chip:So you're really saying that pretty much all suffering is caused by our mind, our thoughts.

Katie: A hundred percent of it.

Chip:A hundred percent of suffering is caused by thoughts, now I actually agree with you, but that is a, that is a Very big idea! You know, because I think, that person who is hitting on me is causing my suffering or I think...

Katie: Of course.

Chip: that the person who is cheating on me is causing my suffering

Katie: Of course.

Chip: And you're basically saying, “No no no, that's not what's causing your suffering, it's your thoughts about that.”

Katie: Yes, it's not possible that, like, if my husband were cheating on me and I found out about it, if I experience heartache and pain and suffering, anger and sadness any of it. I am creating that within me. Because I'm believing my thoughts about him. It's as though, it's assumed that he doesn't have a right to his own life.

Chip: Right, well and not that your just believing your thoughts about him your also believing your thoughts about you. So that in that moment when I think that my partner is cheating, I mean that's a really good example because there's a lot of suffering in those kind of betrayals.

Katie: Yes.

Chip: You know, so in that moment, when I believe that my partner is cheating, among other things, I begin to believe that I am someone who could be cheated on. You know I am clearly someone...

Katie: You begin to tear yourself down. “If I had only told her I love her more, if had only bought her the ring she wanted, if I had just thanked her, if I had just appreciated her, if I hadn't been angry last night,” you know, on and on and on. So the mind, you know, attacks that person, they're cheating on us, it attacks them then it swerves around and attacks us. You know, it just blames blames blames. And every time the mind attacks it's a physical thing. We feel it.

Chip: So you're actually saying that we really need to train our mind to be our friend, our mind by the time we're adults our mind is just no longer our friends and we need to make friends with out thoughts again by choosing different thoughts.

Katie: Well, you know, I don't know how we can choose separate thoughts. It's like, we can try but the others reoccur. And like, you can use the affirmation “I'm lovable, I'm loving, and loved,” “lovable, loving, and loved.” Then you begin to feel it experience it, it begins to ring true to you until you get the parking ticket. Now when you get the parking ticket, or your partner has an affair.

Chip: Or the tax bill or your mortgage doubles or your partner is having an affair, yeah,

Katie: Yeah you lose your 501k, ok. So there's an underworld that lives under unlovable loving and
love. In other words all these beautiful thoughts we have, like “I care about you,” and “Isn't the world wonderful?” Those are true. Those are true, they're more like your nature. But there's a whole negative world under that that overrides the positive thoughts. Now we don't want it to happen, and we don't like it when it happens and it happens. So I am inviting people to deal with this underworld and on my website and there's a “Judge-Your-Neighbor Worksheet” it's absolutely free, and people can fill that in with very short simple sentences. And then concept by concept, they can question what they're believing. And then, what happens Chip, is the next time that thought comes, you notice you don't believe it. So when we don't believe something we can not make it true for us. Like when you know something's not true, no one, and you really know it, people can't convince you otherwise.

Chip: Right, right right.

Katie:And you know, that would be like, your gender, someone says “you're a male,” or “you're a female” and you believe that all your life, and you have every proof of it, through your partnerships, through etcetera, through the way your hair grows, everything. So, you know, you can't not believe it. Ok well we have a lot of thoughts that we believe just as solidly. We're just as convinced, and as we question them using these four questions, then we're shocked at what isn't true. And our whole identity begins to change, and every time we question what we believe, our identity shifts, and then we just experience ourselves as kinder human beings because we have dealt with this underworld. For example ; you know the thought “He doesn't care about me.” Like he has an, let's say, your partner has an affair. And you think the thought, “He doesn't care about me anymore. He doesn't love me anymore.” “She' doesn't love me, she doesn't care about me anymore.” So you just, for me it would be “doesn't care about me anymore.” So I would, I would do the work on that. I would work on that, and...

Chip: So the so now the first step of that work, I love this, the first step of that work, and this is just a good moment to talk about this.

Katie: Good.

Chip: You ask a question, “Is it true?”

Katie: Absolutely, “He doesn't care about me.” Is it true? Let's see “He doesn't care about you.” Is it true? Second question...

Chip: Hey, wait, before, let's not get into the second one yet! How do I? I mean, there's a part of me, I love this work you have to tell, but there's a part of me that thinks, “How do I even know if it's true.” In my mind there's this battle going on, where I'm thinking on the one hand, “Well, she buys my clothes and she cooks my meals, and she or whatever, she takes care of the kids.” You know she does all these things that demonstrates she loves me. And she is having an affair with this other person which demonstrates she doesn't love me. How do I know even, how do I get past the first step?

Katie: By just answering the question.

Chip: And deep inside I just know whether it's true or not.

Katie: Well, just get still and answer it. And I invite people to commit to a yes or a no, and it doesn't matter which one. You're finally taking your own mind back.

Chip: Got it, we get out of the maybe, and we just decide, is this true or not?

Katie: No you don't even decide, you just open the space and wait and you just come up with a yes or a no. And you just open your mind and you just very gently answer the question, it's not a huge big deal. We're just, you know, we're just answering the first question from as deeply within us as we possibly can. Now, what your mind did, Chip, is what the mind does when ask “Is it true?” “She's cooks for me, she does this, she does that, duh duh duh, how would I know duh duh.” Ok just notice, notice, now. Answer the question. It's like, the work stops working the moment you stop answering the questions. And so all of that logic that was coming out of you, you know we still have war on this planet. We promise to love each other to the death and we don't have a lot of that in our heads. You know I say personalities don't love, they want something.

Chip: Now wait, wait, say that again.

Katie: Personalities do not love, they want something.

Chip: Hmm, ok now that's a big thought.

Katie: It's just how it is and you know, I've I've discovered.

Chip: Who does love?

Katie: Well, an ego doesn't love, love is our nature it's our true nature, it's what we are already. So we take on this identity, “I need your love, I need your love. I need your approval.” That's what we're seeking not the truth. We're seeking love, approval and appreciation. If I had a prayer it would be “God spare me from the desire for love, approval and appreciation.” It's a full time job, it takes your life over, and you miss love.

Chip:So you're saying basically love is not something we get, we can go out and get, it's not something we find, it's not something we fall into, we are love. And in our convoluted thinking and in our in just how, I don't know why. But somehow or another we forget that.

Katie: Well it's simple why. We believe our thoughts and we lose the awareness of our love. That thought become the obstacle to love.

Chip: Ahh, got it. Ok, that's a great place to pause, because I want to pause here, I love this conversation, this is terrific, all the things you're saying just are, right up with just what I believe so I really appreciate it. We're going to pause for a moment though and we want to take a short break to support our sponsors. Listeners, I'd really like you to listen to these ads, the ads have been created by my sponsors for my show and they help me bring my work to you. If you can support the sponsors I'd really appreciate it, I get credit for anything you can utilize, and this is what keeps the program growing. Also I want you to know there's all kinds of good deals, so if you look on my episode pages, at personallifemedia.com that's all one word personallifemedia.com. The show is Sex, Love, and Intimacy. If you look on the episode pages, you'll see all kinds of good deals for things from audible and I've got a new sponsor Adam and Eve have like 18000 adult toys and products. And I've got Ice.com jewelry and all kinds of things. So look take the discounts, listen to the sponsors please, and we'll be right back.

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Chip: We're back you're listening to Sex, Love, and Intimacy. I'm your host Chip August, we're talking to Byron Katie and Katie has just been talking about “The Work,” which is the name of her work, and it's work designed to end suffering to really help us get out of the trap of the suffering that's caused by our thoughts, that's caused by our thoughts, that's cause by our own minds. And I'm getting it, a little bit at a time here, now you say in the book stress is a gift, that in fact every uncomfortable feeling is a gift. Could you say a little something about that because there's a moment where it's like, “Wait a minute, my stress doesn't feel like a gift!”

Katie: Yeah! Well you know everything is for us, is done for us, not to us. I found it's a friendly universe, you know Einstein said there's only one question, “Is the universe friendly?” And I just fell into this awareness, this realization, that in fact the universe is friendly and I have been testing that for 23 years, and so far so good. It is ringing true. So, in my world any time anything is unacceptable to me, I look at, my mind judges that to be a negative thing, not ok. I'm going to feel stress. Because it argues with the true nature of everything that's negative, and so we feel it.

Chip:Ahh ok, so we think we're out of touch with the reality, and that's what's causing the stress.

Katie:Yes, you're at war with what is, you're at war with your own true nature. So I invite people to identify what they're thinking when they're feeling that stress. And to put it on paper and to put it up against these two questions. In other words to work that concept, to work those concepts to work that thought.

Chip: So I'm going to look and see “Is it true?” “Can I absolutely know whether it's true?”

Katie: Yes and then sit with that one, don't be in a rush. Can you absolutely, and the one we were using was “He doesn't care about me?” So can you absolutely know that it's true that he doesn't care about me. Ok so, about you, so you just get very still with that and notice and commit to a yes or a no. And notice how your mind wants to go nuts with logic.

Chip: Right, proving it, or disproving it.

Katie:And then just notice and commit to that simple yes or not answer, and it's ok, they're both equal.

Chip: Ok, so it doesn't matter really matter whether I get to the yes or no, but I have to get to that still place inside me that actually knows, yes or no.

Katie: Well, you know, the truth continues to change.

Chip: Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you next.

Katie: So you just wait for the one that feels right to you, and commit to answer the question and it's going to take a while, it's meditation, it's noticing. So then the third question.

Chip: Wait, wait before you get to the third question, we're going to get to all four, but I go slow here, I notice in the book and on your website, you talk about the power of, this is not an exercise to just do in your head, this is not you just ask in your mind, Well “Is it true?” and then you ask yourself in your mind “How can you, Can you absolutely know.” But that there is a real power in actually sitting with a piece of paper and a writing implement or sitting, I assume it's just as well fitting at your laptop and typing it, but you know, but that there's a power in taking the words out of your head and putting them down on piece of paper somewhere.

Katie: Absolutely! You know, people, forever, have wanted the mind to stop. “Just stop, stop, I just want to stop my head.” You know, people kill themselves, they commit suicide, because they can't stop their heads. And it's just too painful and it looks like the way out but the way out is in. And you know, I did suicide enough years, and it was, you know, I obsessed over it I was so depressed. And you know, so I died of the self, and this work you know, again, is for anyone that is open to it and want a way out. So we're going in. So the, yes or no, that's it. You know I was asked to go a place outside of Gaza to a university with these beautiful women, it was a women's university and I wanted to speak to them, into their auditorium. I really didn't expect anyone to show up except for a couple of people who invited me and it was so full of these women it was it was so ama... I mean, they were standing, the whole auditorium was full. And I was very shocked. And I had a translator there, and I walked into this sea of black you know, the burkas that they wear, with just their eyes showing out. And you know, we did this work, they were amazing! And what I said was what I'm saying here is “Take your own minds back!” You know what you're thinking isn't necessarily true just because you believe it. And, Oh my goodness, it was such a powerful day and I just want that for everyone. On this last nine day school I had, we had six tu-tus come in from, I mean tootsies come in, chuckles tutus..

Chip:Yeah yeah that was a combination of hutus and tootsies, I know, yeah..

Katie:Yeah, and six tootsies came in from Rwanda, and then by the last day of school, one of them stood up just sobbing and said “I am a hutu and I did genocide and my tribe did genocide against my friends the tootsies.” and it was the most amazing thing, this work is, it's amazing. And of course there was a bonding there between him and the tootsies that he always wanted with, you know, himself and that just goes out. So his life is about taking this work back to the hutus and so this doesn't have to happen again so he can be a part of that. But this work, you know what it equates to is the truth and it is the truth that sets us free. So if we go back to the thought on, “He doesn't care about me.” And then we ask that third question “How do you react, when you believe that thought, what happens, and get still with that one how do you react when you believe the thought “he doesn't care about you.” What happens? And you see the effects of what you're believing, how you treat him when you think that thought, how you treat yourself when you think that thought. And the addictions that happen, that's the effect of believing this stressful thought. And it's not right or wrong and it's ok to believe it. We're just looking at the effects of mind and the world it creates. And we begin to understand that it is the mind that creates the world. And that is powerful to understand because it means that, well, you know, it's huge!

Chip:Yeah, basically we filter everything through our thoughts so in a way, our thoughts actually, we actually superimpose our thoughts on reality and see reality through our thoughts.

Katie: That's exactly it. Exactly.

Chip: Ok, so this is really good so we got three of them now. We got “Is it True?”, “Can we absolutely know that it's true?”, “How do you react when you believe that thought?” and I love the fourth question right? “Who would you be without the thought?”

Katie: Exactly, in the same world in the same situation, same thing happening, yes he's having an affair, yeah yeah yeah. And who would you be without the thought “He doesn't care about you?” And to just get still and look into that space only without the thought.

Chip: Because that's every, because I have to say, that's every country western love song. Who would I be? I'd be nobody without you, I'd be lost without you, I'd be broken without you.

Katie: Long sustained laugh.

Chip: It is the staple of love songs for, and while I love the songs, I could listen to Rogers and Heart forever, but that's every Rogers and Heart song you know?

Katie: Yeah and in the same situation without the thought, “he doesn't care about me,” love, connection, intimacy. And that is orgasmic. I can tell you that when your mind is open, when your mind is open an example of that, is when I found the work, I experienced a moment with my husband where I started to orgasm, and because my mind was so free, and a free mind is a fearless mind, so that the orgasm began and it lasted for three days. And it was so amazing, he was not the cause, mind is the cause. And also if for some of you listening, if your partner, you know if you're not turned on by him, then question what you're believing about him or her. And also like, if your partner wants sex, you know, like if someone said, like if my husband said Katie you want sex? How would I know? That's a story of the future, how would I know? So, you know, I would just, my line is, honey I don't know touch me and we'll find out, my mind is open.

Chip:Right this is exactly, my partner and I, we teach this to couples all the time that “Why don't we try this?” Instead of asking that question, why don't we get naked, hold each other together, look into each others eyes, breathe and then just notice, “What's the next thing we want to do.” And what I notice, I can think I don't want to have sex, or my partner can think “Oh, I'm too tired, or I don't want to, I'm not in the mood.” I notice when we're actually naked, holding each other, breathing, looking into each others eyes, all kinds of magical things happen. Some of which may be sex some of which may not, maybe just the act of being naked and holding each other is, in fact, sex. But you're right, how can I know thinking out there in the future.
Katie: Yes and it doesn't require taking our clothes off.

Chip: Oh yeah, well I like that part.

Katie:It's just not a requirement. Intimacy comes from within, it's from the inside out.

Chip: Wait, wait pause. This is a great moment to take a break. Because that's a great thought and I want to take another break here. So, we're having a lively conversation here Byron Katie and I, you're listening to. Listeners I want to remind you that we transcribe every episode of Sex, Love, and Intimacy so if you heard something that sounded really interesting just now, why you can read it, and actually look at it in print and you might even want to take some of these very powerful thoughts and cut one out and put it up on your computer or put it up on your wall because it's really extraordinary. And of course you can forward it to other people or forward the episode to other people and that way my audience can grow. So I want to say, please do that. Help me grow this audience, it's been remarkable this first year and a half that I've been on the air and I'd like all of your help to reach more and more and more people. If you're looking for those transcripts, again they're at personallifemedia.com and the name of the show is Sex, Love and Intimacy, and we'll be right back.

Commercial Break

Chip: Welcome back, you're listening to Sex, Love, and Intimacy. I'm your host Chip August, I'm talking to Byron Katie, Byron Katie, who teaches “The Work.” And we've been talking about what the work is, and kind of these four basic questions that really are the heart I think of the work, but there's a step after these questions. So you're asking “Is it True?,” “Can you absolutely know that it's true?,” “How do you react, what happens when you believe the thought?,” “Who would you be without that thought?”and then, I love this, then you ask people to do something with that thought. You call it, turn it around, what do you mean by that?

Katie: So we find opposites, “He doesn't care about me.” turned around “I don't care about him.” Now that can be very shocking, and your mind might go “Well, that's not true” and then you look at everything you've done for him and how you've sacrificed and then go back to it and look again, find examples, of how you've lead him or her to believe that you don't care. Like where do you punish, and where do you apply guilt? And then get specific, and then make amends for it, for your sake, and because when we make amends, we find examples, and make amends for it, it raises our awareness. We're more aware the next time it happens. And we already have found we don't, that's not us. That's not the us that we live well with, that there's guilt in it and guilt, that's hard, that's really hard, it's a busy mind.

Chip:And you see, it's another quote I listed from your work here, you said if I see someone is irresponsible, in that moment I'm irresponsible. If I see someone is uncaring, in that moment I'm uncaring. If you hate me, you hate you. If you love me, you love you. That's a profound thing, that's the “I only see in others what's true of me.”

Katie: Yes, you know what else, they, people are who we believe them to be, no more no less.

Chip: Right, but they're also who we believe... Right.

Katie:So.. if we don't know... we need to do the work with, on what we're believing about them. You know how irresponsible of me to see you as irresponsible, you know that's your path. It's necessary. And how unloving of me to see you as unloving. You know, we can't get away from it. You know, attack is attack. And when we attack what we don't understand we never come to understand.
Chip:Now this turn around, I noticed the one you picked was “He doesn't care about me, so maybe he does care about me.” But also, I could turn that around and say “I don't care about me.”

Katie: Yeah, and that's very powerful and then to begin to find examples. And don't just, when we turn these around they're huge “I don't care about me.” And to find the ways that maybe you, the way you treat you, could be less caring than what your partner is living toward you. And probably is, you know, if we are not our own best friend, how can we expect them to be? You know, and we're so hurt when they're unkind, and look how unkind we are to ourselves. And umm to, you know, maybe we can't change our partners but we do have the opportunity to work with ourselves. And you know, I was always wagging my finger toward my children until I discovered every piece of advice I was issuing toward them, was for me. And when I began to take my own device, you know, my goodness, I became so, I was thrilled that they weren't listening to me. If they had they taken my advice, those poor pups, my goodness. And also no one could follow the advice I was meeting out. It was not possible, so I became very humble in that, but I became my best friend in that. You know, and I don't expect anyone to love when I don't love, or anyone to be caring when I am so uncaring. So you know, I'm just having a love affair with myself and working on me, and people are calling me kind, and it's, I'm doing nothing more or less than just self-love and it is, it's a full time job.

Chip: Yeah you say that like it's little but it's but it's big.

Katie: Huge!

Chip: Nothing more or less than self love, I spent 15 years in marketing and advertising, and there's a truism about, if you want people buy something, make them feel bad about themselves. You know, if they feel bad about, if they think they smell bad they'll buy deodorant, if they think their hair is ugly, they'll buy shampoo, if they think they look ugly, they'll buy clothing, so that self-love thing is a big thing.

Katie: Yeah yeah, and you know, until we love our thoughts, we can not love people.

Chip: Right

Katie: We have to, the mind has to end the war with itself before it ends the world, you know with the self, with our families, community, and world.

Chip:Ok now, there's one more turnaround, and I notice you say when you ask people to do these statements, in any statement you could do at least three turnarounds, so he...

Katie: Well not with all of them, some of them will just have one turnaround and some of them could have, like, six.

Chip: So “He doesn't care about me,” one is “I don't care about him.” one might be “I don't care about me.” and one might be “he cares about me.”

Katie: Yes “he does care about me” and then to find examples yes, he's having the affair, let's say it's true. Yes he's having the affair, and “he doesn't care about me” turned around “he does care about me. ” You know, to open our minds to that, just because someone is having an affair, that you know, if our partner is having an affair, it doesn't mean that they don't care about us, it just means he or she is believing their thoughts. That's all anyone is guilty over. I work in prisons where I have worked with people who have murdered many many people and people who have burned down homes with their wife and children in it. They were believing their thoughts, and if we believed the thoughts that they were believing, then we would be there too. It's like, what are we believing? What are we believing, that is costing us our freedom, our birthright which is happiness. And basically the awareness of our own true nature which is love. You know, it's so, suffering is nothing more than the denial of that.

Chip: So Byron Katie if people wanted to know more about you, if they want to find your website, if they want to get more information or want to do your work how would they find you?

Katie: Well they could go to byronkatie.com, or at thework.com the work is you know, all one work, thework.com, and these questions are always free on my website, and the judge-your-neighbor worksheet and everything to do the work is there, it's free, no charge, and of course it's in all my books. And I just believe that everyone deserves to know that these four questions exist and that they work for anyone whose mind is open to it. And they change the world, you know they actually change your world. And it's simple

Chip: And listeners of course will have a link to Byron Katie's “The Work” website, on my episode pages, so go visit personallifemedia.com, “Sex, Love and Intimacy.” and you'll find a link. I always like to ask my guests, would you give an exercise or something somebody could do at home to help the love and intimacy and sexuality in their life. And everything we've been talking about is kind of that, but do you have something else that you want to sort of leave people with or something that they might be able to, or an elaboration on one of the things that we've been working on perhaps, that you want to invite people to try on their own time.

Katie: Yes, to notice, to be willing to and to look forward to not liking your partner. To just absolutely those moment when you do not like your partner. And then to write your thoughts down, your negative thoughts, about your partner, write them down. And then put them up against these four questions and turnaround. And that's the invitation, it is so powerful, your mind will give you every excuse not to, and I invite you just to think of the sharing, and just have the time of your life, and just meeting the love of your life, which is you. And that's what these questions offer you. In that when you love yourself you love everyone, and everything you see. And again I just invite everyone to that.

Chip: I just, I really love talking to you, I really loved looking at your website I have to say right away I could see applications in my own life, I'm really appreciating you being a guest on the show. I have an odd question to end with.

Katie: Uh Huh?

Chip: I call you Katie, you call you Katie, but your name is Byron Katie, and Byron seems like a guy’s name so what's up with the name?

Katie: Well, you know birth certificate, my mother named me Byron Kathleen and of course my married name is Mitchell so, Byron Kathleen Mitchell. And I love the name, but people prefer calling me Katie, so the nickname for my middle name, so that it's it.

Chip: Oh ok, well thank you. Well, Byron Kathleen I appreciate the time and effort and thanks for being on the show.

Katie: Thank you Chip.

Chip: And listeners thank you, once again this brings us to the end of another show, I want to remind you if you have comments, criticism, if you have suggested guests I always want to hear all of that. Just send, drop me a line at [email protected]. And I do read all the emails, if you want to just leave a voicemail you can use the personal life media voice messaging system, at 206-350-5333 and that will get sent to me, and that brings us to the end of another show, thank you for listening and I hope you'll join us again.