Episode 218 - Joe Sugarman on Why People Don’t Buy

Transcript

Susan Bratton: Welcome to DishyMix. I'm your host, Susan Bratton. And on today's show I'm with a very special guest. His name is Joe Sugarman. You may have heard of him because he is in fact a legend in direct response marketing, infomercials. You've probably heard of him associated with his biggest and most famous achievement, which was Blue Blocker Sunglasses. And Joe is also the president of Stem Cell Products, and he is here with me in New York at the ClickBank Exchange, and he just got finished addressing a room full of avid fans and followers, and I have the great luxury of having him one on one here to do a DishyMix. So Joe, welcome to the DishyMix show.

Joe Sugarman: It's good to be here Susan.

Susan Bratton: So the first thing that I want to know is if you had to explain what you were famous for - 'cause I bet you'll do it better than I - what do you think it is that you're most well-known for Joe?

Joe Sugarman: Well I think the fact that we sold 20 million pairs of Blue Blockers, created a brand name, because I think the ultimately thing in marketing is creating brand, and so I would say that was probably the biggest achievement. Although we've had a lot of others, but that one really stands out.

Susan Bratton: And you really, you're known for your psychological and persuasion triggers. And you honed the understanding of those by starting in direct marketing and moving into the infomercial world where you discovered the way that humans respond to marketing messages and what it is that gets them to take action of different kinds, right?

Joe Sugarman: Well it really, I didn't find anything out, I found a lot out in infomercials but all of it came from print, 'cause I'd run an ad and then I would say to myself, "Wait a second, I'm going to test another approach," and I'd test another approach in it would work sensationally or it wouldn't work, but through all these tests and all this experimentation I really got to know what worked and what didn't. And direct marketing is very counterintuitive. What you think will work sometimes doesn't, and what you think won't work sometimes does, you know. So testing is the real key.

Susan Bratton: Absolutely, and you're talking to an audience that really gets that because the marketers who listen to DishyMix certainly understand that you are always testing everything, and that's what we do. You, as a child, wrote a jingle and won an award for it, wrote essays that made your class crack up. You were a writer early on. You naturally fell into the advertising business and positioning unique products with your copywriting skills. What are some of the things that you would tell a person who has an interest in learning copywriting and wants to become masterful at that? What are some of the ways that they can hone their skills?

Joe Sugarman: Well the first of course is to read some of the best copywriting books. I've written a couple of them that have helped a lot of people, but I'm sure there are others out there. But become an expert on copywriting really, and that's easy because there are books available. The second thing after being an expert is to keep writing, and what people don't realize is the more you write the better you get. And so I just love to write and I just keep writing and writing and writing and I do my own catalogues and I never hired a copywriter, I always did it myself. And so it's this constant, there's like this constant business of writing that really perfected my skill. But again, you become an expert and you become an expert in something you're very passionate about - lets say copywriting. And then you write as often as you can.

Now I've taken, I used to give seminars, and at these seminars I'd have just ordinary people who were just kind of curious what it took to get out the message, create a brand and all that kind of stuff. And I remember one particular case where there was a farmer from Texas, and he had an ad agency but he was kind of curious and wanted to find out what little tricks I did when I wrote copy. So he came to my seminar and spent five days. My seminars were that long. And then left and went to the Holiday Inn motel nearby where I gave the seminar and wrote and ad that he has now run for 10 consecutive years and made a fortune. And here's a guy that was not creative, never knew how to write an ad, always relied on his ad agency, and he sat down and wrote an ad that was a killer ad. And so it doesn't take, you don't have to be creative. You have to have the passion I think. I think that's key. You have to have the passion to really want to learn, and that combined with becoming an expert in whatever you decide to learn about, I think that will, that makes for great copywriters.

Susan Bratton: Go a level deeper, beyond becoming an expert, you know, reading a lot, studying, practicing. Go a level deeper if there are any models or systems or ways you think about structuring communication when you're writing. Specifically in advertising a product to someone for purchase, how do you think about that?

Joe Sugarman: Well first of all, every message is a personal message. I make that, I use bylines. For example, I'll put my name there. I'll say, "I", "me", "we". In other words, I'll use words that connotate, it's kind of like a personal message. Now I might be reaching millions of people, but it comes across as a personal message, and people relate to that. They respond better. You know, I've run tests by simply making it a personal message as opposed to "We here at such and such a company want you..." You know, that doesn't work today.

Susan Bratton: "We here at [Inaudible] Corporation." So other structures of models or ways that you think about good writing?

Joe Sugarman: I think the personal message is very strong, and there are, I think if you master that. The triggers that I've had, that I've written about in my books, involve three things. One is to develop a level of trust. The second is to create an environment for selling. And the third is to trigger a sale. So that's, those are the purposes of the triggers. So you want to create an environment where people feel comfortable ordering from you. You want to build trust by being honest in everything that you say in your advertising and you want to be able to trigger a sale by making an offer at a specific time or creating an incentive at a certain time to purchase that particular product or service. It works for both.

Susan Bratton: What are some of the ways that you can engender more trust through your copy? 'Cause I think trust is the hardest. It's pretty easy to set up the environment for a sale and to go through a selling process - objection raising, objection handling, some of your triggers around that. But I think trustworthiness is the most difficult.

Joe Sugarman: Well the object raising and the object resolution are really beautiful examples of building trust because I had a slide for example of an ad that Douglas ran. They had this DC10 and it crashed, and shortly thereafter another crash with a DC10, and then shortly after that another crash with a DC10. So they came out with an advertisement that said, "The DC10 is really a great plane." Well everybody knows that it was crashing all over the place, and I mean they were trying to build up their image. What they should've said was, "Look it, the DC10 has been crashing all over the place but there's something you need to know about its safety and about what we're doing now to make sure it's the safest plane in the sky," and that would've been a lot more effective. I've taken for example there was a thermostat that was presented to me. And I started out the ad by saying this was the ugliest thermostat I had ever seen. It had old technology, the case was terrible, the name, Magic Stat, was stupid, and I started raising all these issues that you would theoretically see if you looked at the, you know, at the product. So and then I disarmed to people by saying, "But we did find one thing that was really interesting. It's ease of installation," because that believe it or not was a major block to selling anything like a thermostat, the installation. Nobody really wanted to install anything electrical.

And I said the reason it was so easy to install was because the yellow wire goes to the yellow lead and it's only 28 volts and you can touch it and not worry, you won't get an electric shock. And so I decided I'd take it home and try it on my wall. And that's when I discovered this is the most incredible product I ever seen. You see what I'm saying? So in other words, I raise all these issues and then I resolve them and people develop number one, a level of trust, because that's, again, raising an objection, resolving it, that's really important because the reader, if in the back of their mind, has something that bothers them about that product they're not going to buy. So you've got to raise that so that it's no longer an issue.

Susan Bratton: Okay, so keeping on with trustworthiness, are there any other things besides the kind of calling out of obvious warts in a product - that's a good one - are there other things that you can do to create or engender trust with your prospect?

Joe Sugarman: Well number one, be honest. Number two, there's another technique too where you don't have to be so obvious. You could let the reader come to their own conclusion. Like I remember we were selling a digital watch that was Sony, or I forget who it was, that was selling for $300, they were selling it for $300.  

Susan Bratton: Could've been Casio.

Joe Sugarman: Probably was Casio.

Susan Bratton: Yeah, back then, right. Uh huh.

Joe Sugarman: Yeah, probably was Casio, you're right. Good. Good memory. Yeah, it was a Casio watch, and I talked about it in the ads saying that the jewelry stores love it because they sell them for $300 and it only costs the jewelry stores $150 and they love this product because they can't keep them in stock. And then I presented my digital watch, which was $100, had the same features. Now I didn't say that the jewelers were making all kinds of profit on it. I didn't have to. The reader made that connection. So in other words, when you allow the reader to come to the right conclusions, it's a stimulating thing for the brain and they appreciate that.

Another thing that I do to build confidence is I'll put in a technical explanation. For example, I remember writing an ad on this laser beam digital watch and there was a little picture of the integrated circuit and a pen pointing to the integrated circuit, and I said something like, "This integrated circuit is the key to the system. It works with the countdown oscillator to achieve the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," all technical stuff. And the manufacturer called me and they said, "Joe, you don't have to put that in, nobody would understand it." I said, "That's the point. They think I really know my stuff because I'm pointing out this technical feature, and it's important we have that paragraph in there." So it's a form of building trust. They trust the fact that my research and my statements and my technical explanation mean that I really know what I'm talking about, and therefore, picking this product to sell is a very good thing.

Susan Bratton: When you were on stage today, you took off, you were dressed very nicely. You had on a suit, you had on a tie, you had on a dress shirt, and then later you took it off, and you had on this fabulous tight - what was it - undershirt, kind of a workout shirt and...

Joe Sugarman: Muscle shirt.

Susan Bratton: Muscle shirt, and you're in amazing condition. For a 73-year-old man you look absolutely incredible. Is this a part of what you're doing with the Stem Cell Products Company? Is it related to that?

Joe Sugarman: Yeah, absolutely.

Susan Bratton: Tell us about it.

Joe Sugarman: Well I waited till the end 'cause you noticed before I...

Susan Bratton: Well we would've not been able to hear what you said because you were dazzling us all Joe.

Joe Sugarman: That's funny. No, the, we are selling products that actually reverse aging in many different ways. For example, we have a hair product that grows hair on bald headed men. We have a product for women that actually thickens the hair and grows hair as well for women. Women had similar but different issues as far as hair...

Susan Bratton: It's different hormones you have to trigger.

Joe Sugarman: Right. And we have a libido product for women. And men are just as interested in it as well because they want to look sexy to their mates, and we've had reports of women who have had hysterectomies, who haven't had sex for like ten years and are now actively involved in pleasing their husbands or their mates. And we have skin care products that use stem cell technology to eliminate wrinkles. And, you know, our theory is, or my theory is - and I see it everyday - is that technology is moving so quickly that within the next 10 to 15 years we will have solved, we would've cured just about every disease and we would have, we would live to about 120, and that we're well on our way. The new gene technology and what's happening in the biotech area is startling. And we're right in that business. And actually what got me back into that business was using some of the products, realizing that I could help millions of people, which has been my motivation ever since I've been in business.  

Susan Bratton: The female product, it's called Pure...?

Joe Sugarman: Pure Fulfillment.

Susan Bratton: Pure Fulfillment, and how does it work?

Joe Sugarman: Well it's a homeopathic product.

Susan Bratton: Mm hmm.

Joe Sugarman: You could rub it on any part of your body. It's primarily used for lubrication for, you know...

Susan Bratton: Vaginal dryness probably...

Joe Sugarman: Right, right.

Susan Bratton: things like that, mm hmm.

Joe Sugarman: Right. And it takes about, oh, three or four days with it, and then you start feeling the effects. Now I don't know, it's for women, but that's what I understand. And the women love it. And the husbands, I was actually taken back. I thought women would buy the product but the husband's are buying the product 'cause they want to look sexy, they want to look more attractive to their mates. They'd like to have, you know, more fun in bed as well. So we're selling a lot of that product to men. So that's exciting. And then we have an addiction product. It's really vitamins for the brain. When you're addicted to smoking, alcohol or drugs, you destroy the neuro transmitters in your brain, and those neuro transmitters, they need nutrients to rebuild. And we sell a little product that you mix with water and drink, and it helps you reduce the cravings. And we've had fabulous success with that. So all of these things you can see help millions of people, help them in times when they are really in need, and it's a thrill for me to be involved in something like that and to pioneer in the areas that we're in. And we've been at this now for five and a half years.

Susan Bratton: Well you've always like cutting edge technologies, even when they were, you know, the very first early electronics. I want to go back to that personal product 'cause the reason I asked about it was that's a really delicate subject, talking to a woman about her sex life or even talking to a man about his woman's sex life, that's just loaded with emotions, potentially a lot of pain a couple might be having if they're not making love anymore. How do you go about creating empathy for your prospect and how do you communicate something when it's a very personal emotional product that might make them potentially recoil through the pain they're feeling or the embarrassment of it or what have you? What are some of the triggers you might use or the approaches you might take for something like that?

Joe Sugarman: Well I think for this product, because I've had some experience with it - it's fairly new. It's only been out a couple months. But with this product we have not had any of that. It's one of these products that people understand what it does. We have testimonials that are very credible and, you know, explain the product very thoroughly. So we really don't have problems, we don't have that particular problem. Now the problem that we do have is with drugs - drugs, alcohol and smoking - because very often people who buy that product are the friends or the relatives or the, of the people who are addicted, who would not want that product. And so it's important that you develop a very good repertoire and you understand that concern and then that, and you use that knowledge to come up with a way to present the product so that they can present it to the person who's addicted.

Susan Bratton: What's your process for getting into a prospect's world and getting the empathy that it takes to write to them and speak to them in a way that's going to move them from prospect to customer?

Joe Sugarman: Number one, you become an expert. You totally become an expert. You become an expert on the product, you become an expert on the customer.

Susan Bratton: Well how do you do that though?

Joe Sugarman: Well I'll give you an example. I had an insurance salesman who came to my home in the very early days when I was selling the pocket calculator. And he would come and he'd buy calculators for his friends and he'd say to me, "Joe, you really need insurance. It's to protect your family," and I would say, "No, I'm not interested in the insurance. I really am not." And then he'd send me articles about pocket calculators and other electronics in the mail, and he became a good friend. And then one day I'm sitting up in the bedroom and I hear sirens and an ambulance pulls up to my neighbor's home, and my neighbor had died. And they brought him to the hospital and it was a shock.

So I picked up the phone and I said, "Howard, you know that insurance you were talking about?" Well very often if you understand the product, for example, burglar alarms, you're not going to get excited about buying a burglar alarm unless you felt it was an impending problem. If your neighbor got robbed, chances are you're going to be serious about looking for the best burglar alarm. Well we had advertised a burglar alarm, and what we discovered was that people would save that article and send it - excuse me - save our ad and then send it in months later, sometimes six months later, wanting the burglar alarm. And so we realized that that's a product that people when they feel threatened will then buy. Well it's the same idea of the way I bought insurance. It was, he knew me well enough, we became friends, which was one of the first steps, and then I saw the need. I mean he could explain it from now until whatever, but until I saw the need it was, you know, it didn't matter.

Susan Bratton: Are there any products or services that you've always wished you could've marketed? Is there something you would've loved to have gotten your hands on, something someone else was botching that you know you could've made a multi million dollar product or something you'd always dreamed that you would love to market to consumers?

Joe Sugarman: Well I, yeah there've been products that - for example, Cannon came out with a product, couldn't sell it. They just couldn't sell it. It was just an unusual format for a calculator. I forget exactly the details, but it was just different, and they just couldn't sell it. And then they came to me and I became, as I said before, an expert on the product and I figured out an angle to sell it, a concept. You always sell with concepts, you never sell the product, you sell a concept about the product.

Susan Bratton: What's an example of a concept for that Cannon product?

Joe Sugarman: Well without using the Cannon product, lets say for example they had - okay here's another product they had, Cannon, was a little calculator. And you could store telephone numbers in the calculator. And they had offered it to a few other people and they bombed. They could not sell it. And so they came to me. They came to me and they said, "Here, this is for you," and what I did was I called it the Pocket Yellow Pages, and I talked about this, it was storytelling. I talked about how I stepped into this phone booth and people are waiting to get into the phone booth, and I'd pull out my Cannon calculator, I'd enter a few digits and there pops up a phone number. Everyone else was astounded, you know. And that's the concept.

In other words, I created a concept. The concept was I was relating it, linking it to something that people could relate to and they could understand from the story. And this process called linking, you want to link to something you know or you remember very clearly. Like we all remember 9/11. I mean you remember where you were, what you were doing, everything about that. I mean I remember, one funny little story that I talk about in my book was that I was with this young lady and we're walking through the woods, we're hiking through the woods and we're talking about our fantasies. And I said, "Well my fantasy is to have some really fancy sports car and live on a tropical island and be wealthy," and all this kind of stuff. And I said, "And what's your fantasy." She says, "Oh my fantasy is, my fantasy is making love with the entire Brazilian soccer team." Well I never forgot that event. I remember where I was. I remember that very clearly. So that's a process called linking.

Susan Bratton: And now we'll always remember that story. This has been a racy episode Joe. So you've been working with people who follow you as a marketer, as an ad man, as a copywriter, as an expert, and you have these 29 psychological triggers. Have you been discovering more? Are there more out there or are there only 29?

Joe Sugarman: Well that's funny you bring that up because actually now there are 31.

Susan Bratton: Oh there's 31? What are latest two?

Joe Sugarman: Well now, and actually they're all...

Susan Bratton: It's like two new elements just discovered, a new planet in the solar system and Joe Sugarman has two new triggers.

Joe Sugarman: Well, you know, it's funny, I always had 30. I don't know where people came up with 29.

Susan Bratton: Oh really?

Joe Sugarman: Yeah, there's always 30.

Susan Bratton: Maybe we've been getting jipped. Our box didn't have all of the pieces.

Joe Sugarman: Well we have 31 actually is fear. I didn't realize this at the time, but I saw that people have fear, that either they're going to lose the opportunity to buy this product or they fear if they don't get it they're going to miss out on something. But fear is a trigger as well. So probably one of the most important triggers is a sense of urgency. In other words, you want to let people know that if they don't buy within a certain period of time they're going to lose out. But it's got to be credible. I mean it can't be phony; it's got to be truthful. Or we only have an X amount of products in stock. We ran a campaign where we explained we only had 1200 of these Picasso tiles, these prints that we made up with the permission of the Picasso estate.

Susan Bratton: Limited edition.

Joe Sugarman: Limited edition, right.

Susan Bratton: Mm hmm, yeah. And collect all five, that's one of yours, yeah. Desire to collect, desire to belong, yeah.

Joe Sugarman: Right, exactly. And we ran that ad stating we only had 1200 and we're going to determine who to sell it to by virtue of a special drawing. In other words, we're going to take all the orders we get, we're going to put them in our computer and we're going to pick 1200 and that's the limit. Well the strategy was to make this so exciting that we would sell 12,000 - or excuse me, get 12,000 entries, pick the winners, but then what a hell of a mailing list. And sure enough, we followed it up with a second mailing and a second series of Picasso tiles and had an 80% return rate. 80%! Everybody who thought they missed out on the first one, missed on the opportunity, missed out on taking advantage of the financial gain that they could get, they were ready to buy, and they bought, and 80% of them bought. So, you know, I'm really surprised...

Susan Bratton: Response rate, not return rate. You said return rate, I thought, "Oh 80% of them sent it back..."

Joe Sugarman: No, no...

Susan Bratton: But you were saying response, yeah.

Joe Sugarman: Yeah, it was return on - yeah, okay response rate. You're right. So and I'm surprised not too many people have ever used that concept where you oversell and then you come back and you say, "Okay, we've got more." Of course Picasso was a special name, and it was around the time shortly after he passed away and we had some pretty good connections with the Picasso estate. And they actually came to us and suggested we offer that. So, yeah, so we had some interesting times back then.

Susan Bratton: You've had some interesting times, and yet I also wonder what it's been like the last couple days at the ClickBank Exchange, because you gave your book to a 17 year old in the audience. I noticed there was a 19 year old in the audience, you know, Russell Brunson, I'm not sure how old he is but he's definitely still in his 20's, but he got up and done a segment. You know, there's a lot of young people doing Internet marketing and you've been here for the last couple days watching them speak. And I wonder, what do you think about the digital natives now who are marketing on the Internet, who are using a lot of your triggers, your teaching and other copywrite techniques. Are they exactly the same as their progenitors or are they an entirely different breed? What do you notice?

Joe Sugarman: Well first of all, let me say that the Internet is one of the most incredible mediums ever developed for a lot of reasons, but one of them is you can be now any age, you could be female, male, it doesn't matter, you could be, you know, any, it doesn't matter. It's just leveled the playing fields.

Susan Bratton: You still can't be a dog 'cause they can't type, but pretty much anything but that, right?

Joe Sugarman: Absolutely. Well, you know, there might be a dog in the future.

Susan Bratton: There might be a dog in there.

Joe Sugarman: But it's really leveled the playing fields. Now as far as people using my triggers or my information, oh it's been going on for years. I don't mind that at all. I'm really proud. I'm happy to influence people, and there are many times, here at ClickBank even, where people have come up to me and said, "Joe, you have influenced my life. I was going nowhere, I read your books, it changed my life." And I have examples of David Ogilvie for example is a fan of mine. I didn't realize this until somebody got his books after he passed away and saw that in his books, that one of his books was my book that I wrote 31 years ago. And he was so influenced by it he'd underline it and mark it and a lot of his ads were direct marketing oriented as well, even though they were consumer ads, but they came across like direct marketing. So that was a thrill because he's influenced millions of people, and I've influenced doctors who expanded their practices. Just thousands and thousands of people, and that to me is a thrill. And you don't like when somebody copies you, but I don't mind either. As long as they're doing it in an honest and forthright way, then by all means.

Susan Bratton: What is the part of your work that people misunderstand the most or abuse or incorrectly leverage and you see them making a mistake about it?

Joe Sugarman: Well you don't like to see dishonesty. You don't like to see people covering up a fault. But you're going to get all kinds, and what people have to realize is that the more honest you are, the more integrity you have, that comes through. If you're dishonest, even slightly, they're going to, the consumer picks that up. I mean and I'm not perfect, and in the beginning, the early stages I would cover up a few things, I wouldn't mention a few things, and I saw the consumer knew right away. They saw right through that. So yeah, you know, it's...

Susan Bratton: False alarm, false scarcity, whatever it might be.

Joe Sugarman: Yeah. Yeah, just be honest and have integrity. And I try to do that in my entire life. In other words, I try to help people, I try to be honest with people, and yeah.

Susan Bratton: Have you read any books - and we're winding down now - have you read any books recently that you though took the work that you've done or other work in persuasion or neuro marketing or psychology to the next level that you've really appreciated?

Joe Sugarman: Well I read recently a book by Malcolm Gladwell called Outliers.

Susan Bratton: Mm hmm, that was good, the 10,000 hours.

Joe Sugarman: Yeah, the...

Susan Bratton: Uh huh. Yeah, he's a good writer.

Joe Sugarman: The reason people are successful, and it's sometimes what you least expect.

Susan Bratton: Mm hmm.

Joe Sugarman: And I related to some of that. I mean 10,000 hours, I've been a copywriter almost most of my life, and so you would think that after a while I would really know what I'm doing. And so that was impressive. I enjoyed that book. And oh gee, there was a lot of books. I like the books that he's written.

Susan Bratton: Blink, that's a good one...

Joe Sugarman: Yeah...

Susan Bratton: Tipping Point...

Joe Sugarman: Yeah, Tipping Point, that was a good one. And then I like a lot of the old classics, you know, a lot of the... There are things that I learned from, I read as much as I can, but I know for example when the toll free number became really popular I eliminated the dotted lines around a coupon. And I read a book that said, "You should have dotted lines around a coupon because that will increase your sales," and I said...

Susan Bratton: Mm hmm, semiotics, the dotted line means a discount, mm hmm.

Joe Sugarman: Well, you know, I thought to myself, "Not a, that's not true." So but I said, "I'll do a test." And so I was able to do a test and I found out that I got a 30% higher return when I used those dotted lines around the information. And I realized I had been eliminating the dotted lines for two years and I thought back of all the money that I left on the table because I didn't have those dotted lines. And so it's helpful sometimes to read these books and to become an expert in whatever field you're in and to, just to have a library of really good information...

Susan Bratton: Yeah.

Joe Sugarman: that you can refer to.

Susan Bratton: Resources. I wondered if you'd read Sally Hogshead's book. I really like her recent books, it's called Fascinate: The Seven Triggers To Fascination and Persuasion. She looks at the limbic system and she says that the triggers are alarm, prestige, power, vice, mystique, and there's a couple more. I have to count them on my fingers to get them all. Did you read that book?

Joe Sugarman: It's funny, I didn't read the book but I did see her website and heard her talk, and well you know, she's talking about triggers. When I wrote my book there was nobody talking about triggers.

Susan Bratton: Yeah.

Joe Sugarman: So obviously it's become very common in the...

Susan Bratton: Absolutely.

Joe Sugarman: and the jargon. And as a matter of fact, in this recent budget crisis everybody was talking about triggers. You know, that certain things would trigger...

Susan Bratton: Yeah.

Joe Sugarman: a certain response, and so I thought that was kind of funny. So trigger's become a big word, and it's been used in a lot of different ways.

Susan Bratton: Absolutely. Well that's a legacy that you've created. So Joe, thank you so much for being on DishyMix. It was really nice to get to know you, to see you speak today and have my listeners get an opportunity to hear more about you.

Joe Sugarman: Well it's my pleasure. Thank you Susan for having me, and I hope I helped people in some of their thinking, and...

Susan Bratton: Oh I think you have Joe.

Joe Sugarman: Thank you.

Susan Bratton: Thank you. All right, I'm your host, Susan Bratton. I hope you've enjoyed today's episode with Joe Sugarman. I'll see you next week. Have a great day. Bye-bye.