Joseph Carrabis on Neuro-Economics and Reading Virtual Minds Part 2 of 2
Susan Bratton

Episode 188 - Joseph Carrabis on Neuro-Economics and Reading Virtual Minds Part 2 of 2

Joseph Carrabis is back with a two part series on communicating with customers and prospects using the latest in neuro-science, predictive intelligence, persuasion engineering.

As a cross-disciplinary translational researcher, Joseph studies how we process and learn information though any digital medium. Marketers use his ET engine to gather consumer behaviors via electronic connections.

  1. Want to know HOW someone is thinking in 10 seconds or less?
  2. Want to master Push Pull writing?
  3. Want to use story crafting to make social messages with meaning?

Tune in to this two part series to dive deep into the human personality, core and identity - yours and your customers!



Susan Bratton: Welcome to DishyMix. I’m your host, Susan Bratton, and you’re tuning in for part two of a two-part series with Joseph Carrabis. Joseph is the chief research officer and founder of Next Stage Evolution. He has a book out called Reading Virtual Minds. This is volume one, The Science and History. And essentially what we talked about in part one was how Joseph’s technology engine works to gather electronic behaviors and to help communicate your information to your customers in a way that your customers would like to have the information so that they can not only understand it but remember it and create value from it. And so we talked a lot about that and we’re going to move on to some other topic areas. So welcome Joseph.

Joseph Carrabis: Howdy.

Susan Bratton: Howdy, that’s the name of my horse.

Joseph Carrabis: I didn’t realize you were an equestrian.

Susan Bratton: Well it’s really my daughter’s. I end up taking care of him quite a bit, but she’s the real rider. I’m very late to horseback riding but learning it nonetheless.  

Joseph Carrabis: Yeah, Susan’s been – my Susan, my wife Susan – she’s been riding since she was three years old.

Susan Bratton: Oh yeah, I’m a little jealous of that. That sounds so nice. I wish I had learned to ski young and learned to ride young. Those are two things you got to do as a kid I think.

Joseph Carrabis: Yeah.

Susan Bratton: So when we were preparing for our time together on DishyMix I asked you what you think are the key issues for business professionals in the 21st century, and your answer was a single sentence. You said, “Understanding ubiquity in consumer’s lives.” And I hope you’ll expound on that for me now.

Joseph Carrabis: I’ll do my best. Ubiquity; people now are surrounded by more information… Let me rephrase that, they’re surrounded by different information than they had around them 50 years ago. 50 years from now there will be different information coming at them still. Information is ubiquitous in our environment. Information comes at us 365, 24/7 and there’s nothing we can do to stop it. Even when we’re asleep we’re still processing information, and a good healthy portion of our brain is from environmental concepts, still listening to the little movements in the forest. The collapsing twig, the leaf crinkling. So our minds, our brains are designed to process information, to take information in and respond to it in this incredible, incredible 360 degree, everything around us comes in. That’s ubiquity. Marketing needs to understand this. Marketing now is beginning to do, you know, “multi channel and 360 marketing”. And I think they’re borrowing the term for education. Education realized, yeah well, fairly recently, early 2000’s, that the best way to educate, to get information into somebody and have it stay there is to educate them 360. Have the information coming at them through every conceivable channel, have the message come to them tailored for that channel but the same message. So maybe the message on the radio obviously sounds a little bit different than it does to the audio track on the TV, but it’s the same message. If marketers understand what ubiquity is for a consumer, for a marketing group, for a demographic, then what that means in the marketing sense is where does that individual or group or demographic choose, willingly choose to get its information. They will understand ubiquity for that demographic, because a large portion of what our brains do is filter the information as “Okay, I heard that but it’s not important. I saw that but it’s not important. This doesn’t look important to me so I’ll ignore it.” And our conscious minds never even find out 90% of the stuff that’s going on in our environment but our brains do. Our brains process it. So if you understand ubiquity in the intended audiences environment, you, forgive the phrasing, but you own them, ‘cause you own their mind in their environment.

Susan Bratton: Thank you for that. And I think there’s another piece of that, and that’s this story crafting that you do.

Joseph Carrabis: Yes, mm hmm.

Susan Bratton: It feels like a natural segway to that for me here because you’re really talking about speaking to people in the way that they’d like to have the information, and I think that’s what we’ve been talking about all along. What we’re talking about at the highest level is relating to someone the way they like to be related to, and learning to get the queues from that, whether you’re getting them from ET, your analytics engine that measures these different data points of a person and tells you how they like to have information, or you’re doing your, you know, your ten second how someone is thinking and ten seconds, you know, getting into their world piece of it. It’s all the same thing. We’re all uniquely processing our information, and the more you can understand how an individual or a group of customers or prospects does that, the more effective you can be at connecting with them in the way that you want to. So you do another workshop, and it’s Social Media Messaging With Meaning. And you really talk a lot about stories and social elements. I had Dave Evans just recently onto the show, and we talked quite a bit about social objects, and I think that’s similar, the story crafting and the stories and social elements that you talk about. Can you relate a little bit of that workshop thinking to us here on this episode?

Joseph Carrabis: I’ll do my best. Story crafting deals with, as you had said earlier, communicating in a way that the audience will ultimately understand. And one of the best examples of that in our culture is that some movies are guy flicks and some movies are chick flicks. And if you actually, if you actually sit down and analyze these movies, as opposed to just watching them, what you’re seeing is story crafting done at a particular level. You’re finding all the separate, the separate elements that are unique to the feminine psyche versus the masculine psyche, that play into those psyches at very primitive and very recent evolutionary levels. So when you craft a story you want to make use of that entire spectrum of, you know, how does the emotional centers work, you know, female versus male? How do the societal aspects work, the recognition of peer group other, what we said in the previous podcast about strangerness and otherness? If something is similar to me, okay, it’s sameness. If something is different from me, it’s strangerness, it’s otherness. And there are different levels of how far you can go. In a movie that is designed for a primarily female audience, the story crafting deals a lot with sameness, because women create social networks very differently than men do. In a movie that deals with male concepts, story crafting involves strangerness and otherness, and then at the end sameness. I have found out what is different about you, so now I know what is the same about you. And again, that deals with the male concepts of social networks, but always what you’re working to do when you’re doing story crafting is, as we’ve been saying all along, is understanding the mind, understanding them, understanding their life, their situation, their environment. What are they going to bring this home to, and crafting for that. The more of that person’s life and environmental elements you can put into your communication, your story crafting, the longer your message will stay with them, and the more readily they’ll act upon it.

Susan Bratton: So in this idea of connecting with women in we’re all like each other, we’re a community, we’re a cluster with sameness, where for men you’re talking about this is how we’re different, and so this is the places we’re the same, that reminds me of the concept of familiarity and contempt that you use as the core for your workshop called Mastering Push/Pull Writing. Is that true? Is that kind of  what you’re teaching there?

Joseph Carrabis: Well I’m cautious with the word contempt, but yes, familiarity. When you master push/pull writing, again, this is part of story crafting, what you want to do is create the material so that it serves both purposes, it pulls you towards what you, pulls the reader towards what you want them to come towards and pushes them away from what you want them away from. And again, going back to what you said in the previous one, we’re not talking about towards and away from, two more elements in that 90 by 90 matrix. You communicate to someone who is a towards person by directing them towards their goal. Someone who’s an away from person, you direct them towards a goal by explaining how they can get away from the pain, the problem, the situation that is discomfiting to them. Push/pull writing makes use of these concepts.

Susan Bratton: Give me a couple more examples of push/pull writing.

Joseph Carrabis: We do an example in one of the classes, and what I do is I stand up and I pick a point across the room, and I say “I am going to walk towards that point”, and it’s a straight line because I’m going towards a goal. Okay, that goal is killing me, and I’m going towards it. And now I say, “Okay”, now I pick a point on the opposite wall, and I say, “Now I’m going to go away from where I am.” My goal is that point over there, but I’m going to go away from where I am. But because I’m going away from, because my mind is not focused on towards, my mind is focused on away from, I can walk in pretty much any direction so long as the next footprint, the next step takes me a little bit further away from where I was, I’m making headway, I’m getting away from. Now in push/pull writing you don’t have the time, you don’t have the ability, if you will, to give people the time to do that away from that casual walk, to get where you want them to go. So you have to kind of construct in their minds through your language, through your imaging, whatever, a thread from where they are to where you want them to be. And this thread allows the people who are away from to be pushed away from whatever the situation is in that they don’t want to be in and you don’t want them in, and pulled towards where they want to be and where you want them to be. So you verbally, you linguistically, psycholinguistically, semiautically through images, through fonts, whatever, whatever the medium is, through the video, you create this line of travel, of psychological landscape, of psychological distance. You do it really well and they’re not aware of it. But you help them traverse, you guide them. They don’t know that they’re being led, and that’s pulling them. They don’t know that they’re being escorted, and that’s pushing them. But nevertheless, they take that walk. They traverse that psychological distance. They walk the psychological landscape that you have created in your push/pull writing, in your story crafting. And the result of course is that they’re no longer where they were and they are where you want them to be, where they want to be.

Susan Bratton: And once again, that’s about getting into that world and understanding what their pain points are and what their hopes and desires are and writing that story ark and that narrative to walk them through. That makes sense. I understand what you’re saying now.

Joseph Carrabis: Can I add one thing here?

Susan Bratton: Yeah, please do.

Joseph Carrabis: Just to (unintelligible) you said earlier. You mentioned that our system monitors electronic behaviors, I appreciate that what our system actually monitors are human behaviors…

Susan Bratton: Thank you.

Joseph Carrabis: displayed through electronics. You know, our stuff works on Smart Phones, iPhones, all those kinds of devices. It’s how people behave when they receive and respond to information on a device – can be a computer, an iPhone, whatever. Okay, I’m not plugging iPhones, it just happens to come to mind. You know, so it’s the healing behavior. You demonstrate who you are when you drive. You’re demonstrating who you are, your human behavior through the car. Does someone speed? Does someone drive slow, you know? Susan and I, my wife and I love to take old back roads. We don’t like highways. We’re demonstrating a great deal of information about our psychological makeup through the automotive interface, if you will. So that’s what our system does. It understands human behaviors as demonstrated through electronic interfaces or automotive interfaces or whatever.

Susan Bratton: Thank you.

Joseph Carrabis: My pleasure.

Susan Bratton: A lot of what we’ve had a conversation with is understanding others, but you also have written about understanding ones self. And specifically I’m talking about a blog post you did about predicting your own future. What I noticed about the way you conduct this, you have a person conduce this exercise is that it reveals a little bit about their beliefs, limiting or otherwise, and I’m wondering if you can just briefly tell our listeners how they can predict their future.

Joseph Carrabis: Sure. First go and read the blog post. But predicting your own future, really I will say that it takes practice to do if you’re going to do it on your own. It’s best to do it with someone, preferably someone you feel very comfortable with, who you trust a great deal. And what you do is put yourself, get into a relaxing situation that’s a form of self-hypnosis, for lack of a better time, and most people can figure out what they’re going to be doing tomorrow. Provided that the asteroid doesn’t hit the planet and the sun doesn’t go nova, tomorrow’s going to be pretty much like today. So can you figure out what you’ll be doing tomorrow? Yeah. Okay, good. And how about two or three days out? Yeah. Okay. And what do you think is going to be changing between now and then? Oh, this and that. Okay, so if you understand those changes will occur how does it change what you’re going to be doing and how you’ll be doing yourself in three to five days. Yeah, okay, I can do that. And three to four to five months out. The weather will be different we hope. The earth will be going around the sun. So things will be different, the temperature will be different, you’ll probably be dressing different. How will you be then? Fine. Put it nine months out. Put it a year out. Put it three years out. Ten years out. And you always give this other information, you allow them, it goes back to story crafting in fact, and you know, knowing how people think, you ask them to bring in from their past experience what they believe will be true versus what they believe will have changed in their future experience. And it’s amazing what people will come up with and how accurate it’ll be, because if done properly the non-conscious, the deep non-conscious begins to exercise itself. It begins filling in the gaps that the conscious mind can’t put in there, that the conscious mind, you know, doesn’t have any access to information about what I’ll be doing in ten years. well believe or not the non-conscious mind is really good at that kind of stuff. For your listeners, you know, if you’ve read anything by Roger Penrose quantum consciousness, it’s pretty amazing stuff, and I’m not about to say that, oh, we can all become psychics. No, I’m just saying that the non-conscious mind will access information that the conscious mind simply does not know exists or has forgotten, and it will fill in the blanks. And, you know, you’ll have situations where people will realize that, they don’t realize this consciously, but the non-conscious does realize that, “You know what, that person who’s so important in my life, they’re not going to be important in my life. They’re not even going to be in my life in ten years, in twenty years. But this person who’s not important in my life, they will become important in my life.” Or they’ll realize, you know, non-consciously realize, “I really don’t like what I’m doing. But I know what I could do to change that. I know what I could do something I do enjoy doing”, and the non-conscious fills that in and gives them the freedom to do that. And we’ve, you know, we’ve done this exercise with people before and, you know, it really is lifting a veil, if you will, the veil of the present from their eyes and giving them the courage to go and explore things that they’ve always wanted to explore, which is very rewarding to me.

Susan Bratton: I really like the idea of projecting out into the future and visualizing what you think your life will be like because it gives you a good roadmap for examining what you’re doing right now and the trajectory that you’re on. I asked you a question before we were getting ready for the show, and I said if one press outlet would feature you which would it be and what would the headline or story be? And you said the outlet would be morphogenetic fields and the headline would be “becoming”.

Joseph Carrabis: Yes.

Susan Bratton: What the hell are you talking about? Some evolutionary development thing I think, but I don’t know.

Joseph Carrabis: Excellent question. Morphogenetic fields are what you were talking about earlier – visual, auditory, kinesthetic, vestibulary, but it’s those things on steroids so to speak. Again, that the concern of perhaps alienating some of your listening public, human beings communicate and are capable of communicating in ways that science is just now becoming aware of. We are able to track with our technology what’s called vomeronasal, and that’s one of those things that’s kind of like…

Susan Bratton: It’s like the smell of your people, right?

Joseph Carrabis: Well, it’s more than the smell of your people. It lets people know, it’s how animals determine if one another’s in heat.

Susan Bratton: Yeah.

Joseph Carrabis: So if you find somebody attractive, that’s your vomeronasal sense kicking in.

Susan Bratton: Right, like you don’t want to marry and have babies with people who smell super like you. You want them to be slightly different so that you spread out the gene pool.

Joseph Carrabis: Right. Very good. Another one is PNI, which is Psychoneruoimmunological sense. That’s one of the most amazing senses people don’t realize that they have, but it’s the sense that allows you in California to pick up who knows what clues, we’re really not sure what those clues are just yet. But your body automatically responds to an outbreak of some disease somewhere else, geographically separated from you. But your psychoneuroimmunological sense, which is the only other part of your body that actually has a working memory independent of the brain memory, will recognize something somehow and respond to it. Morphogenetic fields are all these things together. It’s how people communicate without really realizing they communicate. It is that thing where you look at the phone because you know someone’s going to call you and you know who they were. A lot of our Next Stage-ologists, we almost make it into a game to be honest with you. And the game basically works like, “Does Joseph know that I need to talk with him?” And how long is it from my sitting in my chair saying to myself “Joseph, I need to talk to you” or “Susan, I need to talk to you” or “Charles, I need to talk to you” – Charles is our CTO – before they get a call from on of us. And yes this goes into different classes we teach, Know How Somebody’s Thinking In 10 Seconds or Less and all those things, messaging. But it’s the morphogenetic field that you set up a vibration. Is this ESP? Oh god, I hope not. Is there a scientific basis for it? There seems to be enough. Do we make use of it in our daily lives, meaning people in general, not just myself? Yes we do. It’s called intuition. So when I say that I want the morphogenetic field to be the outlet, it’s that I want people to just automatically understand, automatically know, automatically be aware of. Aware of what? Aware of becoming. Not me becoming, but everyone becoming. Each second of our lives we are different than who we were the second before. We can’t help but be. There’s different information, there’s more information. This conversation we’re having is changing me in ways I can’t begin to count, but I know are there because I can feel the changes inside my body, I can feel the changes in my respiration, I can feel the changes in my abdomen, I can feel the different tensing in the muscles in my thighs, in my back, in my neck. So I know this conversation is changing me. We’re all changing. We are all becoming. And if, for one moment in time, one moment, that’s all, everyone had the ability to know, to understand, that they are becoming, the person next to them is becoming. The person behind them on the subway or the train is becoming. What a gift. What a gift to know that you are in the process of becoming you constantly, to be aware of that, to take charge of it. Rather than being passive, but to intentionally say, “I want to be a better person. I want to be the kind of person that other people want to befriend. Not because I can give them money, I can teach them something, because I can do something for them. But because I am becoming. They can befriend me because they know that I want to be better. And by being my friend they will help me be better, and I will help them be better.” Obviously I spent too much time in the 60’s.

Susan Bratton: So morphogenetics is this feeling, the feeling in sensing and reading and smelling and, like the cellular connection that you have with people, it’s that whole dimension, and it’s the dimension in time and space so that you’re also aware that everything you’re doing with someone, to someone, near someone is affecting them and it’s being more tuned into that.

Joseph Carrabis: Yes, we are all connected. We can’t help but be. That’s the way our brains are wired. So being aware of the morphogenetic field, of that wiring, of that interconnectedness, and by being aware of it, becoming a part of it – wow! That’s tremendous power.

Susan Bratton: I really like that whole motion. I’ve been reading a lot of books on intuition trying to figure out how to develop my intuition because I feel people. So much of the way that I interact with people is I get in their world, I feel what’s happening with them, I can feel their body in my body, and I really like that whole world of intuition and feeling and sensing and all of it. So do you have any recommendations for me, because I was going down the path of talking about it as intuition, I never even know about this idea of morphogenetics? Is there anything that you can direct us to if we’re interested in that?

Joseph Carrabis: I believe it’s the concept and the study of it has only been around for about ten, fifteen years. So I would be cautious to offer direction only because no definitive voices, no definitive information has made itself apparent as yet. It’s still something that people are experimenting with. One of the ways that it has shown up kind of amusingly in popular culture is Men Who Stare At Goats.

Susan Bratton: Yeah, I never saw that. That’s a movie, right?

Joseph Carrabis: Yeah, it’s an amusing, as Susan, my wife Susan and I say, it’s an amusing see it once, never again movie. And I don’t believe anywhere in that movie they say morphogenetics, but it basically deals with the supposed intelligence community experiments with remote viewing and stuff like that.

Susan Bratton: Oh wait, was that with Brad Pitt?

Joseph Carrabis: George Clooney.

Susan Bratton: George Clooney. I did see that movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh huh.

Joseph Carrabis: So, you know, all of that is becoming, as soon as something becomes a movie or a TV show you know it’s in public consciousness in one way or another.

Susan Bratton: Definitely.

Joseph Carrabis: You know, as far as, you know, a place to start reading, a good place to get the pro and the con, the pro and the con is a set of videos entitled A Glorious Accident. It was a PBS series. And one of the blogs that I do, The Analytic Psychology is subtitled Where Meeting Of Minds Meets A Glorious Accident, in homage to that video series. A Glorious Accident by PBS, if you can’t find it at your local library find a different library. But that’s a good pro and con of it because they discuss it at length. You have six, I believe it was six, extremely intelligent and extremely accessible people talking about a wide variety of topics, and morphogenetic fields is one and you get the pro and the con. So start there.

Susan Bratton: I’ll do it. Thank you very much.

Joseph Carrabis: My pleasure.

Susan Bratton: All right, last question for you.

Joseph Carrabis: Yes.

Susan Bratton: We could do this for a really long time. I know that you, you talk about raccoons and fox and skunk and possum and deer, wild animals. You call them the old ones. You’ve been working on getting them to eat from your hand, learning about voice, posture, muscle tone, facial tone when you’re trying to connect with wild animals. What is it about wild animals that you’re, what’s happening with you and thinking about wild animals? Why are you interested in them? Why are you worried about it? Why do you want them to eat from your hand? What’s going on in your world there?

Joseph Carrabis: Well it’s not that I want them to eat from my hand. Why I’m interested in animals? Here’s a great insight to your listeners and probably something that’s obvious from reading Virtual Minds. Animals, except for the higher primates, are incapable of lying to you. They can’t deceive you. The higher primates can, but raccoon, you know, woodland life can’t, so you’re either accepted or you’re not accepted. And the goal of getting them to eat from my hand is really to find out if I have the ability to become so raccoon-like that raccoons do not fear me. Do they trust me? Well I don’t think the raccoon actually has a concept of trust, but what it will recognize is that I will not harm it. People that have been to the Next Stage Evolution page on Facebook in the pictures section or whatever it’s called, we have a lot of pictures of the wildlife. Rocalina was the first raccoon, and she brought her kits to me for me to feed everybody, and that was really something. When she decided that I was safe enough, this huge creature by her standards, was safe enough that she would let her kits eat from me. So Jerry, Surge, Maxine and Constantina then started coming around on their own as they matured, and then Constance, who’s – we can’t figure out if Constance is the aunt or grandmother to the kits – but she comes around now. And Buckminster, the buck, the young buck, he actually is at the point where he’ll stick around me. He won’t take from my hand so much, but he will stick around me and come up close to me to see what I’m doing. We also have a couple of owls, some owlets that are friendly enough to perch on us. You don’t want a bigger owl to perch on you; they can get pretty heavy. And then there’s Pierre and Yvette, the skunks. Pierre loves to, oh, he loves dog food. And he’ll come up and just take it out of my hand. And if I don’t get the dog food out there fast enough he just kind of taps his little paw, you know, “Skunk out here. Come on. Waiting.” And the possums, Opie and Opette. So it’s really an exercise in establishing communications, establishing repertoire. And as we spoke about I believe in the previous episode, I offered my hand first. I showed I was vulnerable to them. I allowed myself to be in a situation where a wild animal could’ve torn me to shreds. Or kicked me to death in the case of the deer. But by making myself vulnerable first, I established a communication which was “I am here, I am present, I am real. Would you be real with me”, which in the sense of a woodland animal, with the old ones, it is being raccoon. Being a raccoon, being raccoonish. So this human, this two legger is putting out cookies and peanuts. And, you know, the joke used to be with Racalina when she brought her kits out, “He’s a human, he’s okay. But don’t let him touch you. You don’t know where his hands have been.” And the neighbors get a kick out of it. They love coming around to see me feed these animals. And someone said, “Aren’t you afraid that, you know, they’ll attack you?” And the answer is no. So long as I remember they are animals, they are raccoons and skunk and possum and deer and owls, you know, everything else, no. I’m not afraid. Because as long as I remember that that’s who they are and they obviously know who I am, our communication is set. The minute I begin to think of them as something other than what they are, the minute I begin to try to communicate to them that I am something other than who I am, the core -- because with an animal you must demonstrate your core, you have to – then everything is safe. We’re doing great. That’s the way it is with human communications too, except we have a lot of different games and social moors and ceremonies we wrap around it. But it’s still the same thing. You want to get the most done you can with people? At some point you have to reveal your core. And then it’s an incredibly rich two-way communication.

Susan Bratton: It’s so interesting that you say that, and thank you for that. It was really fun for me to picture you – ‘cause I’m a visual – feeding all of those animals and I can really see why it’s very satisfying for you. I think it’s the same thing for me when I have Howdy, our horse, or my dog and I’m touching them, I’m petting them, I’m stroking them, I’m grooming them, whatever I’m doing and I’m just kind of communing with them, and we’re just connected and communicating through non-verbal, maybe it’s morphogenetics and…

Joseph Carrabis: Exactly.

Susan Bratton: That’s neat. I really like that a lot. Thank you. This has been a lot of fun to talk to you about all of these different topics. And the thing that I got out of all of the last two hours of conversation with you, part one and part two, is actually something that will maybe surprise you, and it really was this last wrap up that brought it forward for me. And it comes from some work that I’m doing we’re, a three-part e-book and audio book series that we’re publishing for Personal Life Media with Dr. Patti Taylor. It’s called The Seduction Trilogy. And, you know, you talk about persuasion, right. You’re doing, what, your company tagline uses persuasion engineering in it. And we have just published three books – one is called Seduce Her Tonight, the other one The Seduction Accelerator and there’s a third – but those two explain the four keys to seduction. And seduction is persuasion. It’s a sensual level of persuasion, and we actually commissioned these books to be written by Dr. Patti primarily for men who are in a lot of pain in their long-term relationships, their marriages where they feel a disconnection from the intimacy, both physical and emotional intimacy that they seek. They want it and they try to get it through sex, but it doesn’t always work that way for them to get what they’re looking for, and we teach them how to come back into a relationship with their long-term partner and have (unintelligible) broach the subject in a way that women need to be communicated about sex and seduction and sensuality with their partners. And the four keys are making small offers and using something called erotic vigilance, which is essentially getting in her world, understanding what’s going on with her, and then being vulnerable and having a vision about where you want it to go. And vulnerability was, when I asked you about the handshake, we trust you and want you to trust us and here’s something vulnerable about us in getting that reciprocity, the same way that you established a trust with woodland animals, you know. It’s all the same. It’s all about showing your core instead of your personality and being vulnerable and allowing an opening to the vulnerability with another person, to establish a deeper level of intimacy and communication based on the trust of showing who you really are. So whether you’re petting or feeding a raccoon dog food or you’re trying to connect more deeply with your wife after 20 years or whatever it might be, or you’re coming to connect with someone on a website to communicate something that you hope will help their lives, it all seems to revolve around this notion of vulnerability.

Joseph Carrabis: Exactly. And let me bring the circle, or close the circle if you will, what you just said about the levels of seduction, vulnerability, making yourself open, exposing the core. I realize that our technology is complex to many people. I understand that. And the best way to get around it is our technology allows material to very rapidly establish that trust, to understand the core, to offer the handshake. You don’t have to worry about the 90 by 90 matrix that the technology creates to do this. It really is all about, you know… And I’m not just saying this to promote our technology, this is what has to be done. Any type of technology that does this, in my opinion, needs to understand these ceremonies, the handshake, the vulnerability, the persuasion, the seduction, if that is how people communicate person to person, that’s how marketing must communicate – marketing material, collateral material. You know the other way that – just to really emphasize this for your listeners – Critical Mass has recently asked me to become their neuro marketer in residence, bring all of this stuff to them and of course to their clients and integrating it into their practices. So number one, if your listeners want to get in touch with me probably the easiest thing for them to do is get in touch with Critical Mass and that’ll get directed to me. But also there’s the fact that there is an increasing understanding in the marketing world, in the agency world, that communication is more than words on a page, is more than an image, is more than a great flash. It really is a deep understanding of, an appreciation of who people are, how people are who they are, how people demonstrate themselves, how they interact with their environment – the external environment and the internal environment. If you really want to be someone’s friend, ie, convince them that your product is better than somebody else’s, you first have to establish that friendship, that vulnerability, that handshake. You have to demonstrate yourself being you before they will allow you to see them being them.

Susan Bratton: Nice! That’s a perfect ending. Joseph Carrabis, thank you so much. It’s pure joy to have hours worth of conversation with you. You’re such a lovely human being, and I find you personally fascinating and delightful. If you would like to get more information about Joseph, you can read his blog at You can follow him at Twitter @josephcarrabis, c-a-r-r-a-b-i-s. You can go to You can sign up for Joseph’s newsletter, The Next Stage Regular. You can call Critical Mass, your friends at Critical Mass. I’m sure as a DishyMix listener you know someone there, and if you don’t you can find Joseph online. Joseph, thank you so much for everything.

Joseph Carrabis: My pleasure.

Susan Bratton: Mine too. I’m your host, Susan Bratton. Thanks for listening to this episode of DishyMix. It’s part two of a two-part series. Have a great day and I’ll look forward to connecting with you next week. Take care.