Sex – Tantra and Kama Sutra
Francesca Gentille

Episode 39 - I WORSHIP YOUR SCENTED ROSE with Stuart Sovatsky

I WORSHIP YOUR SCENTED ROSE with Stuart Sovatsky, PHD. Mediator—Therapist—Yoga Researcher—Sacred Chanting Leader - Eco-Developer, author of "Eros, Consciousness & Kundalini" and "Your Perfect Lips"

In this episode, Stuart seeks to charm Francesca by admiring her as a deeply scented blossoming rose, and points to the mutual worship of gender as the source of connection and passion. Learn about the history of Tantra and how practicing it today can inspire creative solutions to handle past & future upsets. Experience the embodied poetry of Eros. . .

"that dusky taste of your interior thigh, my forever and ever, how can I leave you...
where else is there to go?



Francesca Gentille: Welcome to Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra: Bringing You the Soul of Sex. I’m your host, Francesca Gentille, and with me today is Stuart Sovatsky. His books include Words From the Soul, Eros, Consciousness and Kundalini and The Poetic Work on Tantric Sexuality: Your Perfect Lip. Stuart has a PhD from Princeton University in Religion and he has an experience both a physical embodied experience of this work and a scholarly basis in this work that might my intent today is to help us get clearer on the path that we’re following and how to follow it.

Stuart Sovatsky: For thousands of years in India and many societies, virginity ‘til the age of marriage at 25 was not thought of as a repressive problem, and that period of time was thought to be needed to mature the glands of the body to some type of capacity to combine love and sex.

Stuart Sovatsky: If I’m to be sincere instead of just demonstrating that something starts to develop between you and I and that’s what awaits anyone I think. It’s not so complicated that it’s very far away. It’s that it’s so near at hand that if we don’t pick it up we won’t get into it.

Stuart Sovatsky: And I think when it gets to a high level where someone becomes irresistible to us and when that’s mutual, but when two people feel irresistible to one another and let that be, then they’re going to start to reorganize their lives to accommodate that they’ve met this person, and that, and after the age of 25 on, 30, 35 and later, is a challenge.

Francesca Gentille: Welcome to Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra: Bringing You the Soul of Sex. I’m your host, Francesca Gentille, and with me today is Stuart Sovatsky. Stuart, I barely know where to start with his accolades. His books include Words From the Soul, Eros, Consciousness and Kundalini, and The Poetic Work on Tantric Sexuality: Your Perfect Lip. But more than that, the reason I brought Stuart here today for us is that Stuart is a scholar. Stuart has a PhD from Princeton University in Religion. Stuart was initiated by a guru. And he has an experience of both a physical embodied experience of this work and a scholarly basis in this work, that my intent today is to help us get clearer on the path that we’re following and how to follow it. So welcome Stuart.

Stuart Sovatsky: Thank you. Thank you for this great invitation.

Francesca Gentille: And, my pleasure. I want to, you know, give people some tips and practices by the end they can work on from this amazing body of work. But the scholar in my wants to know just a little bit about this body of work that we call, sometimes we call tantra, sometimes we call sacred sexuality, and first of all, what I want to ask you about is that what we practice so commonly in American tantra, now does that have any relationship to Buddhist tantra or Hindu tantra or Daoism or the Kama Sutra?

Stuart Sovatsky: Surely it does. I think the one element that you have to add back in is a very big cultural difference that from thousands of years in India and many societies, virginity ‘til the age of marriage at 25 was not thought of as a repressive problem. It was the way that people live their lives, and that period of time was thought to be needed to mature the glands of the body to some type of capacity to combine love and sex. And we have a culture that really wouldn’t, that would be a very minority viewpoint that we’re not ready for sex, I mean we’ve heard it but to live it out is so rare, that we’re not ready ‘til we’re like 25, and that all the while that you’re being virginal that your body is maturing and getting erotically mature. So that has to be assumed whenever we read anything about eastern tabs. It doesn’t make its way into the books, but they’re social structure has always been organized at the first 25 years people were, it was called bramacharia, which is always translated as celibacy but what it, it’s helpful to know that that was their starting point, was a very, well I don’t know, it seems to me that a more matured body that in western culture, yeah we may be masturbating and having sex at the age of 13 or 14, and it would never occur within those ancient cultures…

Francesca Gentille: Wow.

Stuart Sovatsky: to do such a thing, it’s so, it’s hard for us to think, “Well what difference does that make? They’re just not having as much sexual pleasure.” No, no, no, the whole foundation of Yoga is simply called Rasa Yana, which is not a well-known term but it’s, for five hundred years it was probably, well lets say three hundred years, it was synonymous with what we call Yoga, and Rasa, or the juices of the body, and Yana is the art of cultivating, so this is the art of cultivating the juices or the hormones of the body. So, we know our emotions are related to our hormones, our sex desire, all kinds of emotionality’s related to our, related to our emotionality, so they were developing a body for at least 10 to 15 more years than most of us in the west think about it….

Francesca Gentille: And so when you’re saying this as well, it’s not saying, oh, you know, I’m not going to be aware of my sexual energy or my arousal…

Stuart Sovatsky: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: I’m actually training myself through the, my breasts, through my, the body stretching in various ways, that massage various glands in my body, I’m actually training myself to be a choice in how I use my erotic and energy and feeling more alive in all of life, right?

Stuart Sovatsky: Exactly. You’re just choosing, maturing it, it was very, it took 25 years to get to that maturity level. I mean still to this day, the divorce rate in India is barely 5 or 10 percent. In America it’s 47. So they’ve retained a kind of stability that is built into how they grew up, grew themselves up as children and adolescence.

Francesca Gentille: And, you know, I was just, I have to throw in a couple things: one is the most beautiful, young, aging women I’ve ever seen all practice Yoga daily. I mean categorically.

Stuart Sovatsky: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: And that’s one piece. The other piece that I’m going to throw in is that I have friends that are from India and sadly there was a break in the training of sacred sexuality as the British came in…

Stuart Sovatsky: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: and they don’t, they now have their own archaeological shards of this grand tradition that they come from, and what it, what they are left with, male and female, is the ones that I know personally is a deep sensuality, just this, the celebration of senses in the body is interwoven in the culture, and they’re no longer given that Kama Sutra, the, you know, the sacred teachings or even the Yoga’s, they’re not given those on a regular basis on how to work with their erotic energy formally or how to formally bring it to one another, and they do have, you know, I would say a natural inclination and a natural celebration of the senses that we don’t have and within those arranged marriages that don’t divorce is a really, really powerful cultural context that says you can’t divorce and a lot of fooling around behind doors, so I just want to say it’s less perfect today than we might think and that’s not, we don’t need to throw the baby out with the bath water just because they’re no longer in perfection, we can still look at what are these ancient teachings and how can they service today. So here we are Stuart where, you know, I’m passed 25, I’m a fabulous 50, and lets say I’ve never done Yoga, lets say that I’m just beginning to explore my sexuality and maybe even mourning a little bit that at 30 or at 35 or at 40 or at 45 that I’ve fumbled through my sexuality for most of my life and that its never really been fulfilling, how do these principles help me today?

Stuart Sovatsky: I think it, you know, it’s a partnership situation that makes it so challenging. If it’s just meditation and doing it on one’s own it’s just a matter I think of keeping up your schedule with practice. But to have that kind of trust with another person where you grant them some, that the best quality to be that which you’re trying to partner with, and that you believe that they are also trying to help you cultivate the best in yourself, and that’s where each person, it’s not just up to how I think about myself, it’s how you think about me. So if I do things to dis, hurt you in any way, you know, you constantly have to clear up any types of breakdowns because it’s not just my opinion of myself or how well I’m doing my practices, but it’s also how you feel about me, likewise how I feel about you and then it’s a matter of do we each believe the love that we think that we’re hearing about. Do we feel as loveable as our partner wants us to feel, that’s how loveable he or she is to us. So there’s this intricacy in the partner paths based on if you’re of the two people able to be in love with one another, and I think in our modern age, you know, to have it be in the center of ones life and think that career and home building comes out of a beautiful romantic love relationship, and that that is the priority, and often it’s hard to even manage a schedule that honors that priority.

Francesca Gentille: You know Stuart I want to talk more about how we both, you know, how our individual practice of sacred sexuality informs, can inform our whole life, how we work it with a partner, how we invite them into this with us, and how some of the ancient practices apply, maybe a little bit more information about that, when we come back from a break and a word from our fabulous sponsors who by, by connecting with our sponsors you help shows like this continue to exist in our world. And we’ll be back in just a moment.

Francesca Gentille: So Stuart, we went from there’s an ancient practice in India that helps people train to, until they’re 25 and really give them a foundation before they start in their relationship…

Stuart Sovatsky: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: and we don’t have that. And then we went to it’s complicated…

Stuart Sovatsky: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: because, you know, we’re not just doing our own practice, we’re, you know, dealing with someone else who we might be hurting and might, you know, not be enrolled in practicing with us if there’s shit in the way. So, where do we go from here that can, you know, help people? Yeah.

Stuart Sovatsky: Yeah, yeah, my favorite line from the scriptures is “Where man and woman worship one another is the play of the divine”, and so it’s getting into a conversation with someone where you’re being very adoring. Let me just read you a line from Your Perfect Lips: “On the romantic approach begins easily, your eyes, my wonder, your lips, my hunger, your wisdom, my mystery, I love you, yes, ‘til death do us, yes and yes again, yes, yes the only word I know, that dusky taste of your interior thigh, my forever and ever, I will never leave you for where else is there to go.” So I think that switching gears just now from, you know, kind of an intellectual conversation to actual erotic poetry, you can feel the difference and it’s very easy to start talking like that, to start, for me to say, your voice is filled with music Francesca, did you know that? Did you know that your laugh is like, it sparkles? Did you know?

Francesca Gentille: No.

Stuart Sovatsky: I mean, hear it right now. It’s so obvious, you know, that it’s just like colorful light sparkling off of everywhere. You know, and so if I’m to be sincere instead of just demonstrating that, something starts to develop between you and I and that’s what awaits anyone, I think. It’s not that it’s so complicated that it’s very far away. It’s that it’s so near at hand, but if we don’t pick it up it, we won’t get into it. But yeah, if I start to tune into you as a woman and this mystery that’s between the two of us on, ostensibly it’s a phone interview, you know, there’s a mystery here where you and I fall in love and spend every conceivable minute with each other, totally into each other and out lives blossoming as a result of this phone call. And that’s the erotic world. Everything else to me is kind of, something else could be connected, but when you start going in that direction, yeah, you are dependent that I meant what I said, that there’s something beautiful happening between us. And then if you say, “I feel it too”, then I have a choice to, if I believe you, and if I start to believe in you and I say, “You know, you’re making me feel like, wow, you’re the one I’ve been waiting for, and you are the one I’ve been waiting for, and I can, everything about you makes me think that.” If we were to keep that interaction going back and forth it would just be a life of heaven on earth…

Francesca Gentille: Yeah.

Stuart Sovatsky: And when we would enact it physically, not just verbally, my touching of your body would be in total awe of your beauty and you would be allowing, so to speak, my touch to evoke pleasures and meaning and reciprocation, and I would let it be not just a, you know, we’re just here having a little dalliance, no, this is the beginning of the rest of our lives, then that path is superior to any other mode of interaction in my opinion. And helping couples to get back in that group, just is as simple as helping them to give each other beautiful compliments, and then the response to that compliment is a thank you, and then the other person is saying, “Wow, that made me feel great that you appreciated my compliment.” It starts to just unfold very naturally and the body’s come along for the ride, they’re all arousing, they want to participate with the discussion ‘cause it’s so loving and appreciative, and it goes back to that line in the tantra scriptures where man and woman worship one another is the play of the divine.

Francesca Gentille: And I think, and let me just breathe that in. And is that, what’s in the way of that? And it’s very present for me right now.

Stuart Sovatsky: Isn’t it? I know, when you start…

Francesca Gentille: is, you know, is courage. You know, courage is in the way of that. We have a culture that, you know, teaches us to suppress our emotions, and in suppressing our emotions we suppress the vulnerability of connection and the shattering power of love, because if I love you, if you love me, if, you know, if as human beings, if we open to love, loss is right next to that. Loss is right next to love. Because even if, you know, if it was you and I Stuart and we were running off into the sunset together, one of us could die. Loss is interwoven with love. And I find that for myself it takes an enormous amount of courage to keep opening to the love that I feel for someone, and that can be the store clerk, that can be you on the phone, that can be my beloved who I’ve known for years, is that part of me wants to go unconscious, part of me wants to be like kind of dumbed down, numbed down, safe, little mechanistic, you know, by live, die in the world, you know, and, but the, what I’m hearing is that, is the true devotional path that, the tantric path, the Daoist sexual path, the Buddhist tantric path, it invites us to have the courage to keep breaking our heart wide open.

Stuart Sovatsky: It feels a lot better, yeah, and, in law, I mean we don’t want to frighten ourselves prematurely, you know, just because it could be tomorrow, but we don’t know that one of us would die, but so in this living moment we have to, I think it gets very focused on, yes, are we bringing up topics that aren’t incongruence with the love that’s being exchanged, we frighten ourselves with something that isn’t quite even happening right now. And so, yes, we want to be aware that, yeah, that death will happen, but it could be we need to rehab our concept of loss, that if you love really well, then instead of it being a horrible loss only, it’s a compete celebration of what we shared. And so it’s not only loss that we deal with, but it’s also the challenge of sustaining the creativity together that also I think freaks people out. And I think that, you know, if your life isn’t set up to just suddenly run off with someone, then you have to make all those changes, even moving closer to them or changing your schedule, you know, then it feels like, “Well, what if this doesn’t work?”, you know, we start to frighten ourselves with the what if’s.

Francesca Gentille: That could be, you know, that could be, I agree, there could be a premature fear, and yet there’s kind of this balance of staying present. I want to go deeper into that concept of awe…

Stuart Sovatsky: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: You know, that concept of awe, that concept of devotion, you know, ongoing creativity and, you know, being in the and both ness, there’s a saying that “the divine is found in paradox, in the and both”, if there’s a deep loss and a huge celebration, there’s a shattering of who I am and a death of who I am in love and then there’s a rebirth of who I am in love that’s amazing. And so the and both ness of this healing transformative journey, that sexual, erotic, embodied soulful love is, when we come back from a break and a word from our sponsors.

Francesca Gentille: Welcome back to Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra: Bringing You the Soul of Sex. I’m so excited to be here with Stuart as we’re discussing how to bring those ancient tantric Daoist devotional principles into life, and of course he’s giving some of them to me, which feels so delicious, and what is it, you know, what is that awe, what is that devotion, what is that creativity, how do we practice it, and we’re not talking a compliment that like, “Oh Stuart, you know, you just, I just so enjoy interviewing you. You’re a really great guy”, that I might kind of say to everyone. We’re talking about something else when we say complimenting, it’s not just the, kind of the throw away compliment.

Stuart Sovtasky: Yeah, you have, if you’re really listening, I guess the emphasis in the word ‘really’, but you’ll hear something that you actually admire. Like I heard your laugh, and when I heard your laugh it really was sparkly to me. You know, so I think, yeah, we’re waiting in our interactions when something really strikes us, and I think when it get to a high level where someone becomes irresistible to us, that word is very powerful I think. Where you’ve granted someone else so much beautiful good qualities in the midst of whatever else they may have that is, you know, difficult, but you still let them be irresistible to you and when that’s mutual, when you have become completely irresistible to another person, yeah, we’ve used the word ‘vulnerable’, but I think it doesn’t quite get the buoyant power, it’s a little bit scarier than it needs to be, but when two people feel irresistible to one another and let that be, then they’re going to start to reorganize their lives to accommodate that they’d met this person, and that, and after the age of 25 on, 30, 35 and what later, is a challenge ‘cause people have a pretty well set up life, they may have kids and they’re, you know, looking for a second partner. So a lot of things have to be changed. And it makes it harder to live out that high moment where two people are willing to grant that each of, the person they’re with is completely irresistible to them. And then what tantra would say is when you’re looked at by someone who finds you irresistible, that your glands begin to secrete very sweet tasting chemistries, that we’re not, we’re, our chemistry itself can be modified by the love that we receive from someone else, and we will start to be more irresistible, and if we, and it’ll make us look out of our eyes and we will see someone as if they are more irresistible. So it gets into a very positive spiraling cycle of irresistibility, makes each of us even more irresistible and drawn to one another, and you just, and then you taste wonderful to one another, and that’s when you cross over to a much more nutritious form of complimenting, the language. Language is still pretty abstract. It’s lovely, it can be poetic. But when you actually are tasting the body of someone who you find irresistible, who also finds you irresistible and they find a taste of your body to be the most delicious thing in the world, then your body will secrete even deeper secretions, these Rasa’s in Sanskrit. These are juices of life and they will pass through your body, your own body and come to the surface and be ingested, be sucked or licked or licked off by your partner, but before that it change, transforms all the cells of your own body. That’s why they say what man and woman worship each other is the play of the divine, because the chemistries come out of our glands that really could be deeply hidden, but if someone starts not just finding us attractive and wonderful, but actually starts to feel like they’re worshipping our body, our sounds that we make, the way that we are as a human being, that they feel like they’re with the most divine miracle that they’ve ever seen, that if, in being treated that way will secrete the chemistries that will be shared and that takes the communication to a chemical level, not just a verbal level.

Francesca Gentille: I love that, that adoring and worshipping one another can be, you know, it’s nutritious as well as, you know, just emotionally delicious, and that this is the way that our bodies are meant to be designed to work with each other, to bring health, that’s what the Daoists believe is that the way that we bring this adoration and this sexuality to one another brings us physical health.

Stuart Sovatsky: Yes, we’re, the whole universe is designed based on gender. Straight people it’s male, female, but there’s always that gender attraction, whatever one’s orientation, the whole universe is, it depends on, certainly for procreativity, depends on people getting together. And now it flips over, instead of it being complicated and all these problems and our cultures and set up for it, it’s like that’s just a little flea on the back of an elephant, it doesn’t hold any power over the real power of the forces of nature. Everything wants us to get together. Everything wants us to bond. All of my testosterone and your estrogen, all of it is waiting for that connection, and then it will go for a whole lifetime of generating chemistries that will be food for one another, whether it’s we taste it or it’s the glint in your eye or the sound of your voice or my voice, everything completely works, and there’s, now the path is so broad that nothing seems like it isn’t on it that’s to be helpful including breakdowns of communication ‘cause, yeah, it could be fear that you’re helping each other with or some doubt, but, you know, you’re growing. Instead of taking it seriously and saying, “Well, well lets break up, this is obviously not a good relationship”, no, you know, even the troubles are part of opportunities to get closer, and obviously all the good stuff, the taste, the sound of a voice, all the compliments, and then people do, they start getting more beautiful so it’s even easier to compliment each other.

Francesca Gentille: So there’s a positive power, positive cycle of noticing, and this is where it comes into that spiritual practice, why they all these things the tantra’s and why they call the, you know, in the Daoist sexual healing, more, why they call them spiritual practices, because, you know, I don’t know about you but I’m kind of lazy, you know, I get caught up in my everyday world. It takes something from me to remind myself to just even stop and notice my beloved and say, “You know, those are really cute ears. I would like to lick those ears.” You know, to just take, to take that moment, and especially if there’s some trouble or especially if there’s some challenges to still take a moment in that breath, you know, earlier in the show I breathed. And I’m going to do it again. To really relax the jaw and the belly, and take a moment to breathe in who someone is, what they’re being, the preciousness, and I personally love the whole life/death thing because it keeps me conscious. You know, this may be the only depthful conversation that I ever have with Stuart. How can I open to that and appreciate him and, you know, just be moved by his life and the study that he’s done and the work that he’s done that allows him to be here with me? How can I really, you know, take that in and open to that, and to me it’s part of the preciousness, you know, that loss or, you know, death or grieving doesn’t necessarily need to be overwhelmingly fearful, that it’s something, it’s almost like that sweet/sour, it’s I want to remind myself however I want to do it. This moment is precious.

Stuart Sovatsky: Well, it, you know, that, you, I feel like to me what you just said, you know I have to, I say what I envisioned, when you spoke I envisioned you like a rose blossoming and opening up towards me, and that’s, I can’t take that academically. You know, it’s very sexy, it’s very beautiful of you to even think about my good qualities in that way, it’s a gift to me and all my years of study that you, I’m being appreciated for it. I can think, I can go my whole life and not be appreciated for some of these things. So here it’s happening right now. You’re doing more for me than you would have guessed from what you just said and that’s the fact. You know, we have lots of people listening and you’re saying these beautiful things to me, but for it to continue to grow, yeah, I have to say that you’re the one that’s blossoming, you’re the one that’s being so giving. You do, you reminded me of like a giant rose that’s just unfurling and giving off all that fragrance, and I just want to bury my nose in it. And so you can kind of see that, you know, if we’re to play this kind of tennis with each other now, you know, you would have to say something like how that made you feel as a woman…

Francesca Gentille: Yeah, yeah.

Stuart Sovatsky: and who I might be, you know, and then it becomes the real thing as much as we want to take it.

Francesca Gentille: And I love that, I love that we’re going there for people because I think often it is academic, you know, you read the books and you try to figure it out and it just, it’s like this recipe book when you’ve never seen food…

Stuart Sovatsky: Yeah.

Francesca Gentille: And you’re trying to figure out what is a cumquat, what do you do with it? And so I love that we’re giving people, you know, a real time experience of what is it to just take a moment, breathe into the body and get present to someone and get connected to something precious about them and that we want to connect with. What is it to say that, to have them receive it and then turn around and give something back to us, and that’s that cycle, that’s the cycle, exactly, that leads to that sweetness and the body changing and can bring back the spark for those of you listening in a troubled part of your relationship, it’s going to take a little leap to get there, but there’s a positive cycle possible, wouldn’t you say?

Stuart Sovatsky: It’s so, it’s just a matter of, yeah, often the third person helping the couple to get out of their groove that’s gotten negative, and it’s harder to do it on your own I find, but sometimes a third person can just ask two people and change their subject. Like I’m thinking of this one set of sessions that I did, they were married for 24 years, apart for 4 years, and they were calling me from Syria and Canada, they were living like 8,000 miles apart, that we had no sessions in person, and yet within 10 phone conference calls they got back together again and they’ve been together as far as I, as recently, it’s been 3 or 4 months I think, they’re thrilled. And I’ll tell you one of, one element of that, one of those sessions, he was apologizing and they weren’t in the same room, so I said to her, “Close your eyes and imagine tears in your husbands eyes as he is apologizing for hurting you so many times”, and she saw his tears in her imagination and started to cry, and then she told him that, and then he started to, this was a 55 year old guy, a very macho guy, and when she said that she could see his tears 8,000 miles away, imagining just from the sound of his voice that he was crying, he burst out crying, and he felt like his apology had been completely worth it and he wasn’t at risk of being blamed, you know, one more time, no, that she had really felt his apology. This is a mystery of consciousness I think because they weren’t even in the same room…

Francesca Gentille: Mm hmm, mm hmm.

Stuart Sovatsky: And when people believe, when they make that switch from, “I’m not going to believe this. I’m still pissed off”, and then they open and say, “I really am going to believe this guy”, then they’ll start to co-create this positive path again, and he didn’t, and then they’ll get to a pie pitch where something will burst through. In that case his tears burst out, and it was beyond any kind of ego control, and then they were connected.

Francesca Gentille: You know, it’s a mystery of consciousness. We often feel that, you know, if you, if you will change or if you will ask for my forgiveness, you know, then I will step  into that and everything’s going to be okay, and I don’t know about the world out there or your life Stuart, but I have to say from my life that it comes back down to me, that it comes back down to am I willing to open my heart, am I willing to change, and it’s not just a thought, I went home for my family’s funeral, my family disowned me several times in different ways for my life choices, I’ve been disconnected from my family for mostly 25 years and I wanted them to ask my forgiveness. I was really angry for some of the things that I felt that they did to me. But I got to a point where I just said, “Francesca, you may never see your father again, he’s 85, your brothers are in their 50’s, who knows what’s going to happen. Can you please get, let it go”, and I worked and I prayed and I had my friends praying, and at the end of the funeral when we were in the church hall I was able to say, “I’m sorry for the things that I’ve said or I’ve done that hurt you. I’m sorry for the ways I’ve taken myself away from your life, and I want to put the past in the past and start fresh”, and they felt the change in me and my world with my family shifted in that moment and I have my family back.

Stuart Sovatsky: Wow, wow.

Francesca Gentille: And that’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about that in a moment one person even making that shift can bring back love in a relationship or can start a new love on a new level that maybe has never happened in two peoples lives. And that’s part of this path that we’re talking about.

Stuart Sovatsky: I mean, that’s very moving for me to hear you talk about being at your family funeral and deciding that you just had to come clean and apologize and then in that vulnerable moment the rest of your family responded, and that you may have a future that’s quite different from how it could have been before you said what you said, yeah. Yeah, that’s that power whenever we pick it up, and then how to keep it going at a maximum level, I think that’s where learning new things, ‘cause it isn’t totally intuitive. You know, you can, if you have, learn new ways of listening so that your family could’ve said not just thank you, but, “Wow, we’ve been missing out on who you are for all these years. Look at how courageous, that was a tremendously courageous thing you just did”, and so you felt deeply seen because they were seeing you more deeply and putting that into words, and then you would be thanking them, “Wow, you know, this is completely new to me. You’re being so beautiful towards me”, and then a couple of time back and forth at that higher level and it might be stabilized at that higher level for a long, long time.

Francesca Gentille: Yeah, absolutely. So Stuart, I think we’re out of time sadly, it goes so fast, and, but I want to thank you for being in this journey in this half an hour with us and all of our listeners, for having the courage to reveal yourself and to show up and to, as I said before, to embody the tantric path for us. And let me just let you have a moment of you saying what you want to say.

Stuart Sovatsky: Well more happened on this interview than I would’ve expected because I did, I got the drift of the topic which is you. To me it’s you because you’re a woman and it’s not an academic subject, it’s a real thing, and if I don’t relate to you as a woman and say how you’re affecting me, then I’m adding in more, you know, distance from the actual topic, and as a result of that, yeah, I heard your laugh again, you know, it’s that same music, and if anybody listening in is following with that distinction, then I felt like, yeah, we had a great interview.

Francesca Gentille: Thank you Stuart, and thank you for our listening audience for being on this journey with us, for having the courage, the beauty, the spirit to listen to these shows. And if you want to get the transcript, learn more about Stuart, I invite you to learn more about him and his background, it’s just amazing, you can do that at www.personallifemedia.com. That’s www.personallifemedia.com. Thank you for listening to Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra: Brining You the Soul of Sex.