Episode 59 - BEING A SEXPLORER: TABOO BREAKING & SEXUAL FEARLESSNESS with Mark Michaels & Patricia Johnson

Transcript

Francesca Gentille: Welcome to Sex: Tantra & Kama Sutra, bringing you the soul of sex. With me today are Mark A Michaels and Patricia Johnson Johnson. They are the authors of the award-winning book “The  Essence of Tantric Sexuality”. A devoted married couple, they have been teaching tantra together since 1999 and are senior students of doctor John {Mulford}. Swami Ananda Kapali...Kapili... Kapila... (Laughs) I'm sure {will spell it right for} in a moment, Saraswati who has named them his lineage holders for America and Europe and they recently released the fabulous book – which we are going to be talking about today, with some very special {keys} – Tantra for Erotic Empowerment and this one just won the USA Book News award in Sexuality and the finalist in Eastern Religion.

(Musical Interlude)

Mark Michaels:          Well. I think that so many people in relationships have a lot of unconscious boundaries that they never discuss with their partners, that they never really explore, a lot of love-making is based on assumption and sort of {rogue} behavior or socially learned behavior.

Mark Michaels:          ..find thing thats either something that you've desired and refused yourself or that you realize as a taboo and then with intention and consciousness, go out there and violate that taboo or break that personal boundary.

Patricia Johnson: ... and then the most important thing is to really be aware and see what it feels like. [xx] just aware of all aspects of what the experience gives you.

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Francesca Gentille       Welcome! Mark and Patricia.

Patricia Johnson          Hi!

Mark Michaels            Hi! Great to talk to you again.

Francesca Gentille       Its lovely to talk to you again after about a year. I think we'll have an yearly interview with you because you are always growing and expanding. And we are going to be talking about expanding today... something like expanding in Tantra and that's just one of the chapters in their fabulous book the Tantra for Erotic Empowerment on paradox, sexuality, spiritual sexuality, pleasure, desire, bliss, reverence, imagination, transformation.. woo... we can talk about all of these

(Mark Michaels & Patricia Johnson laugh)

Francesca Gentille       .. a little edgy.. we are going to be a little edgy and go directly to Chapter 9 which is Expansion and I love the way that you language this as fearlessness, a sense of taboo breaking. And what is that... there's a word, there's a Sanskrit word for that, correct? What is that?And how do you define that?

Mark Michaels            Yeah. There's a Sanskrit word {aghora} and actually there is a whole school of sex known as the {Aghori Sex}. And {Aghora} means without fear and what the aghoris in India do... now this is not our lineage but we've been exposed to it and it really applies to any aspect of Tantra. They do very, very extreme practices that Westerners would often find quite disturbing; that can include meditating in cremation grounds, some things like that and its all designed to breakdown the barriers that we see between the sacred and the profane and to find the sacred in the things that may be seen as the most frightening and the most profane....

Patricia Johnson          ... and also which achieve a sense of non-duality. And that's the sense of unconditional loving, acceptance and compassion for the all.

Mark Michaels            Well sure. And the interesting is that here's a way to achieve that is through pushing oneself into experiences are definitely well outside the comfort zone, certainly of the society in general but also really the key is to find the places in your life where you have edges and to move into pushing those edges.

Patricia Johnson          So we often give a lecture, this the one that accompanies our book, book signings and book tour and this is one of the topics we address and that's Taboo breaking. Its very interesting how people  react because sometimes I think that when people think of breaking a taboo they think of may shocking society or shocking themselves. That is a factor, shocking themselves, but just shocking society for shock sake is not exactly what we're talking about...

Mark Michaels            ...we kind of did that when we were a teenagers (laughs). Its not about what other people think of  you. The challenge is that in traditional India there are very, very set rules about what's taboo and what's not. Its certainly, historically that was even more true. The Hindu society is really governed by a lot of different taboos including taboos about calves, about what you eat. And those rules and taboos are very, very clearly defined. The same is true in Western society for millennium but today our culture is so diverse and there are so many different things that we are exposed to, but there aren't clearly defined social taboos.

Patricia Johnson          So in other words a taboo that tantric practitioner in India might chose to break may not make any... have any effect to a Westerner. An example of this would be to eat meat. I guess (laughs) depending on if you are a strict vegetarian, but its something that you can eat...

Mark Michaels            ...its broadly in the culture that's not a taboo.

Patricia Johnson          Yeah. Its something that you can of to a restaurant order a steak and nobody is going to look at you cross eyed. So...

Francesca Gentille       Let me just interrupt you for a second because my heart beating a little faster. I was raised in the Mid-West. There's a part of me that thinks does this mean that I have to give up my core value? Does this mean that I have to give up my acceptance within society that I'm going to be doing these things that no one's going to want to speak to me again and I'm going to lose self respect? That's not what we are  talking about, right?

Patricia Johnson          No. And that's a very good question. Actually, the purpose of all of this is for you to actually arrive to a true core value, rather than something that's received knowledge. What we address often is this concept of  morals versus ethics.

Mark Michaels            Yeah and that's a very interesting and a very important distinction to be made there. Morals... the word moral is a Latin translation originally of the Greek word ethos. But the Latin word and the roots of the Latin word really relate to custom and it can be translated as custom of the place.

Patricia Johnson          So in other words it doing what the {Jones} do and being modeling your life as pretty much everyone in society.

Mark Michaels            Now the word ethos – the Greek word ethos – and don't ask me how this evolved, I'm not an etymologist but the origins of the Greek word ethos are in the Sanskrit word Sva which is also the root of the word swami an it really implies.... and swami translates to one zone master. And Sva is one zone.

Francesca Gentille       That's very different. Those are two very different things. One is I'm following the customs almost blindly in that my neighborhood or my {PTA} or.. may I don't even like them but I'm following them anyway.  That would be more of this concept of moral is defined in Latin. And then in ethos or Sva I'm really.. it sounds like I'm really going very deeply into what's true and right for me in the deepest level.

Patricia Johnson          Yeah

Mark Michaels            Exactly, exactly.

Patricia Johnson          ... and the best way to discover this is to sort of look inside and really find places of resistance or places where you don't feel so free. Like you think, “Oh, I could never do that.” Say go out in public and dance alone. Maybe for some people that's an internal boundary, this is something I never can do and its very important for people to nudge... may be not in the center of the floor, but go into a corner and dance alone and see what that feels like and you collect the data of that you may discover, “Oh I really don't like this so this is why I don't do it.” But you'll know for sure. You won't say, “Oh, I'm someone who just doesn't do this.”

Francesca Gentille       And it sounds like there is a distinction that you are saying here very brilliantly is the difference between doing something that's going to be harmful to yourself or others versus doing something that really may be secretly you've always wanted to do, but you are concerned that you'll look bad or, there's just that little concern about it. But in doing it, its really not going to hurt you or anyone else and its a place to experiment.

Mark Michaels            Yeah very much so. I think that in some cases it can be worthwhile to explore things that you are not comfortable with that may be you haven't ever actually felt that you wanted to do, but just in order to see what its like and to discover what that means to you.

Patricia Johnson          This is really, really an important aspect of it, because there is so many things in life that until you try it... there's this level which we think we know ourselves in our brains, are really kind of stupid when it comes to that and then there is an experiential knowledge and something – food experience -you don't know until you've embodied it, for sure. Then you try it, you might like it actually.

Francesca Gentille       Yeah.

Mark Michaels            Yeah.

Francesca Gentille       I want to talk more about this and may be an exercise or practice that someone can do, who's listening in our listening audience. After we come back from a break and word from our fabulous sponsors and a reminder to the [portal] sponsors because they've port shows like this continuing to come to you and we'll right back in a few moments.

(Musical Interlude & advertisement from Personal Life Media)

Francesca Gentille       Welcome back to  Sex: Tanta & Kamasutra, bringing you the soul of sex. We are with Mark Michaels and Patricia Johnson, who are the award-winning authors  of  “The  Essence of Tantric Sexuality” and also  the award-winning authors of their new book “Tantra for Erotic Empowerment” and we were just about to talk about some exercises to embody some of our more fearless nature, but before that I remember that I wanted to ask you what your definition of tantra is? Because from your lineage you have a particular one. What is it?

Mark Michaels            Well I think actually we are going to give you a definition and then a definition of a tantric practitioner as well because its a really nice one that we've got.

Patricia Johnson          (Laughs) yeah. It ties into what we've been talking about.

Mark Michaels            So the definition of the word tantra, if you break the word down into its Sanskrit roots and... Sanskrit words generally have multiple translation so this isn't gospel and there's many different ways to define it. But what our teacher gave us is that you take the first part the tan part and the root that's the root of the Sanskrit work {tanoi} which and be translated to mean expand. The second piece, the tra part which also appears in mantra and yantra is the root of the Sanskrit word {trayati}which can be translated as tool. So you put them together and you have tool for expansion. Now the tool that you have is your physical body, your being in the world, your very existence and what you are expanding is your consciousness, so that every experience that you have everything that you do in life is an opportunity to experience this expansion of consciousness if you approach it with the right attitude which leads us into the other neat little thing that we have.

Patricia Johnson          ...and this one came from a guru of our teacher Swami Ananda Kapila Sarawati, Swami Agyananda Sarawati and he said that “tantra practitioner is both experimenter and experiment” and we like to take it even further and add “and laboratory” so if you apply some of these ideas of taboo breaking as an experiment that you run on your consciousness along with your own embodiment, cyclic data just to see what's its like to be in the world and...

Mark Michaels            ... and observe.

Francesca Gentille       Okay, so... let's say I gather my fearlessness and I going to do this. Why do I want to do this? I mean why don't I just want to stay say safe and customary and in my.. the way of existence that I've already been doing or what I've already been told how to do it? Why do I want to take these risks and go outside the box?

Patricia Johnson          To experience freedom and choice.

Mark Michaels            Yeah. If you think about it and... there's a little bit of a digression in a sense, but it relates and there's... I'm not attaching any kind of judgment about any body's lifestyle choice but... I think that generally speaking, people who are monogamous relationships are in them because that's what society says they should do. They haven't really freely chosen that...

Patricia Johnson          ... or {taught to} how to define what monogamy might be for them. Its sort of like given, yet its not really clearly defined in our society.

Mark Michaels            So its the default mode and people just fall into it without really examining what it means to them. And when I was first exposed to {polyamorous} movement, the thing that I found most appealing was that they were really thinking actively about what it means to be in relationships with people and saying if you choose to be monogamous that's great, but its not the only choice that exists and its really only within that... within that ability of knowing that you have the choice that you can be freely be monogamous, because if you are just doing it because that's what everybody does...

Patricia Johnson          ...you'll never know if that's truly your inner truth or not. We are not advocating that people like go out and hit some party, crazy party right now. But we are talking about really examining inwardly and really freeing up possibility of choices.

Francesca Gentille       You know they say that unexamined life is not worth living and I love it that you are asking people to examine there own monogamy. I think that after the  1960s what we believed monogamy was going to be suddenly totally broke down and our relationships broke down and I think it is possible to choose to focus with one person in a beautiful way when that consciousness is applied. What are we creating here as in this focused way? And not just doing it by rule. I love that. That's delicious and it allows people to create marriage or partnership really vibrantly and personally

Mark Michaels            Yeah.

Patricia Johnson          Yeah. We like to refer to that relationship as a co-creation as well. So that applies the same principle.

Francesca Gentille       Umm. That's delicious. I realize that I got sidetracked here, because I was wanting for a practice to help our listening audiences, perhaps even to help me. Do this sense expansion on a daily basis. Try it on, look at it. Can you give us a tip, a TA practice.

Mark Michaels            Well its not.. its hard to do a one size fits all. As we talked about this, we don't have these clear cut social rules anymore. So its going to be very individual, but the audience members, each should begin with this process of little bit of self examination and to think about something that they... as you indicated, something that they wanted to do but they've forbidden themselves to do.

Patricia Johnson          It doesn't have to be big either. It can be really simple. A student once just to ran... her experiment with to... she had a long driveway and to go from her house to the in of her long driveway without underwear on (laughs) which is very simple, very you know...

Mark Michaels            No risk involved to anyone. Nobody had to know about it.

Patricia Johnson          (Laughs) but she sounded incredible for really an incredible experience, so it can be very subtle and very personal.

Francesca Gentille       So that's an example.

Mark Michaels            So, the first step is to examine the...the other alternative would be think of something that you don't do because its socially unacceptable. This can be a small thing, I'm trying to think of a example.

Francesca Gentille       Sitting on the street.

Patricia Johnson          (Laughs) Oh that's s something.

Mark Michaels            Something like that. Maybe it isn't illegal depending on where you are...

Patricia Johnson          (Laughs) Yeah.

Mark Michaels            It can be something as small as that, I remember as a teenager and this is more in the shocking other people department, but I had a mustache and I shaved half of it off, on April Fool's day and I walked around just trying to guage how people would respond to that. Now my mind set there wasn't great because it was really about being shocking, but the attitude that I had which is to see how people react is very much the kind of attitude that you want to have in this experiment. So step one is to examine yourself and choose and find this thing that's  either something that you've desired and refused yourself that you realize is a taboo. And then with intention and consciousness, go out there and violate that or break that personal boundary.

Patricia Johnson          ... and then the most important thing is to really be aware and see what it feels like. Collect your data... just aware of all aspects of what the experience gives you.

Mark Michaels            Journaling about this is a great way to hammer home what's  happened and keep that observer mind, the witness consciousness going.

Francesca Gentille       You remind me about something that my beloved told me about as a center owner in New York, he's out here now, but he said that he is a certified health counsel, yoga therapist, massage therapist, all about health. He realized that this was restricting people so he created a “Bad Day” things that they'd never do, like he hadn't had a meat in 14 years and he'd never smoked a cigar or things that... a woman was always neat, she just had to put everything away. Her job that day was to just throw candy wrappers on the street or... and just for a day try on what it was like to {intentionally} bad. Be that things that you wouldn't normally be and they did it together. So they all encouraged one another supported pone another and then we able to come back in circle and say what did we learn from that?

Mark Michaels            Oh wow!

Francesca Gentille       Another idea for people is to institute a Bad Day among you and your friends and even your beloved.

Mark Michaels            Yeah.

Francesca Gentille       Yeah. I recall a different day than that. I know a joke I get the joke and stuff but just other day or different day or something...

Patricia Johnson          .. or the experimenters day..

Francesca Gentille       Yeah! That's good too.

Mark Michaels            Yeah!

Patricia Johnson          That's good too.

Francesca Gentille       Yeah, I like that because then we can do bad duality, we want to let that go. I want to talk more about this and talk about how this relates to the Sex:Tantra and Kama Sutra show, the sexuality part of it and how we can expand into that after a break and a word from our fabulous sponsors. And we'll be right back.

(Musical Interlude & advertisement from PersonalLifeMedia.com)

Francesca Gentille       Welcome back to Sex: Tantra & Kama Sutra, bringing you the soul of sex with Mark Michaels and Patricia Johnson and we are talking about taboo breaking and fearlessness and we've been talking about how this... in doing even little things can enrich and expand our whole life and have us discover new things about ourselves. But I want to talk about the even more juicy stuff, the sex. So how do practitioners like me enrich and expand our sexuality and our relating to one another?

Mark Michaels            Well I think that so many people in relationships have a lot of unconscious boundaries that they never discuss with their partners, that they never really explore, a lot of love-making is based on assumption and sort of {rogue} behavior or socially learned behavior. That can end up being very {stupefying}  and we have ideas about ourselves as sexual beings that are limited by all sorts of external expectations that have been placed on us since childhood. If you bring this attitude of intentional taboo breaking, intentional conscious exploration of your own boundaries into the sexual realm, you similarly become much freer as a sexual being and in your partnership in talking about sexuality openly and honestly and perhaps choosing as a couple to say okay, what have our boundaries, what have we not done that we both mutually agree, we'd like to explore together. I think that once you get into this couple realm, it can be a little bit more difficult because we don't want this to be about somebody pressing their agenda for certain kind of sexual activity on to their partner.

Francesca Gentille       So its not you do this for me and may be I'll do this this thing you want for you. Its not at all the attitude we are talking about. Its still the attitude of co-creation, so ...

Mark Michaels            So what can we do together to discover something new and different. For some people it may be as simple as just leaving the lights on. I think most people in the tantra world that's no big deal, but for a lot of people that could be quite huge or doing something a little more out there. There is just any number of possibilities for what you could explore. For some people it might be just moving into a different room in your house, or doing it in your car in some private place. There are just any number of possibilities.

Patricia Johnson          Yeah, I'm going to still comes to the realm of sexuality intimate number of positions, you have your hands {free} or even variations on your tried and true love making patterns that you do like. We're not suggesting that people throw out things that work by {road} but to embellish them and enhance them by using this attitude.

Mark Michaels            So its really a kind of.... that's the thing that we talk about a lot is having an attitude of adventure in your sexual life so that when you are in relationship and you both are exploring together, there are just endless possibilities and its not about whether its one encounter... whether you have great sex this time. Its really about this journey that you are on.

Patricia Johnson          Just  to see.. yeah.. what can be discovered. I like to think of Lewis and Clark, you  are just seeing him going out to Wow! What would be out there is we try this road, together?

Francesca Gentille       I just had an intriguing notion. Mark Michaels would you be willing to role play with me, I'm going to be the hesitant partner and you're... I'd love for you to be the more encouraging partner and help support me to this idea of experimenting. Would you be willing to do that?

Mark Michaels            Sure!

Francesca Gentille       Okay, so... Honey you said you wanted to talk to me about something.

Mark Michaels            Yeah really interested in just exploring our sexuality with little more intention and awareness and I heard about this exercise where you pick something that may you are a little interested in doing but aren't quite comfortable with and you just try it out to see how it feels. So how does that sound to you?

Francesca Gentille       So is this going to be something that you want to do? And then I've got to do it?

Mark Michaels            No, there's no pressure involved. I think we might just talk it through and see what mutually is interesting to us that we haven't tried before. So I'm certainly open to hearing any ideas that you have. And especially if you are little anxious about this, I'd rather come from you initially and then I can tell you whether I'm comfortable with it or not.

Francesca Gentille       Oh good, yeah. Because you know I was very Catholic and this just sound a little scary and... but you know may be if I could get a baby sitter, if we could make love by the fire place.

Mark Michaels            Okay, we haven't done that so... that sounds wonderful. And the thing is to really go into it and just be open and curious and treat it almost like play so that we are just going to discover how it feels to do that.

Francesca Gentille       Just how different... might be different, different lights, different sounds whatever and just explore and everything is fine. I won't fail you. I won't fail you, honey if I don't do it right...?

Mark Michaels            No, there's no right or wrong and there's really no pressure. It is just about seeing how it feels. There's no... I have no expectations from you on it either.

Francesca Gentille       Okay, so if I end up not liking it, I haven't failed you.

Mark Michaels            No, not at all. Its an experiment and not every experiment succeeds. I have no attachment to any outcome.

Francesca Gentille       That was beautiful. That was...

Patricia Johnson          (Laughs)

Francesca Gentille       Patricia Johnson, you lucky girl. (laughs)

Patricia Johnson          Yeah. (Laughs)

Mark Michaels            (Laughs)

Francesca Gentille       I love that you are... that you just kept repeating that there were no expectations that I couldn't fail, that if I were your beloved I'd just feel like there's such freedom to show up may be in a new way and may be even cry or reveal something that was a little scary that I was holding back. Something... may be a fear about my past or my body that may be I wanted to reveal but never felt the freedom to reveal under that really compassionate “we are just being curious” “we are just experimenting”, there's such an invitation to have something new emotionally show up as sexually.

Mark Michaels            Yeah, and I think that's really the key that. We've had a fair amount of experience with couples where one of the other partner is really pushing the agenda and wanting to explore in a way that makes the other partner feel very uncomfortable and that's just.. that's a prescription for disaster because if its not really a mutual thing and if the partners don't both feel equally safe, it just can become a way that one person batters another emotionally. Its really got to be this joint thing and that's why we talk about this adventure and the mutuality and the co-creation of the adventure.

Francesca Gentille       This is so important. I just want to give us a couple more minutes because this is coming up a lot in many of the couples that I coach is this idea that one person has a quicker pace into adventure, into exploration, into something may be the wilder shores of love and one person has an slower pace and or even a trauma around going there and each partner ends up feeling very depleted and unfulfilled. The one that has the quicker faster, more expansive, adventurous pace can feel so shut down and sometimes shamed like they are endlessly patient. While their partner never comes to this place of fearlessness. The partner that's tender may be just a little slower, sometime wounded can feel so unsafe, what do you prescribe for that?

Patricia Johnson          I think going at a pace as the slower person is important. I think that the slower person needs to really examine and find as much movement that they are comfortable with because I think what you are describing is something like a polarization where one feels denied and the other feels stoic and holding their ground and both partners are really suffering in that instance. To take a little {wincy} step is far more important than trying to achieve this huge giant leap.

Mark Michaels            ... yeah and finding the areas where there is some mutuality...

Patricia Johnson          There is always some point where there is a flexibility, where you can try something new and its not yet the {freeform} that may be she's desiring but... okay in front of the fireplace we have it, so let's ... gradually learn what its like to expand and explore together in relatively small and safe increments. What you are going to do is build trust amongst each other. Especially in the realm of sexuality its a must if you are going to be a “sexplorer” (laughs) you know. Really look at your relationship this way.

Mark Michaels            I think the another piece of it is the person who is going more slowly, its very important on that side that there not be judgment attached to what the other person wants and not be any kind of condemnation about the fantasies and the desires that the other person is expressing. That can be very damaging as well.

Francesca Gentille       Umm. That sounds very, very key so that there are set bridge of compassion for both side. The one that is the faster sexplorer can have the tenderness for the one that is wanting to go slowly and the one  who is wanting to go slowly can have empathy and tenderness for the person who wants to go faster and yet is going at slower pace for them.

Patricia Johnson          I think that the last step is often missing especially if you are someone in relationship with someone who is kinky, there have a kink, because again society says there certain... as a couple you are supposed to behave this way, this is what your sex life is supposed to look like, and if you are presented with a partner that you dearly love but their sex life doesn't... their expression doesn't fit that mold, then society says you have the right to condemn them. To encourage that partner to learn more about the kink, maybe, or whatever and like you said, approach it with some tenderness and compassion. That a huge, huge setup.

Francesca Gentille       Well Mark and Patricia I just want to thank you so much for joining us. I want to do the rest of the chapters. And there is such beautiful information to help couple harmonize. Its very common that there is that kind of discrepancy, difference between pacing of desires and exploration that you've brought such a sense of supporting exploration and yet bringing a peacefulness and compassion at the same time. I'm just totally honored to have you on the show.

Patricia Johnson          Thank you.

Mark Michaels            Well Thanks very much for having us. Can we mention our website before we go?

Francesca Gentille       Please, I was just going to ask you. (laughs)

Mark Michaels            Okay (laughs). Its www.tantra- P as in Patricia and M as in Mark -.com

Patricia Johnson          So that's www.tantrapm.com

Francesca Gentille       Thank you so much for joining up and thank you our listening audiences for joining us as well. If you want to find out  more about Mark Michaels and Patricia Johnson, their [xx], get to their websites, get to their book, you can also do that through www.personallifemedia.com You can email me there and find out about my coaching and services as well, at www.personallifemedia.com . Sex:Tantra and Kama Sutra, bringing you the soul of sex.