Episode 1 - Rowan Gabrielle, an Eco-entrepreneur who defines what it means to be “Living Green”

Rowan Gabrielle, an Eco-entrepreneur defines what it means to be “Living Green”

Announcer:  This program is brought to you by personallifemedia.com.

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Meredith Medland:  Welcome to Living Green.  I’m your host Meredith Medland.  I’m so excited that you’ve downloaded our show.

Today I am still privileged and grateful to introduce you to both a very good friend of mine and a phenomenal woman on the planet, who I feel embodies the attitudes and behaviors and values of what it means to be ‘Living Green’.

Our guest today is Rowan Gabrielle of UrthTV, wholelife.com and organicleather.com.  Rowan, it’s such a great thing to have you on the show.  Thank you so much for being with me.  How are you doing?

Rowan Gabrielle:  My pleasure.  I’m doing great.

Meredith:  All right.  You are known for a couple of things – ecoentrepreneur, your work with Sacred Commerce and you use business as a spiritual path.  You are also very, very, very committed to ecofashion.  And you’ve done some amazing work.  In fact, you’ve just got back from New York, right?

Rowan:  Actually London and Paris.

Meredith:  London and Paris, that’s right.

Rowan:  Yes, I just was at both Paris Fashion Week and London Fashion Week, both of which have added sustainable fashion to their clothes.  These are the big buyers’ shows that happen in convention centers and those hundreds of booths.

In Paris it was the third year.  There were 70 booths this year, which was double last years.  In London there were 20 booths, but it was only the second year.  Again it was double last year.

So you can see that the growth is happening fast.  The industry is tiny compared to the regular fashion industry but within that industry the growth is very very rapid.

Meredith:  Wow.  So let’s start at the beginning and give our listeners a sense of what ecofashion is so that we have some definition.  If you could share that as it relates to how you are living green from a clothing perspective and how they might do that as well.

Rowan:  Sure.  Ecofashion basically means that the fabrics used are either organic or a very sustainable fabric like something made from hemp or bamboo or now they’re starting to do stuff with pine.  Flax is also a relatively sustainable fabric.

It can be anything from how the actual substance is grown, how the plant or substance is made to the way that it’s broken down or processed or dyed.  It can also be reclaimed fabric.  There are a lot of great designers that are taking things that have already been in use once and are totally repurposing them.

There is an incredible company that has taken all men’s suits and business shirts and has made them into these extraordinary bags and dresses that are actually really couture stunning.  But they are something that there are a lot of and people have no idea what to do with an old suit.  But they’ve just simply repurposed it.

So there is a lot of different ways of doing ecoclothing.  What’s so great about doing the fairs is that you get to see all peoples’ creative outlets.

Meredith:  So when you are these shows, are you exhibiting as part of Organic Leather?

Rowan:   I wasn’t this year because my company has only just launched and it’s not quite ready for that much exposure.  I was there mainly to report.  I have an ecoblog on UrthTV, an ecofashion blog that I recently started. So I was just there to report on the industry.

I also put on a fashion show here in the U.S. every year.  So I’m always looking at what company is coming out that I would like to add to that showcase.

Meredith:  Now what are some of the highlights?  You produced one of the first ecofashion shows in Hollywood earlier this year, actually last year in 2006.  What are some of the highlights that you can share with our listeners about that show?

Rowan:  I think the exciting thing for me about that show was that it was the second one I had done – the first one was in 2001.  Just to see the industry having grown so much and to see companies like and Stewart and Brown, which is a company that makes so much basic clothing from T-shirts all the way to beautiful clothes that you would wear to go out in the evening.  It has such a wide range of really stunning really easy to use clothing coming out of one company.

To see them in so many stores, not just ecostores, but they’ve really gone into stores across the country and now into Europe.  So that was really exciting.

Then to see so many new young designers that are coming in and starting their entire careers on ecofashion.  The one that jumps out for me is Del Forte Denim.
She actually did work in the denim industry for a little while in New York but this was her first line of her own clothing and she went straight for cotton grown and sewn in the U.S.A.

Meredith:  One of the things that I’d like to share with our listeners is that I was actually at that show with you and got the pleasure of wearing some of the Del Forte Jeans.  I don’t have a ton of experience wearing organic clothing and I came home with a whole bunch after that particular show.  The actual feeling on my body and on my legs was very different.  The fabric moved a little bit better.

But what I noticed was most interesting is that when I wore the jeans, or there is a particular organic cotton scarf that I got; when I wear the clothing I actually find that I am more conscious of how I’m taking care of the environment, or my water bottle usage.  All the little things get highlighted when I’m actually wearing the clothing.

Rowan:  That’s fantastic.  Well, two things – one is it’s wonderful that you feel that way about the fabric.  I would say that it’s only in the last few years that the fabric is beginning to get to the point where it’s feeling better.

When this industry started, it was known for it’s scratchy hemp and things that didn’t feel as great, but you bought just because you knew you were doing a good thing.  I think you’re absolutely right, that curve has turned to where the fabrics that are coming from ecodesigners are actually more delicious.  I mean, certainly, Stewart & Brown’s sustainable cashmere is absolutely incredible as is their organic cotton and like you said, the same with Del Forte, and that speaks for what great designers they are.

Meredith:  I was also surprised, because the price range was fairly reasonable compared to other jeans.  I live in Santa Barbara and there is a Blue Bee right on State Street in Santa Barbara and many of the jeans were in the same price range as jeans that were being exhibited at the ecofashion show.   As well I know that Blue Bee does or has carried Stewart & Brown before in their line.

Rowan:  That’s good to hear.  Yeah, it’s getting much more competitive.  It’s still on the higher end of average but it’s definitely at a point where it’s very manageable for the average customer.

Meredith:  So let’s talk about that manageability for the average customer.  You’re very unique in the path that you’ve gone through.  We’re going to talk about that in a little bit, in really being part of the ecology movement as just a way of life that you’ve had since you were young.

For the average consumer, what do you think motivates them to take an interest in ecofashion and spend the money?

Rowan:  I think that when people really get to realize what the state of the world is, and they start to realize that there is nobody out there that is going to change it for them.  It’s up to each of us as individuals to take responsibility for the planet.  It’s really not until that process happens that people realize that they really can make a difference and they really are the ones that are going to change the world.

Until that happens inside of someone, you’re not going to make them spend the extra money because they don’t realize their own value yet.  I think once you realize your own value to the planet and to the bigger picture, then it makes it much easier to make those decisions.  Like you said, you feel better in the clothing and you don’t need as much of it because you’re not using clothing to satiate something that is a lack in you, because you are feeling more valuable about yourself.

So you can have less clothing that you really love, that might have cost you a bit more, but that you feel great about.

Meredith:  That’s exactly how it started to be for me.  I have to say that that’s coming true.  I do have a little bit of a difficulty going out and getting ecofashionable items because I feel like they’re not as accessible as other mainstream clothing, although I don’t really buy that much new clothing these days anyway.

Do you think the accessibility is a problem right now?

Rowan:  Yeah, I do.  There is a lot on the Web, which is great.  But clothing is something that we tend to want to feel and touch and try on.  I would say the best thing is that most or all of these great companies do have resources of where all of their clothing is carried in every city.

But it is still and issue and we need more and more of our local boutiques to buy from these companies.

Meredith:  What are you doing about that personally?

Rowan:  Personally, I’ve put on this fashion show once a year which we kind of call ecofashion week.  That is somewhere where people can come and see what’s new.  We do a sale afterwards so people can actually come and try on the clothing, see it and feel it and realize where that industry has gotten to. 

I’m also working on a plan with some of the companies to do retail stores in major cities that are only organic.  There are also a couple of other people – there is a great store that has opened in New York recently.  Wildlife Works is about to open one on Union Street in San Francisco.  So they are popping up slowly but surely.

Meredith:  Now for our listeners that would like to look at the coverage of the ecofashion show that was in Hollywood, we can find that on UrthTV, correct?

Rowan:  Yeah, you can find the video from the fashion show on UrthTV.  You can also go to eco-petal.com and all of the links are live.  There is a copy of the invite there and all of the logos of the companies that are on there and they link straight to their websites.  So that’s a really good way of going through them all.

Meredith:  Excellent.  Our listeners can also find those on our episode tapes here at personallifemedia.com.  We’ll have URL to direct you to those.

I’d like to transition and speak to you a little bit more about UrthTV.  We’re going to take just a moment to honor the sponsors for making this show possible.

Once again I want to make that you know that you’re listening to Rowan Gabrielle who is the founder of organicleather.com.  My name is Meredith Medland and I’m your host of living green.  We’ll be back right after this.

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Announcer:  Living Green is proudly sponsored by MEA Digital, a new media ad agency for marketing to the green consumer.  MEADigital.com.

 

Meredith:  Welcome back.  My name is Meredith Medland and I’m your host of Living Green.  We’re here with Rowan Gabrielle.  In our segment earlier we were talking about organic leather, ecofashion, clothes and what a difference it makes.  And really why resting and honoring the environment really helps change values, attitudes and behavior.

So we are here with Rowan Gabrielle.  Rowan, welcome back.

Rowan:  Thank you.  One thing I would love to add to where we finished up –

Meredith:  Sure.

Rowan:  There is also on a very personal level when you’re wearing especially the really good organic clothing, you are cutting down the amount of toxins that are introduced to your body significantly.  People that have become incredibly environmentally sensitive are more and more often becoming allergic to the fabric that they are around in their regular life.

You obviously don’t get the toxic residue when you’re working with fabrics that have been made more consciously.

Meredith:  I’m glad that you added that.  That parlays really well into the definition of ‘living green’.  We talked a little bit prior to our interview about the definition of living green for you and I’d love for you to share your history as well as growing up and really what embodying living green means to you.

Rowan:  Sure.  For me, living green really is about living consciously and being responsible for your footprint on this planet.  So it manifests differently for everybody but it’s about feeling really really good about what you’re doing and being conscious of your own impact.

For me, I grew up in England.  I was lucky in the sense that I had very alternative parents.  I grew up for the most part in the country on a commune that was not based around any religious or political concept, but more about just living a really good life.  So we had all organic gardens.  We grew most of our own vegetables.  We had all our own organic animals.  We made our own butter, bread, cheese, everything. 

So I grew up very conscious of that most immediate relationship to the earth, which is our food.

Meredith:  Rowan, one of my favorite moments with you is learning how to make stinging needle soup from stinging needles from the farmer’s market with goat cheese.  You put them in a blender.  I remember thinking wow; I don’t even know what those are.  They were at the farmer’s market.  I wouldn’t have any idea what to do with them. I’d love for you to share with our listeners maybe three really unique things that are part of your food program that support the environment.

Rowan:  Well, definitely, the farmer’s market is a big part of my relationship to food.  I go to the farmer’s market pretty much every week.  Obviously anytime you’re buying local and you’re buying from your local farmers and you’re buying organic, you do a great thing.

Those farmers have certain extraordinary relationships to the land and you’re not only getting great nutrition, but you’re getting the care and attention because those are people that really love their work. 

So, yeah, that was stinging nettle soup.  Stinging nettle is traditionally thought of as a weed and most people try to get rid of them.  They happen to be incredibly high in iron and somewhat similar to spinach except much, much, much higher levels of the good nutrients, especially iron.  So it stings your fingers to pick them but once you pick them they are very good for you.

Meredith:  Are those common?  Could you get those in farmer’s markets across the country?

Rowan:  Farmer’s markets would probably be the only place that you could get them.  But in a lot of places you’ll be able to pick them for yourself.  Pick them with gloves.

Meredith:  So if they’re at the farmer’s market, why don’t you give our listeners a little sample of what you showed me how to do?  Let them know how to do that.  So they’ve bought the stinging nettles -

Rowan:  Sure.  So if you manage to be lucky enough to find stinging nettles, you would basically just sauté some onions and then put in a couple of pints of water.  Fill that half with potatoes.  After the potatoes are cooked, so once the potatoes are soft, you fill the other half of the water with stinging nettles, which is a lot of stinging nettles.  It’s the same like spinach.  It reduces very quickly.  Then add pepper and salt.  Afterwards you drizzle it with a little yogurt or goat’s cheese.

Meredith:  Excellent.  I promise all our listeners that it’s pretty amazing soup.   Very easy, and I highly, highly recommend it.  So, thank you.

Rowan:  Yeah.  It’s my favorite.

Meredith:  Thank you for that.  Let’s talk a little bit about what’s not living green in your life.  Where are some of the areas where you could still do a little bit more to increase the quality of your ecological footprint?

Rowan:  The biggest is definitely travel.  I’m somewhat of a jet setter and have been for many many years, having moved here from England and most of my family being back there.  Also, just for research projects and fun, I’m often on airplanes or in cars.

The way that I’ve started to offset that is by planting trees.  But that is obviously an answer to only part of the problem.  It’s great to be putting oxygen back into the air but we are going to have to find some better solution to our travel.

Meredith:  Yeah.  What is it like inside your mind – this sort of self-talk that you do around ecology?  How do you speak to yourself when these things get illuminated in your awareness?

Rowan:  I would say I’ve been on a real journey with that and I think this happens for most people.  In my teens I was heavily involved in the environmental movement and was a filmmaker.  There was a lot of guilt associated with the environment.  If I had to get anything with packaging or stuff like that I would feel really bad about it.

Over the years I very consciously trained myself out of that because I believe that that guilt is as bad for the planet as any piece of plastic that you could throw away.  You’re not helping anybody by feeling guilty about anything.  Really underneath that guilt is anger about the state of the world.

So I’ve taken the time and attention to really dispel that anger and find my own passion within it to create things.  I think that’s really the same for anyone.  Then your actions are coming out of a desire to do something great and it’s exciting to do it.  It’s exciting to wear organic clothing and share that with people.  It’s exciting to eat organic and it’s no longer out of duty or obligation, it’s out of passion and inspiration.

I don’t feel bad about very many things very often and when I do I definitely take the time to talk myself through it and find out what’s there.

Meredith:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  When you’re thinking about living green, we’ve talked about travel, we’ve talked about food, and we’ve talked about clothing.  What are some of the other things that you do that support the planet?

Rowan:  I would say my work is the main thing I do.  I guess that’s the other way I’ve kind of channeled all of my passions.  And so all of the projects that I do are to do with really waking people up to whom they are.  I think that the more people get in touch with themselves, the less they want to do anything bad to themselves.  Then that goes out and they don’t want to do bad things to their friends or to the planet.

Meredith:  What are some of the ways that you have learned to take care of yourself in the last two years that has fundamentally changed your ecological footprint?

Rowan:  The main one is probably actually giving myself more solitude and more time to just, what I call push in the clutch and pause my reality.  Most of the time that my footprint gets too big is when I am racing on crazy deadlines that I put there.

[Laughter]

Rowan:  You know, so basically when I let my reality get out of control and I forget that it’s mine.

Meredith:  Aaaah.  So the space in between.

Rowan:  Yes, I start reacting to it versus consciously directing it.

Meredith.  Yeah.  I think that we could even take a 20 second space break for everybody and give them that experience right now, although I promise that we won’t.

Rowan:  [Laughs]

Meredith:  Maybe afterwards people can do that.

Rowan:  Yeah, it’s probably one of the most important things that anyone can do for themselves right now because most of what we are doing in the West is not that conscious because we are always on the clock.  So we’re rushing from here to there and we do the thing that is the fastest.  We stop on the corner to eat because it is the fastest.

When we really give ourselves that time to pause, then we really think about the impact we want to have and it changes our decisions drastically.

Meredith:  Thank you for presenting that.  We’re going to take a short break to support our sponsors.  Then we’re going to come back and then we’re going to learn more about Rowan.  We’re also going to ask her if she could create three outcomes within the next three months, what would they be?

Thank you so much for tuning in.  We’ll be back right after this.  You’re listening to Living Green.

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Meredith:  We’re back.  I’m Meredith Medland your host of Living Green.  I’m talking to Rowan Gabrielle of UrthTV, wholelife.com and organicleather.com.

Before the break we’ve been talking about the attitudes, values and beliefs of what it means to ‘live green’.  And I promised you that I would pose a question to Rowan.

Rowan, the big question – if you could create three specific measurable outcomes, within the next three months, what would they be?

Rowan:  I think the first one is very much to do with UrthTV and my work with that.  I am one of the founders of it but I am also the V.P. of Media.  This month we are introducing our own video player.  What that means is that producers from all around the world will be able to upload their content onto there, obviously content to do with consciousness and green living.

So what I’m hoping that will do is give us a whole new influx of content that’s more international and that will also grow our viewership.  So that’s one of my things that are a real goal for the next three months.

The second one is very personal.  I’m looking to buy a ranch where I’ll work with horses and probably all kinds of organic farming and bees.   I’m hoping that that will be closed in the next three months.

Meredith:  If you were visualizing that ranch, what would it look like?

Rowan:  Well, I’ve already found it so it’s just a question of it all going through in time and our offer being accepted etcetera.

Meredith:  Oh, that’s really exciting!  So that’s actually happening.  I remember when you were just looking and dreaming.

Rowan:  It’s in action.  It’s a 500-acre piece of property in Northern California that is mostly forested and has a lake.  It also has it’s own water source.  It’s really beautiful.

Meredith:  Oh, wow!  That sounds fantastic.  All right.  Outcome number three?

Rowan:  The third one would be to find the partners that I need to move forward with Organic Leather.  There is a serious lack of the actual product at the moment, which means that we’ve had a backlog in being able to make that much.  So we’re looking to build one of the first organic factories in this country and I’m looking for the right people to do that with us.

Meredith:  Now when I hear people talk about organic leather, or I am talking about it, there is a little bit of a question.  What in the world is organic leather and what kind of – there is definitely a little bit of “come on!”

Rowan:  [Laughs] Definitely.  I think that’s probably one of the reasons that I chose that because there is so much you could talk about.  It’s such a talking point.

Organic leather basically means two things.  One is that the animal was organically raised and had a good life.  Really, for me, I’m far more concerned with the quality of life than whether or not anything or anyone dies, because we all die.

Meredith:  Now when you say they had a good life, what exactly does that mean?

Rowan:  So, for the most part, organically, humanely raised animals are not kept in pens.  They are range fed and range grown.  Again, for the most part, they are grown by farmers that really have a good relationship and love their land and love their animals, that wouldn’t dream of factory farming them inside all day.

So that’s the first part.

Meredith:  OK.

Rowan:  The second part is that the hides are organically tanned.  We only work with leather that is a byproduct of the meat industry.  So this is actually an incredibly sustainable product as long as people are eating meat there are going to be hides available.  Those are the only ones that we work with.

For the most part now, hides are tanned using extremely polluting heavy metals, namely chrome.  For example, in the U.S. all of the tanneries that used to be here at the end of the 18th century were shipped abroad during the 19th century.  Those sites that used to be tanneries are pretty much all on the E.P.A. top 10 list of toxic sites in this country.  And they haven’t been here for 50 to 100 years.

So we are talking about an extremely toxic practice.  It doesn’t have to be tanned that way.  It can be tanned using bark or plant tannins or smoke tannins.  So that’s what we’re working with.

Meredith:  How exciting!  Well it makes a lot more sense when you explain it, I must say.

Rowan:  Yeah.

Meredith:  Now the price point of organic leather is fairly high isn’t it?

Rowan:  It’s very high.  At the moment because the tanneries that I work with are what I would call boutique tanneries, small tanneries where everything is hand done, the price of the actual raw material is up to 10 times more than it would be from a factory in China, even more sometimes.  This in turn makes the products we make much more expensive which is why we want to make our own factory.

Meredith:  There you go.  Well one of things that I love most about your organic leather products, and like I said, I’ve tried some belts and bracelets, is they smell really good and the designs are absolutely stunning and it feels like I’m wearing a piece of artwork when I have it on.

Rowan:  Thank you.  Yeah, that’s one of the things that we always want to do.  We’ll have our base ranges, which will be made en masse.  But we always want to have custom pieces made by artists and we try to get other artists all the time to be a part of our group.

Meredith:  Well, they are really, really special, so thank you for that.  You can find out more about organic leather at organicleather.com. 

We are going to come back after this and we’re going to talk to Rowan about leaving a legacy and the legacy that she can leave for our planet.  We’re going to take a short break now to thank our sponsors.  My name is Meredith Medland, your host of living green.  I’m here with Rowan Gabrielle.  We’ll be back right after this.

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Meredith:   We’re back for the last segment of our show.  I’m your host Meredith Medland.  We’re talking to Rowan Gabrielle of Organic Leather, UrthTV and wholelife.com.

Before the break, we were talking about the importance of ecofashion as well as organic leather.  I mentioned that I’d be asking Rowan about leaving a legacy on the planet.

So Rowan, as you think about the future, and if you could look back maybe talking to grandchildren or young people, in your elder years, and you were leaving a legacy, what would that legacy be?  What would be the lessons or messages that would be heard and left on the planet?

Rowan:  Great question! A very, very big question, and a very personal question.

Meredith:  Yeah.  I believe this is as personal as you can go.

Rowan:  Yeah –

Meredith:  I really want to know!

Rowan:   I think it would all be around relationships.  Obviously, specifically one of the reasons that I founded organic leather was to have a vehicle through which to talk about our relationship to animals and to the planet.

Similarly with UrthTV, it’s about peoples’ relationships to themselves.  It’s about them really finding out that they matter.  You are UrthTV, you are the message, and you are the change.  Everything revolves around you.

To see that I had had impact on waking people up to their own value, their own power, and their own ability to commune with the planet around them – that would mean everything to me.

Meredith:  Hmm.  And when you project out into the future, can you give some potential specific scenarios of what that would look like?

Rowan:  Sure.  I guess that would look like we’d had significant impact on changing the tanning factories, not just our own, but all around the world and changing the policy around that and around what’s acceptable to use in that process.  It would also look like Urth being a huge network of millions of people around the world that are educating each other about what’s happening and about what’s real for them and for their house and their environment.

Meredith:  I have no doubt that those things will manifest for you.  I definitely want to share with our listeners that when you meet Rowan in person, she is this dewy, loving, maternal but totally sexy in her 30’s, solid, strong, tall woman.  You are about, what 5’10”?

Rowan:  5’9”.

Meredith:  5’9”, yeah – a tall woman who is relaxed in her body and has a really soft glow.  I’ve got to tell you that every time I interact with you, I’m completely inspired by the amount of projects that you’ve been able to actually manifest into the world.  They are tangible products, whether that’s your photography from Burning Man, and using color on all the different bodies, or the organic leather or Whole Life.

We actually haven’t talked that much about Whole Life.  We are coming right to the end of the show but I’d love for you to share a little bit about that creation because that’s been a pretty amazing thing that you’ve brought on to the planet.

Rowan:  Thanks you.  Well, Whole Life was actually founded long before me.  It was founded in ’81.  It was the original expo that showcased all of the new thought around consciousness, spirituality, self-improvement, and sustainability – those questions.

It is absolutely what has seeded UrthTV.  UrthTV is the international version, the 24/7 version of that Expo.  What is happening with Whole Life is that is now being taken into retail centers that will be in cities.  Those will be a place where you’ll be able to go and see a speaker and go and meet with your community.  There will be a small café there. 

It will be in a way, the physical complement to UrthTV.

Meredith:  You can find out more about Whole Life at wholelife.com.  I would love to tell our listeners just a little personal story and then I’m you Rowan, to leave them with a little bit of inspiration.

I had just left the corporate world.   This is maybe about six or seven years ago.  I did a seminar, a workshop called the Landmark Forum, which is at landmarkeducation.com.  One of the elements of that seminar or that retreat was coming up with really extending and creating something that is extraordinary or almost ridiculous as a possibility, actually creating it.

So I made a list of three companies and people that I wanted to meet.  I was a little bit younger then and didn’t go after things in quite the way that I do now.  Well, maybe that’s not true, but anyway, I made a list of the three companies.

The top company on the list was Whole Life.  And that’s how I met you.

Rowan:  That’s right.  I remember it very well.

Meredith:  Yeah.  So I remember –

Rowan:  My sister hired you as her boss.

Meredith:  Yes, yes, Rowan’s sister hired me as her boss, working on marketing.  So really what I want our listeners to know is that the thing that I really believe that Rowan does best is create and manifest her reality and it’s done through, I guess, Rowan, you could tell them actually how it’s done.  You would know better than me from what I’m witnessing.  But that’s really what I believe that you brought to me, was illuminating that ability.  So tell them how it’s done.

Rowan:  [Laughs] It’s really, I suppose done mostly through visualization and holding that vision for what I want to see in the world.  It’s done more through my inner work than through anything outside of myself.

Meredith:  Well, I’m very, very, very grateful for the inner work that you’ve done.  So before we close our show, I will let you do that, Rowan, and leave our listeners with a bit of inspiration.

Rowan:  I would like to share with all of you that you are truly the most valuable thing on this planet.  As each of you and each you us wakes up to that then all of the other choices we make become so much easier and so much more natural, because we want to do the things that work for us, work for the people around us and work for our planet.

Meredith:  Thank you Rowan.  That brings us to the end of our show.  Thank you so much for listening.

You are here with Meredith Medland and Rowan Gabrielle.

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For text and transcripts of this show, and other shows on the Personal Life Media Network, please visit our website at www.personallifemedia.com.  This is your host Meredith Medland, illuminating the psychology of ecology.

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