Alissa Kriteman – Understanding Women, Men & “Lovership”
Sex, Love and Intimacy
Chip August

Episode 12 - Alissa Kriteman – Understanding Women, Men & “Lovership”

My guest this episode is show host, author and entrepreneur, Alissa Kriteman. Alissa appeared as The Dreamer on ABC’s reality show How to Get the Guy and is the author of Meet the Dreamer: Alissa’s Four Cornerstones for Living Your Dreams available on Alissa brings a sassy and bold approach to all that she does. With a background as a Professional Life Coach and Relationship Expert, Alissa brings a wealth of insight and knowledge to her latest venture as the host of the hot, new podcast show, Just For Women: Dating, Relationships and Sex distributed by Personal Life Media, Inc. Join us in a fascinating and funny conversation about understanding men: their needs, wants, desires. Alissa has great insights into how women can avoid "turning Princes into Frogs." And we'll also talk about understanding women, helping women take responsibility for their femininity and sexuality. And don't miss Alissa's insights into what she calls "lovership", that place between "just dating" and "big-R-relationship". And stay tuned as Alissa leads us in a transformational exercise from her book. More details on this episode go to



Alissa Kriteman - Understanding Women, Men & "Lovership"

Announcer:  This program is intended for mature audiences only.


Chip August: Welcome to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I am your host, Chip August. And today on the show, we are going to be talking about some trends and insights about dating, and relationships and sex.

Alissa Kriteman: From my own experience with emasculating men, there is a huge responsibility that's available for women in understanding who men are.

Well, I can't make you be anything that I want. I certainly can understand who you are as a man and how to be more effective with you, and get what I want!

What lovership starts to bring into life, are the woman's desires, the man's as well. Men can do a passion index also. And then you can share it with your partner.

[music ends]

Chip August: Our guest today is Alissa Kriteman. Alissa is an amazing woman. She is the host of a show on Personal Life Media, called "Just For Women", a podcast. And I want to welcome you to the show. Welcome, Alissa.

Alissa Kriteman: Thank you, Chip. I am so excited to be here and share all this juicy information with you. So, thank you.

Chip August: Well, thank you. I really appreciate you for making the time. Alissa is an author. She has written a wonderful book called, "Living Your Dreams," which I hope she is going to talk about a little bit on the show. She is, as I said, the host of an amazing host called "Just For Women," right here on Personal Life Media network. She is also a healer and a pretty interesting seeker, and interesting mind looking at things sexual, and about women, and women's roles in dating and relationship.

And today we are going to talk about things like the new feminism. We are going to talk about the difference between, perhaps, relationship and lovership. We are going to talk about women's sexuality with Alissa.

Alissa Kriteman: Fasten your seat-belts, everyone.

Chip August: So I want to know first, what makes you an expert on this? Like, why should we listen to you even? What do you know about this?

Alissa Kriteman: What makes me an expert? OK, first of all, I am a woman. I have been a woman for a very long time. You know, it has always been my deep desire to understand myself and what makes me tick and how I can be the most effective, loving human being on the planet. And so, really, my entire life has been designed around that.

I have always been a pioneer, sort of pushing the edges of myself to be. I have always taken on healing relationships in my life, namely with my family. You know, coming to California was a huge mind-awakening for me, and heart-opening, because, you know, I am from the east. I was raised Catholic, with an Italian mother and a Jewish father.

So, I just grew up with a lot of boxes, and beliefs, that I realized once I came to California, those beliefs weren't necessarily my own. So I have been on an inquiry for a very long time, as to who I am. And I think, being the host of this show is really a culmination of that desire to know, in a very deep way, who I am.

But the show, you know, Just For Women, dating, relationships, and sex, is very specific. It is for women who want more in their life, whatever it is, whether it is better sex, financial stability, how to communicate better with men, how to love herself more. So, it is just another pathway for me, to learn in a very deep way, with the experts that I am interviewing and to share that information with other women. It's really my passion, and a blessing.

Chip August: It all sounds amazing. Now, I assume everyone would want to know, like the things that you just said, everyone would want some of that. So tell me, what are some of the insights that you are getting as you talk to these experts?

Alissa Kriteman: OK. I think my most favorite interviews so far are with -- and not to pick favorites, because all of these interviews are incredible,  from the Authentic Women Experience, which actually I want to talk about in a little bit, because I did that course last weekend, and it is phenomenal.

That's one thing I want to make a point to say is, I actually do the work. I am not a talking head who is just sharing information. I actually go in. I am having these personal experiences and I think that is one of the things that really makes the show juicy, and why I can go as deep as I do. It is because I am doing the work and I want to empower women to do the work also.

I want them to know the kinds of workshops that are available and to get in touch with these amazing course leaders and get coaching, do the courses, whatever it is, because those are the pathways and the keys to having the juiciest, most amazing life that I know women want to have.

To, just pick a few, I think, most insightful for me, is with, Allison Armstrong. In all of her work on understanding men, and in particular she has this phrase, she calls "frog farmer." You know, she talks about women being frog farmers. We talk about that on the show, and what it is, is a woman who turns a man from a prince into a frog.

And I noticed that I was a frog farmer. It is the most devastating thing when you realize, "Oh my God, these guys are really great. And when I am done with them, they are hopping off the lily pad into the water, to get away from you. I am like, what is happening?"

I think it is a really fun term, to address a very serious issue that is happening among women; beautiful, powerful, savvy, together women, who don't necessarily have the information on who men are, that are really going to help them have a powerful relationship. And so, I love that frog farmer.

Another very poignant thing she talks about is women understanding how men respond. Like actually communicate, and I have been trying this on my life. It is called the 30 to 60 second pause. So you ask a man a question, just be quiet for 30 to 60 seconds, and let him answer. And what happens is, men respond in layers. They will give you the superficial answer at the beginning and instead of taking him on a tangent, just keep listening, smile in silence, and let him slowly tell you the deeper levels of his experience or whatever is in his heart.

Because a lot of women, they think men are shallow. And he is not sharing, and he is not telling me. No, it is all there. You just have to learn how to listen, and how men actually speak with us. Oh, my God, I have so many examples of that in my life. Because I never knew that, and once I learned that, it was like a whole new ball game. And it takes practice. I am definitely a woman who has a lot of energy, I want to hear everything, I am very curious. But with a man, really the gift is remaining silent, and let him just unfold that information.

Chip August: I have to say that a part of what I do when I lead my workshops is we don't actually let people have conversations. You have two minutes to speak, the other person just listens. Then they have two minutes to speak, you just listen. For whatever reason, in our conversation we are so busy, thinking of the next thing we are going to say, trying to prepare a response, we are so busy having to jump on the thing the person said, that we don't give either men or women the opportunity just to slow down and think about what they are saying, and then see if there is a deeper place to go.

I am curious about this, you said, frog farmers. I love this idea. It makes me wonder though, in my ego, I think you can't make me into anything that I am not. Like I have got free will and self-determination. How do you make me from a prince into a frog? Tell me about this.

Alissa Kriteman: I don't know. I don't think I would agree, because from my own experience with emasculating men, there is a huge responsibility that's available for women in understanding who men are. Criticism, mothering them, doing a lot of unconscious things that we are really, probably, raised to do. My mother, the way she related to my father, was not very healthy. I learned that as a child, and then I had to unlearn that as an adult. And I think a lot of women are in the same boat.

We are not taught anywhere, how to have an effective relationship, how to understand men. That is why this category is so huge. It's why I do my show. It's why I bring authors and experts like Allison Armstrong, Susan Campbell, Celeste Danielle, the Authentic Women Experience. It is why I bring these people and give them more access and a mouthpiece to women to share with them there is a whole fount of information about how we can be more effective in our relationships. And yes, while I can't make you be anything that I want. I can certainly understand who you are as a man, and how to be more effective with you, and get what I want. And have the kind of love, relationship, sex, communication, intimacy that I really want to have by understanding who you are, because we just are not taught that, certainly not a woman.

Chip August: So when I listened to you say this, my mind kind of goes to, "Oh, my goodness, our feminists screaming, "Hey, why are you man-centered here?" And you know, a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. And how does this relate to feminism?

Alissa Kriteman: Well, you know, you mentioned a sort of a new feminism, that is happening. And what I see happening, is women are starting to take responsibility for being a woman, We are not men, and it's OK. I think it's so important to understand, it's critical. Look where feminism went. We get to this levels that, where we are like, "Rah, rah, rah, we want this, we want that. We want more equality." OK, great, good. Let's fight a good fight.

But we also want to be women. We want to be soft and vulnerable and surrender, and stop fighting so much. And one of the trends that I am noticing, there is starting to be very much dialogued about is this alpha female. This concept of the alpha female, who is making the money, running the household, this thing, that thing; but is she happy? I don't know, this is what we are looking at. Is she getting her needs met? Because she is having to take up all the slack of the man. Is she able to be her natural feminine self? Is she having the kind of orgasm that she wants to have? Is she relaxing in the way she wants to?

I don't know, if you look at depression, you look all these kinds of health issues that are coming up with women. So, these are the kinds of things that we are looking at. I like to look at feminism, in a new way, where feminine is actually working its way back into the world and her natural feminine desires and flow can come and really feed and foster what we are doing. I am not saying we don't have to work hard. Women are multi-taskers anyway. We like to be in control. Yeah, but not all the time, you know. Let's find the balance between having a powerful man in our life and being a powerful woman and opening up a dynamic that actually is going to work for both of us.

Another concept that is coming up is this idea of lovership. Lovership is the bridge between dating and partnership. We have four dates, and it's like, "OK, this guy is hot. I think I am ready to go a little deeper with him, have a little more intimacy, have sex, things of that nature. I am not ready to have a partnership, or we are going to share finances, move in together." There is this whole broad spectrum of kinds of relationships that are happening, that I don't think people are talking about.

Christian Carter, who is another guy I am going to interview on my show. Amazing information coming out of Christian Carter, who I actually did an interview with. He talks about the instant relationship, that women go from dating straight into unconscious instant relationship. This is what I am talking about. This is why this concept of lovership is so important, because it inherently builds into it, a foundation of communication, trust, honesty.

Hey, what are the cornerstones of what we are doing here. I want to have sex with you. OK, great. You want to have sex with me. OK, great. Do you have any diseases that are going to kill me? We are going to be monogamous? We are going to be non-monogamous? What does this look like? People are not having these critical conversations that actually feed a successful partnership.

Chip August: This is amazing stuff. I want to take a short break, give our sponsors a chance to support us and give us a chance to support our sponsors. You are listening to Sex, Love and Intimacy. My name is Chip August, and we will be right back.


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Chip August: We are back. You are listening to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I am your host, Chip August. I am talking to Alissa Kriteman. We are talking about women and relationships, and before we went to break, Alissa, you were talking about instant relationships, something about lovership, and communication, talking about what you want.

As you were talking, I had this moment of, Well, how do people learn how to do that? We are very good at asking for what we want. I am not sure we are even very good at knowing what we want.

Alissa Kriteman: It's true. We are not. Which is why lovership is so important, I think. It's a new training ground for people to start to access, especially women, what is it that I want. One of the first cornerstones of creating a lovership, is this passion index, which is a living list of what am I passionate about. I do an interview with happiness expert, Amy Kojay, and she talks about this lovership concept and the passion index, which is like I said, this living inventory of what is intensely positive and intensely negative emotion in what you do.

When you discover, OK, I am really having a strong reaction to this, you write it down in this journal, and you start to inquire what is at the root of this intense emotion that I am having. The positive ones become what you are passionate about. The negative ones become your boundaries. It helps you create, this is what I am going to go after. These are my non-negotiables.

This is deeply important for creating a powerful foundation for you and your life for what kind of relationship you are going to have. Now where did this all come about? It doesn't come about. It's rare that it comes about in dating. Who is talking about this stuff? No one. And then we are going to get straight to partnership.

What lovership starts to bring to life are the woman's desires, the man's as well. Men can do a passion index also. And then you can share it with your partner. But the fear of about lovership is that, it's so creative, and it's so expansive and it's so lends itself to people to get what they want, and to really inquire, and of course, from my experience, you know, there are hundreds of courses, to take books to read. You know, millions. How do you communicate better, you know. And one of the resounding themes, that I hear over and over and over again is about this authenticity.

I do a lot of work with the Authentic SF Company in  San Fransisco. Their whole company is built around authentic relating. One big piece, you know I mentioned, Authentic Woman Experience, and how I had gone and done that course myself. Changed my life, completely changed my life. They showed me the importance of women being honest about how they are feeling in the moment. Because I think, women are so afraid to feel anger, so afraid to feel disappointment. We think we are going to get stuck there. We are going to be depressed. That's not true.

What we are finding is that the body really doesn't want to stay in a depressive state. It's not even the mind, it's really the body. Because the mind's all over the map, we will talk about that later. But it is the body that wants joy and openness. And so it contains all that anger from when you were a kid, and repressed and closed and shut, and then told, girls are supposed to be this way, don't feel that anger. And we all know that it scares the heck out of men, when we do that.

So this course was about giving  women finally the freedom - just be angry. It's OK. Do it in a way that is responsible. But do it. And on the other side of me getting through all my anger with my sister and that relationship and how she didn't support me, you know, and all the stuff from the past, getting into those deep angry spots on the other side is so much love, So much love I have for women in my life, I didn't even notice.

I have a lot of female friends, but I didn't even notice the subtle barriers, unconscious subtle barriers that were there between me and my women friends, me and female mentors. You know, it's like a blind spot. My blind spot started to become more and more visible to me, de-veiled. And then, on the next day, we did getting through all the deep anger with men. And I have to tell you, if any women wants to have a powerful successful relationship with men, we got to get through those initial wounds. That's where I think we are headed with the work that people are doing now. It's somatic, it's in the body. We've got to give ourselves permission to have the feelings that we are having, in a very responsible way. Save container that have them, get it out of the body, because there is so much love on the other side.

Chip August: There seems to be right now a whole body of literature which is telling men and women, know you are talking too much. You are doing too much emoting. You are doing too much processing. And that really, what men and women need to do is shut-up. What they need to do is just look into each other's eyes. What they need to do is just be physically present but stop talking. Really, there must be six books on the subject now, that are all about not communicating.

And then, I listen to you, and I am imagining, "Oh my God! Is my relationship going to be, all I am doing is talking about my feelings, all you do is talk about your feelings, and all we are ever doing is talking."

Alissa Kriteman: Well, that's a good point. And what I would say to that, is the key in that is being responsible, and women, not necessarily utilizing the relationship with a man, or even another woman, not having the relationship be the place for processing, but really doing the course-work, maybe going to a therapist, maybe going to a sex and intimacy coach. You know, there is so many kinds of coaches these days. And people get really tweaked when, you know, you have therapy, and it's like, is there something wrong with me?

Therapy is the number one thing you could do for yourself. I don't know about traditional therapy where you are focused on the problem. You know, Amy Kojay, the happiness expert, her work is in the realm of positive psychology and organization psychology, which is very distinct from traditional clinical psychology. Listen to that interview for the distinction. I can talk about that ad nauseum.

But, well, it takes balance. I think it is a balance between, as I said before, being quiet listening to a man, being able to be present enough in your body to be with another. But listen, what is going to happen when you are gazing into somebody's eyes. Your energy is going to build. There is going to be heat. There is going to be, you know, movement. If your body is open to knowing how to flow that energy, where is it going to go? It is going to be more containment. More, you are going out of your body.

So it is a balance. Let's talk. Hey, I am thinking this. Are you feeling that? I don't necessarily think we need to process, but who knows? It goes back to the lovership, and what kind of relationship are you going to have. What kind of relationship do you want? Because there is many types. We could have a relationship that is all about legacy, and focusing on your children, leaving a legacy for them. You could have a relationship that's about companionship. We are just going to be together and we know that's the number one thing. You could have relationship that is all about karmic dissolution. And that we are in this relationship to activate every button that's in our body, and we are going to stay together no matter what. I mean there is so many kinds and types of relationships to have. And there is the relationship that you want to create on your own.

Chip August: What if you want it all?

Alissa Kriteman: You probably could. I am a huge advocate of having whatever you want. I mean, it's all about asking for what you want, knowing what you want, asking for it, and not being attached. And really, I think, another piece of that is trusting the non-physical forces, the universe, you know. We have heard about the secret, the law of attraction. And trusting that when you are really focused on what it is you want, that the universe is going to come up and support you, in that trusting in your intuitive guidance, is this the next step I should be taking? That as well. So, sure. You can have it all. Have some guidelines, have some parameters.

So you can stay focused on what you might want from an ego place, not necessarily what your spirit wants. So, I think understanding, and maybe dropping from your head into your heart, or even the lower centers for guidance and information, is important too. And I am doing an interview coming up, with a woman named Zenda Brock, and she has this whole power manifestation, trusting your internal guidance system to live the life you are really meant to have as well. So...

Chip August: Every other sentence you would say, feels like we could do an hour interview. It's just, it's great. We are going to take a short break, to give us a chance to show some support to our sponsors. You are listening to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I am your host, Chip August, and we will be back in just a moment.


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Chip August: We are back. My name is Chip August. You are listening to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I am talking to Alissa Kriteman, and we've been talking about women, and sexuality and lovership and all kinds of wonderful things.

Alissa, I want to learn a little bit about you. So here you are, sort of learning about all stuff about relationships, and learning all the stuff about communication, are you in relationships? Do you use this stuff in your life?

Alissa Kriteman: I use this every single day. I actually have a binder. After I do an interview, and I type up the notes, it is becoming a sort of relationship bible. And I really hope that someday I know I will create a book, so that women can have my gleaning of the top information from today's leading experts on what you need to know to love yourself, empower yourself, have the most juicy life you want to have. Absolutely, I use it.

You know, I am single, right now, which is why I think I love the lovership concept so much, because I see the pitfalls that I have fallen into, in putting men into boxes, giving up my own power in relationship, emasculating men, unconsciously emasculating men, not really even understanding how I was destroying intimacy with men. And I feel like I am getting a PhD in what it is to be a women, and it is just my honor to be able to share that with other women, because women are changing.

There is a resurgence of, I don't even know if it is a resurgence, but there is something happening in the area of female empowerment ,where women are reclaiming their power. But again, like we had talked about before, in a very feminine way, where flow and nurturance and self-acceptance and love and trust of oneself and why we are here, as women, as we trust more and more our inner guidance, the more we start to see and manifest into our lives all the amazing things that we want to have.

And how we stop looking externally for guidance from anyone, the men in our lives, the mentors, family, whatever. But really the journey within. And I think there is a lot being discussed and written about that. So I am a, number one, a proponent of bringing that information to women. And yeah, of course, I utilize it every day. I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't excited about it. And wow! That is a great tip.

When I interviewed Allison Armstrong, it took everything I had to stay prescient, because she was telling me, step by step, moment by moment, just laying out for me all the things I had been doing to destroy relationships with men, and I could hardly breathe. So I know if I can help one women transform who she can be, so she can have the kind of love she wants in her life, I have done my job.

Chip August: Alissa, before we go, I would really like to know a little bit more about your book, "Meet The Dreamer." It is a fascinating book. How did you come to write it and how can people get it?

Alissa Kriteman: Well, Meet the Dreamer, I wrote out of my participation on a ABC television show. It was called, "How to Get the Guy." And it aired last summer. It was about four women in San Francisco looking for their love. And it was from the producers of "Clear out for the Straight Guy." I would never have done a television show that was about competition and in-fighting and all of that.

But this show was really fun, very respectful of a woman's process in finding love and there were love coaches and we were coached on dating techniques basically, and how to find the one man who was particularly interesting to me as the dreamer. I was cast a little bit as a kind of hippie type.

Anyway, so it was called, "Meet the Dreamer: Alissa's Four Cornerstones to Living Your Dreams." And the four cornerstones are, dream big dreams, set powerful intentions, take bold action, and offer gratitude for all that you have. What I love about my book is that I wrote it before the Secret and the Law of Attraction really hit the mainstream. Because I have been living this work for seven years. And that is how I live. I focus on what I want, and I vehemently go for it.

I set powerful intentions every day, every moment really. If I find myself a little off-kilter about something, I take bold action. Being on a television show, that's pretty bold. Being the host of Just for Women, pretty bold. It really helps me to stay alive. And then offering gratitude. What I love about that, is it really gets you centered in why your life is great. Because sometimes we tend to forget that. But if we are focused on what we are grateful for, already, that is a pathway to receiving more.

If we are stuck in some mind-spin about how terrible things are, we are going to get more of that. So each step is powerful and critical, in and of itself. So it was really fun to write that book, and I really hope that women will check it out. You can buy it on Amazon, at

Chip August: On the text that goes along with the show, we will also have a link. So if you click on the book title, it will let you purchase it. I always like to ask my guest, if they have a exercise in particular that they could lead my listeners in. Because I think one of the nice things about this show, is that every show you get an exercise, you get something to learn. And I understand that you picked up something from your book, would you share it with us, please.

Alissa Kriteman: So, one of the exercises I think that are very powerful, is something I call a transformation tree. And it is basically starting at the roots, going up through the trunk, out through the branches to the leaves, and it is about transforming negative thoughts, beliefs, or situations into the juicy fruit that you are going to be able to enjoy. So how it works is like this.

So you find yourself in a situation where you are having a negative thought or a negative belief come up, and it doesn't seem to be moving. So, it's OK. You just want to go into the negative belief, state it to yourself. Maybe it is something like, I don't believe my ex-boyfriend really loved me. OK. I don't believe my ex-boyfriend really loved me, you are noticing body sensations, your heart's tight, your stomach doesn't feel so good, you feel upset, you feel sad.

The next step is to think about alternative possible perspectives. What is some other perspective you can make up about how you are feeling. OK. So this is something I did recently. So I was thinking this, you know, I don't think he really loved me. I think he used me. I think he was just utilizing me as some kind of vehicle for his own garbage in his life, whatever. To have the mind will spin out like out.

So my next step was, OK, what are some other possible perspectives I could have about this. And I started to really think about some of the things he had shared with me, about his life, his background, his upbringing and things, declarations of love that he had shared with me, flowers he had sent, notes he had written, and I realized - there are other perspectives here.

And I thought, maybe he was just so scared that he didn't know how to deal with the love in his heart. Maybe he had no facility with really being with the depth of the love that he and I shared together. And then I thought, OK, that's one perspective. Another perspective. Maybe he just wasn't ready in his life to do the work that he knew was required, that being in a relationship with me was going to necessitate. So I started to think of all these different perspectives, and I actually started to feel better.

The third step is asking yourself how can I be responsible for this situation. Now this is a very vulnerable place. How can I be responsible for this situation? And I really had to look and think. You know, I chose him. I was in that relationship. There were things that were happening that I wasn't necessarily 100% behind or for. And I didn't communicate. I went on unconscious, I pretended, you know. And I started to list all the ways that I could be responsible for myself. Started to feel a little better.

Fourth step: what thought emotion that can I let go off. So I started to think, I can let go of all these self-sabotaging thinking, that he was really out to get me, that he was really just using me. I mean, I just let go of all that stuff. Started to focus on, you know, he really loved me, he really professed his love to me, over and over again. He professed his frustration with how I was communicating with me. And really I had to go to the depths of what was really going on and take responsibility for how I was doing. And what I could let go of that were, maybe, probably, just my own unconscious blocks and barriers to love. So I started to let go of all of those negative thoughts and emotions.

The fifth step is what action can I take today to turn this into my favor. And again one of them, the second cornerstone to the book, Powerful Intentions. I committed to focusing on the good. I promised to focus on the ways that this man gave me learning lessons, for how to relate with men, how he contributed to my life. He was the one that introduced me to the book publisher. He is the one that opened his heart and shared his world with me. So I started to create a new reality, which is the last step. I started to create a whole new relationship with this man, born out of the new thoughts and the new beliefs, which were much more based inn responsibility, love, intimacy, and what we can create now, versus getting caught up in some kind of fear based, automatic unconscious patterns from the past.

This exercise is about creating new realities for yourself. And again it is in my book, Alissa's Four Cornerstones to Living Your Dreams, and you can find that on

Chip August: Thank you so much. That was just great. Learning how to change our thoughts, learning how to change our minds. So, thank you so much, it changes everything. I want to thank you for being on the show. Alissa, you have just been terrific. You are a wonderful guest. We are just about out of time.

I want to say to my listeners a couple of things. One is that for text and transcripts of this show, and other shows on Personal Life Networks, please visit our website at, PersonalLifeMedia, as if it's all one word .com. Also I want to let you know that the friendly folks at have given me all kinds of goodies to give away. And so if you will send me an email with a suggestion for a show, and I use your suggestion, why, I will be happy to send one to you. Just send me an email and let me know.

You can reach me, I am [email protected]. and I am always happy to hear your comments and hear how the show is affecting you. So please get in touch with me, I would love to hear from you. Thanks so much, Alissa. Thanks so much, listeners, for being with me. Be with you next time. Bye bye for now.


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