Personal Life Media

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

The 6th Annual AREDAY – American Renewable Energy Day – produced by long-time environmental activist and filmmaker Chip Comins -- is a uniquely innovative and interactive annual gathering of co-creative change in this time of Yes We Can, and Yes We Must. It will take place Aug. 20-22, 2009 in the beauty of summertime in the Rocky Mountains in Aspen, Colorado. This year’s focus is “The Problem IS the Solution: Wall Street Meets Green Street – Creating the New Energy Economy”, bringing together a truly amazing array of people.

This gathering will present all of us in attendance with an extraordinary opportunity not just to share information on visionary perspectives and practical tools for change, but to directly experience and co-create one of most important global transformations of our times. Participants will include a number of the people I have dialogued with on this site, such as Lester Brown, Bracken Hendricks, Van Jones, Bob Gough of Intertribal COUP, and many more. See Living Dialogues Episodes 68 and 70.

Details, list of other key participants you will appreciate, and registration information available at www.areday.net.

At last year’s AREDAY, Ted Turner was asked what he told the Board after he resigned from Time Warner in the wake of the AOL fiasco. He replied: “I just told them to stop doing the dumb things, and start doing the smart things.”

To get a sense of how profound this simple message is if our public and private powers would only apply this advice, why they don’t, and why it really is true that the ball is in our court as citizens to show the way, that only “if the people will lead, the leaders will follow”, consider the following statements from one of this year’s AREDAY keynote speakers, Amory Lovins (then a 29 year old physicist), made thirty-three years ago, in his seminal article in Foreign Affairs magazine entitled “Energy Strategy – The Road Not Taken?”:

At a time before Al Gore was even in Congress, Lovins noted: “The commitment (of U.S. policy) to a long-term coal economy many times the scale of today’s makes the doubling of atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration early in the next century virtually unavoidable, with the prospect then or soon thereafter of substantial and perhaps irreversible changes in global climate.” He dubbed this “the hard path.”

The alternative, which Lovins called “the soft path,” favored “benign” sources of renewable power like wind and the sun, along with a heightened commitment to meeting energy demands through conservation and efficiency. Such a heterodox blend of clean technologies, Lovins argued, would bring a host of salutary effects: a healthier environment, an end to our dependence on Middle East oil, a diminished likelihood of future wars over energy, and the foundation of a vibrant new economy.”

[The preceding two paragraphs are from the summary by Joshua Green in his article “Better Luck This Time”, reviewing the history of U.S. policy persisting in “doing the dumb things” all this time, in the July-August issue of The Atlantic magazine.]

In my view, the U.S. is weighted down with the collective albatross in this Second Gilded Age of greed by highly centralized corporate systems beyond the control of our public government, including the U.S. financial system, fossil fuel energy and utility system, and health care system, among others – disconnected from any meaningful innovation and the public good.

We will be exploring these aspects – and how they relate to the evolutionary imperative of consciousness transformation -- in future dialogues, including the upcoming next dialogues with Jeffrey Hopkins, the translator the Dalai Lama’s new book “Becoming Enlightened” (No. 100), Gillian Tett of the Financial Times of London on “Fool’s Gold” the creation by ambitious, self-centered Wall Street “high fliers” of the global economic catastrophe (Nos. 101 and 102), and David Korten on an “Agenda for a New Economy” (Nos. 103 and 104), followed by Judith Orloff on “Emotional Freedom”, and more to come.

In the meantime, we invite you and look forward to seeing you at AREDAY on Aug. 20-22, 2009 in the natural beauty of Aspen, Colorado. As a listener to Living Dialogues, you can still receive an early bird discount by emailing Chip Comins directly at [email protected]

And if you cannot physically put yourself in Aspen Colorado for AREDAY, you’re very much invited to continue participating through your deep listening to not only this dialogue (and those related Living Dialogues listed above and below), but to our continuing Living Dialogues after that. And also to honor the fact that really it is true -- and we’re experiencing it with great gratitude for our listenership and their Website Contact emails from around the world -- that as the world becomes smaller, “yes, we can” and do experience in greater depth and greater celebration our own common humanity and our personal ability to shape our collective destiny in very real ways.

“We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth…. and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it…why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration…" -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

As we say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livihngdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

This is the seventh and last in a seven-part series of “Pilgrimage Dialogues” forming part of and leading up to a Conference Gathering in Fort Collins, Colorado on May 29-30, 2009, entitled “2012 NOW – Empowering the Transformation”, for which I am serving as the Master of Ceremonies and opening presenter. Past Living Dialogues in this series have included dialogues with myself and Robert Sitler, John Major Jenkins, Stanislav Grof, Richard Tarnas (parts 1 and 2), and with Sobonfu Some’.

Details and registration information available at www.unveiling2012.org.

Duncan Campbell: 2012 Now: Empowering The Transformation, a uniquely innovative, interactive and affordable gathering in this time of global uncertainty, will take place Friday night and all day Saturday May 29 and 30 at the Lincoln Center for Performing Arts in Fort Collins, Colorado. Beyond just information, to practical tools for change and direct experience of participating in the ongoing transformation of our times. Now is the time and the opportunity to synchronize consciousness with the evolutionary pulse of the cosmos. Join participants bringing stories from around the planet as we explore, co-create, and experience together the transformative dynamics necessary for a successful transit from now through the year 2012 and beyond. More information available on the Conference website, www.unveiling2012.org. See you there.

The meaning of the Greek word “Apocalypse” is “lifting the veil” or “revelation”. These seven “pilgrimage dialogues” in advance of the Gathering – contemporary 21st century versions of the medieval Canterbury Tales – are examples of such revelatory “shared stories” on this Road of 2012 NOW.

Here is a summary dialogue excerpt describing the Conference between myself and Sobonfu Some’, who will conduct the concluding ritual of celebration:

Sobonfu Some’: Well I really believe that initiation is a necessity, you know, much like, you know, 2012 is saying “here is a big initiation”. It, initiation, is a necessity because we have to initiate in order to be able to move forward, to be able to tap into our essence, into our gift and so on. And, you know, in my African tradition the first initiation that we all go through is that of being born, because we are coming from being full of spirit to taking on this human tool that we call the body. And, you know, also, we’ll go through many, many initiations. And I think what we’re talking about in the Conference is that we’re going to get to the place where we are basically going to celebrate being able to give birth to our self and to whatever new vision is going to come out of this Conference Gathering -- so that we can together welcome each other and celebrate together. And I think that is the icing on the cake, you know, that is awaiting us.

Duncan Campbell: I think absolutely that’s the case, and myself as Master of Ceremonies and yourself as the person who will be leading us in the concluding celebratory ritual are both involved in helping the entire gathering to activate, all of us together, a kind of transformational space -- including not only the presenters who will be articulating on the stage, but all of the participants with their deep listening who are evoking the insights that are articulated coming out of the group energy field. And this opportunity for expression will also be something we can all look forward to at the extended lunch time on Saturday, when there’s going to be a large and deliberate space for people in very small groups to share stories, deep stories, with each other and evoke and integrate their experience. This is very essential to a true initiation -- that is not just a one way transmission of information, but is actually a transformative initiation -- where together we can evoke an experience that is both intimate and personal in our sense of shift, as well as a kind of collective amplification that allows all of us to celebrate, as Barack Obama suggested in his Inaugural Address, “our common humanity”. And that experience has a great carry over effect into our everyday lives and relationships.

Sobonfu Some’: Now how amazing is that, because, you know, a lot of people go into conferences and never really get to put in their voice; and, you know, in my Dagara people’s African tradition, when you go anywhere we are always trying to get our voice in, you know, to express yourself with and to others, because it’s like we are all making this huge cauldron and the stories that we bring, everything we share of our self, is part of what is going to make whatever we’re cooking really delicious. And for people to be able to have this opportunity as a gift, not only to themselves but a gift to the community, I really believe is amazing.

Duncan Campbell: That’s beautifully put. I love the image that you give here of together we’re collectively creating a crucible or a great cauldron, not only a crucible for the water of life, but a great cauldron in which to cook and use the fire of life to transform our experience, because these are transformative elements, all of the elements are: Earth is nurturing, Wind is empowering, a Fire literally is transforming, and Water is liquid and fluid and moves between the solid state of ice to the evaporated state of the clouds. And so every one of the elements will be involved here. We will be having time outdoors; we will be celebrating the natural world in a beautiful natural environment in Fort Collins, Colorado. And I think that these “pilgrimage dialogues” are pointing to that transformation as they are evolving here. In my first dialogue, with Robert Sitler, he emphasized the joy and the wisdom that is accessible in everyday life that he himself has experienced in the Mayan culture and which he shares so beautifully. Next has been John Major Jenkins, whose great research into the galactic alignment and embedding it and situating it in connection to the primordial tradition, sometimes called the perennial philosophy, has shown how we can bring all of this that 2012 is pointing to into the Now; that this “2012 phenomenon” is not an event that we’re waiting for, that we’re going to have to be acted upon at some time in the future, but it is an atmosphere of opportunity that is present right here, right now…And that energy field is present right now in helping germinate and evoke from you and I what we’re saying and inviting people to; so that in a sense you and I are acting here as inviters and embodiments of the kind of dialogue and transformation that we can anticipate will be happening among us all and amplified at that particular moment on May 29 and May 30 of the Gathering. But that’s only a moment in a continuum of many moments before and after, that we’re all already uncovering and witnessing being unveiled in people all over the world.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and, you know, as you speak and you share that it makes me think about today being this energy that renews itself time and again, which gets stronger every time, as the energy is being shared every time. So as people today listen to this dialogue, and share it with other people, it is renewed and it gets stronger and so on. That’s the image that came to me.

Duncan Campbell: Well, I have to say, Sobonfu, it’s been just a wonderful opportunity here for myself and our other deep listeners, and yourself for that matter, for us to have this chance and opportunity to engage in this dialogue together, and I have always so appreciated the great joy and cheerfulness that you embody and bring to any time that I’ve ever had the pleasure and privilege to encounter you. And so I’m very much looking forward to this conference, even as I’m deeply appreciating the present moment here, because the gift I think of this very dialogue is not only to inspire that more such moments can happen between us, but in one’s own life everyday, today for instance, and the moments that follow.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and I’m very grateful for you, for the gift of yourself to the world really and for having such a strong and powerful vision that you can not only share with the world, but that you can get other people be a part of the dance of that vision as well. And I think that is, that is a gift that not everybody has, and I thank you for holding that for all of us.

Duncan Campbell: Well thank you very much Sobonfu, and I want to thank our co-producers Larraine Tennison and John Major Jenkins and everyone involved with this project, all the presenters that are part of this pilgrimage series that is now leading us, as it were, like milestones toward the Conference Gathering on May 29 and 30. If people are wanting further information, they can go to www.unveiling2012.org. And we really extend an extraordinarily warm and intimate invitation for your continued participation. If you cannot physically put yourself in that Fort Collins environment, you’re very much invited to participate through your deep listening to not only these dialogues, but to the continuation of Living Dialogues after that, and also to honor the fact that really it is true -- and we’re experiencing it with great gratitude for our listenership and their Website Contact emails from around the world -- that as the world becomes smaller, “yes, we can” and do experience in greater depth and greater joy our own common humanity.

We invite you and look forward to seeing you at the conference on May 29 and 30, 2009 in the natural beauty of Fort Collins, Colorado, entitled “2012 NOW - Empowering the Transformation”. For further information and registration you can go to www.unveiling2012.org.

“We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth…. and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it…why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration…" -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

And as we say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

This is the sixth in a seven-part series of “Pilgrimage Dialogues” forming part of and leading up to a Conference Gathering in Fort Collins, Colorado on May 29-30, 2009, entitled “2012 NOW – Empowering the Transformation”, for which I am serving as the Master of Ceremonies and opening presenter. Past Living Dialogues in this series have included dialogues with myself and Robert Sitler, John Major Jenkins, Stanislav Grof, Richard Tarnas, and with Sobonfu Some’. The final Living Dialogue in the series will be with Christine Page.

Details and registration information available at www.unveiling2012.org.

Duncan Campbell: 2012 Now: Empowering The Transformation, a uniquely innovative, interactive and affordable gathering in this time of global uncertainty, will take place Friday night and all day Saturday May 29 and 30 at the Lincoln Center for Performing Arts in Fort Collins, Colorado. Beyond just information, to practical tools for change and direct experience of participating in the ongoing transformation of our times. Now is the time and the opportunity to synchronize consciousness with the evolutionary pulse of the cosmos. Join participants bringing stories from around the planet as we explore, co-create, and experience together the tranformative dynamics necessary for a successful transit from now through the year 2012 and beyond. More information available on the Conference website, www.unveiling2012.org. See you there.

The meaning of the Greek word “Apocalypse” is “lifting the veil” or “revelation”. These seven “pilgrimage dialogues” in advance of the Gathering – contemporary 21st century versions of the medieval Canterbury Tales – are examples of such revelatory “shared stories” on this Road of 2012 NOW.

Here is a summary dialogue excerpt describing the Conference between myself and Sobonfu Some’, who will conduct the concluding ritual of celebration:

Sobonfu Some’: Well I really believe that initiation is a necessity, you know, much like, you know, 2012 is saying “here is a big initiation”. It, initiation, is a necessity because we have to initiate in order to be able to move forward, to be able to tap into our essence, into our gift and so on. And, you know, in my African tradition the first initiation that we all go through is that of being born, because we are coming from being full of spirit to taking on this human tool that we call the body. And, you know, also, we’ll go through many, many initiations. And I think what we’re talking about in the Conference is that we’re going to get to the place where we are basically going to celebrate being able to give birth to our self and to whatever new vision is going to come out of this Conference Gathering -- so that we can together welcome each other and celebrate together. And I think that is the icing on the cake, you know, that is awaiting us.

Duncan Campbell: I think absolutely that’s the case, and myself as Master of Ceremonies and yourself as the person who will be leading us in the concluding celebratory ritual are both involved in helping the entire gathering to activate, all of us together, a kind of transformational space -- including not only the presenters who will be articulating on the stage, but all of the participants with their deep listening who are evoking the insights that are articulated coming out of the group energy field. And this opportunity for expression will also be something we can all look forward to at the extended lunch time on Saturday, when there’s going to be a large and deliberate space for people in very small groups to share stories, deep stories, with each other and evoke and integrate their experience. This is very essential to a true initiation -- that is not just a one way transmission of information, but is actually a transformative initiation -- where together we can evoke an experience that is both intimate and personal in our sense of shift, as well as a kind of collective amplification that allows all of us to celebrate, as Barack Obama suggested in his Inaugural Address, “our common humanity”. And that experience has a great carry over effect into our everyday lives and relationships.

Sobonfu Some’: Now how amazing is that, because, you know, a lot of people go into conferences and never really get to put in their voice; and, you know, in my Dagara people’s African tradition, when you go anywhere we are always trying to get our voice in, you know, to express yourself with and to others, because it’s like we are all making this huge cauldron and the stories that we bring, everything we share of our self, is part of what is going to make whatever we’re cooking really delicious. And for people to be able to have this opportunity as a gift, not only to themselves but a gift to the community, I really believe is amazing.

Duncan Campbell: That’s beautifully put. I love the image that you give here of together we’re collectively creating a crucible or a great cauldron, not only a crucible for the water of life, but a great cauldron in which to cook and use the fire of life to transform our experience, because these are transformative elements, all of the elements are: Eaarth is nurturing, Wind is empowering, a Fire literally is transforming, and Water is liquid and fluid and moves between the solid state of ice to the evaporated state of the clouds. And so every one of the elements will be involved here. We will be having time outdoors; we will be celebrating the natural world in a beautiful natural environment in Fort Collins, Colorado. And I think that these “pilgrimage dialogues” are pointing to that transformation as they are evolving here. In my first dialogue, with Robert Sitler, he emphasized the joy and the wisdom that is accessible in everyday life that he himself has experienced in the Mayan culture and which he shares so beautifully. Next has been John Major Jenkins, whose great research into the galactic alignment and embedding it and situating it in connection to the primordial tradition, sometimes called the perennial philosophy, has shown how we can bring all of this that 2012 is pointing to into the Now; that this “2012 phenomenon” is not an event that we’re waiting for, that we’re going to have to be acted upon at some time in the future, but it is an atmosphere of opportunity that is present right here, right now…And that energy field is present right now in helping germinate and evoke from you and I what we’re saying and inviting people to; so that in a sense you and I are acting here as inviters and embodiments of the kind of dialogue and transformation that we can anticipate will be happening among us all and amplified at that particular moment on May 29 and May 30 of the Gathering. But that’s only a moment in a continuum of many moments before and after, that we’re all already uncovering and witnessing being unveiled in people all over the world.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and, you know, as you speak and you share that it makes me think about today being this energy that renews itself time and again, which gets stronger every time, as the energy is being shared every time. So as people today listen to this dialogue, and share it with other people, it is renewed and it gets stronger and so on. That’s the image that came to me.

Duncan Campbell: Well, I have to say, Sobonfu, it’s been just a wonderful opportunity here for myself and our other deep listeners, and yourself for that matter, for us to have this chance and opportunity to engage in this dialogue together, and I have always so appreciated the great joy and cheerfulness that you embody and bring to any time that I’ve ever had the pleasure and privilege to encounter you. And so I’m very much looking forward to this conference, even as I’m deeply appreciating the present moment here, because the gift I think of this very dialogue is not only to inspire that more such moments can happen between us, but in one’s own life everyday, today for instance, and the moments that follow.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and I’m very grateful for you, for the gift of yourself to the world really and for having such a strong and powerful vision that you can not only share with the world, but that you can get other people be a part of the dance of that vision as well. And I think that is, that is a gift that not everybody has, and I thank you for holding that for all of us.

Duncan Campbell: Well thank you very much Sobonfu, and I want to thank our co-producers Larraine Tennison and John Major Jenkins and everyone involved with this project, all the presenters that are part of this pilgrimage series that is now leading us, as it were, like milestones toward the Conference Gathering on May 29 and 30. If people are wanting further information, they can go to www.unveiling2012.org. And we really extend an extraordinarily warm and intimate invitation for your continued participation. If you cannot physically put yourself in that Fort Collins environment, you’re very much invited to participate through your deep listening to not only these dialogues, but to the continuation of Living Dialogues after that, and also to honor the fact that really it is true -- and we’re experiencing it with great gratitude for our listenership and their Website Contact emails from around the world -- that as the world becomes smaller, “yes, we can” and do experience in greater depth and greater joy our own common humanity.

We invite you and look forward to seeing you at the conference on May 29 and 30, 2009 in the natural beauty of Fort Collins, Colorado, entitled “2012 NOW - Empowering the Transformation”. For further information and registration you can go to www.unveiling2012.org.

“We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth…. and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it…why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration…" -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

And as we say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

This is the fifth in a seven-part series of “Pilgrimage Dialogues” forming part of and leading up to a Conference Gathering in Fort Collins, Colorado on May 29-30, 2009, entitled “2012 NOW – Empowering the Transformation”, for which I am serving as the Master of Ceremonies and opening presenter. Past Living Dialogues in this series have included dialogues with myself and Robert Sitler, John Major Jenkins, Stanislav Grof, and with Sobonfu Some’. Future Living Dialogues in the series will include my dialogues with Richard Tarnas (Part 2) and with Christine Page.

Details and registration information available at www.unveiling2012.org.

Duncan Campbell: 2012 Now: Empowering The Transformation, a uniquely innovative, interactive and affordable gathering in this time of global uncertainty, will take place Friday night and all day Saturday May 29 and 30 at the Lincoln Center for Performing Arts in Fort Collins, Colorado. Beyond just information, to practical tools for change and direct experience of participating in the ongoing transformation of our times. Now is the time and the opportunity to synchronize consciousness with the evolutionary pulse of the cosmos. Join participants bringing stories from around the planet as we explore, co-create, and experience together the tranformative dynamics necessary for a successful transit from now through the year 2012 and beyond. More information available on the Conference website, www.unveiling2012.org. See you there.

The meaning of the Greek word “Apocalypse” is “lifting the veil” or “revelation”. These seven “pilgrimage dialogues” in advance of the Gathering – contemporary 21st century versions of the medieval Canterbury Tales – are examples of such revelatory “shared stories” on this Road of 2012 NOW.

Here is a summary dialogue excerpt describing the Conference between myself and Sobonfu Some’, who will conduct the concluding ritual of celebration:

Sobonfu Some’: Well I really believe that initiation is a necessity, you know, much like, you know, 2012 is saying “here is a big initiation”. It, initiation, is a necessity because we have to initiate in order to be able to move forward, to be able to tap into our essence, into our gift and so on. And, you know, in my African tradition the first initiation that we all go through is that of being born, because we are coming from being full of spirit to taking on this human tool that we call the body. And, you know, also, we’ll go through many, many initiations. And I think what we’re talking about in the Conference is that we’re going to get to the place where we are basically going to celebrate being able to give birth to our self and to whatever new vision is going to come out of this Conference Gathering -- so that we can together welcome each other and celebrate together. And I think that is the icing on the cake, you know, that is awaiting us.

Duncan Campbell: I think absolutely that’s the case, and myself as Master of Ceremonies and yourself as the person who will be leading us in the concluding celebratory ritual are both involved in helping the entire gathering to activate, all of us together, a kind of transformational space -- including not only the presenters who will be articulating on the stage, but all of the participants with their deep listening who are evoking the insights that are articulated coming out of the group energy field. And this opportunity for expression will also be something we can all look forward to at the extended lunch time on Saturday, when there’s going to be a large and deliberate space for people in very small groups to share stories, deep stories, with each other and evoke and integrate their experience. This is very essential to a true initiation -- that is not just a one way transmission of information, but is actually a transformative initiation -- where together we can evoke an experience that is both intimate and personal in our sense of shift, as well as a kind of collective amplification that allows all of us to celebrate, as Barack Obama suggested in his Inaugural Address, “our common humanity”. And that experience has a great carry over effect into our everyday lives and relationships.

Sobonfu Some’: Now how amazing is that, because, you know, a lot of people go into conferences and never really get to put in their voice; and, you know, in my Dagara people’s African tradition, when you go anywhere we are always trying to get our voice in, you know, to express yourself with and to others, because it’s like we are all making this huge cauldron and the stories that we bring, everything we share of our self, is part of what is going to make whatever we’re cooking really delicious. And for people to be able to have this opportunity as a gift, not only to themselves but a gift to the community, I really believe is amazing.

Duncan Campbell: That’s beautifully put. I love the image that you give here of together we’re collectively creating a crucible or a great cauldron, not only a crucible for the water of life, but a great cauldron in which to cook and use the fire of life to transform our experience, because these are transformative elements, all of the elements are: Eaarth is nurturing, Wind is empowering, a Fire literally is transforming, and Water is liquid and fluid and moves between the solid state of ice to the evaporated state of the clouds. And so every one of the elements will be involved here. We will be having time outdoors; we will be celebrating the natural world in a beautiful natural environment in Fort Collins, Colorado. And I think that these “pilgrimage dialogues” are pointing to that transformation as they are evolving here. In my first dialogue, with Robert Sitler, he emphasized the joy and the wisdom that is accessible in everyday life that he himself has experienced in the Mayan culture and which he shares so beautifully. Next has been John Major Jenkins, whose great research into the galactic alignment and embedding it and situating it in connection to the primordial tradition, sometimes called the perennial philosophy, has shown how we can bring all of this that 2012 is pointing to into the Now; that this “2012 phenomenon” is not an event that we’re waiting for, that we’re going to have to be acted upon at some time in the future, but it is an atmosphere of opportunity that is present right here, right now…And that energy field is present right now in helping germinate and evoke from you and I what we’re saying and inviting people to; so that in a sense you and I are acting here as inviters and embodiments of the kind of dialogue and transformation that we can anticipate will be happening among us all and amplified at that particular moment on May 29 and May 30 of the Gathering. But that’s only a moment in a continuum of many moments before and after, that we’re all already uncovering and witnessing being unveiled in people all over the world.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and, you know, as you speak and you share that it makes me think about today being this energy that renews itself time and again, which gets stronger every time, as the energy is being shared every time. So as people today listen to this dialogue, and share it with other people, it is renewed and it gets stronger and so on. That’s the image that came to me.

Duncan Campbell: Well, I have to say, Sobonfu, it’s been just a wonderful opportunity here for myself and our other deep listeners, and yourself for that matter, for us to have this chance and opportunity to engage in this dialogue together, and I have always so appreciated the great joy and cheerfulness that you embody and bring to any time that I’ve ever had the pleasure and privilege to encounter you. And so I’m very much looking forward to this conference, even as I’m deeply appreciating the present moment here, because the gift I think of this very dialogue is not only to inspire that more such moments can happen between us, but in one’s own life everyday, today for instance, and the moments that follow.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and I’m very grateful for you, for the gift of yourself to the world really and for having such a strong and powerful vision that you can not only share with the world, but that you can get other people be a part of the dance of that vision as well. And I think that is, that is a gift that not everybody has, and I thank you for holding that for all of us.

Duncan Campbell: Well thank you very much Sobonfu, and I want to thank our co-producers Larraine Tennison and John Major Jenkins and everyone involved with this project, all the presenters that are part of this pilgrimage series that is now leading us, as it were, like milestones toward the Conference Gathering on May 29 and 30. If people are wanting further information, they can go to www.unveiling2012.org. And we really extend an extraordinarily warm and intimate invitation for your continued participation. If you cannot physically put yourself in that Fort Collins environment, you’re very much invited to participate through your deep listening to not only these dialogues, but to the continuation of Living Dialogues after that, and also to honor the fact that really it is true -- and we’re experiencing it with great gratitude for our listenership and their Website Contact emails from around the world -- that as the world becomes smaller, “yes, we can” and do experience in greater depth and greater joy our own common humanity.

We invite you and look forward to seeing you at the conference on May 29 and 30, 2009 in the natural beauty of Fort Collins, Colorado, entitled “2012 NOW - Empowering the Transformation”. For further information and registration you can go to www.unveiling2012.org.

“We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth…. and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it…why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration…" -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

And as we say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

This is the fourth in a seven-part series of “Pilgrimage Dialogues” forming part of and leading up to a Conference Gathering in Fort Collins, Colorado on May 29-30, 2009, entitled “2012 NOW – Empowering the Transformation”, for which I am serving as the Master of Ceremonies and opening presenter. Past Living Dialogues in this series have included dialogues with myself and Robert Sitler, John Major Jenkins, and with Sobonfu Some’. Future Living Dialogues in the series will include other Conference presenters Richard Tarnas and Christine Page.

Details and registration information available at www.unveiling2012.org.

Duncan Campbell: 2012 Now: Empowering The Transformation, a uniquely innovative, interactive and affordable gathering in this time of global uncertainty, will take place Friday night and all day Saturday May 29 and 30 at the Lincoln Center for Performing Arts in Fort Collins, Colorado. Beyond just information, to practical tools for change and direct experience of participating in the ongoing transformation of our times. Now is the time and the opportunity to synchronize consciousness with the evolutionary pulse of the cosmos. Join participants bringing stories from around the planet as we explore, co-create, and experience together the tranformative dynamics necessary for a successful transit from now through the year 2012 and beyond. More information available on the Conference website, www.unveiling2012.org. See you there.

The meaning of the Greek word “Apocalypse” is “lifting the veil” or “revelation”. These “pilgrimage dialogues” in advance of the Gathering – contemporary 21st century versions of the medieval Canterbury Tales – are examples of such revelatory “shared stories” on this Road of 2012 NOW.

Here is a summary excerpt describing the Conference between myself and Sobonfu Some’, who will conduct the concluding ritual of celebration:

Sobonfu Some’: Well I really believe that initiation is a necessity, you know, much like, you know, 2012 is saying “here is a big initiation”. It, initiation, is a necessity because we have to initiate in order to be able to move forward, to be able to tap into our essence, into our gift and so on. And, you know, in my African tradition the first initiation that we all go through is that of being born, because we are coming from being full of spirit to taking on this human tool that we call the body. And, you know, also, we’ll go through many, many initiations. And I think what we’re talking about in the Conference is that we’re going to get to the place where we are basically going to celebrate being able to give birth to our self and to whatever new vision is going to come out of this Conference Gathering -- so that we can together welcome each other and celebrate together. And I think that is the icing on the cake, you know, that is awaiting us.

Duncan Campbell: I think absolutely that’s the case, and myself as Master of Ceremonies and yourself as the person who will be leading us in the concluding celebratory ritual are both involved in helping the entire gathering to activate, all of us together, a kind of transformational space -- including not only the presenters who will be articulating on the stage, but all of the participants with their deep listening who are evoking the insights that are articulated coming out of the group energy field. And this opportunity for expression will also be something we can all look forward to at the extended lunch time on Saturday, when there’s going to be a large and deliberate space for people in very small groups to share stories, deep stories, with each other and evoke and integrate their experience. This is very essential to a true initiation -- that is not just a one way transmission of information, but is actually a transformative initiation -- where together we can evoke an experience that is both intimate and personal in our sense of shift, as well as a kind of collective amplification that allows all of us to celebrate, as Barack Obama suggested in his Inaugural Address, “our common humanity”. And that experience has a great carry over effect into our everyday lives and relationships.

Sobonfu Some’: Now how amazing is that, because, you know, a lot of people go into conferences and never really get to put in their voice; and, you know, in my Dagara people’s African tradition, when you go anywhere we are always trying to get our voice in, you know, to express yourself with and to others, because it’s like we are all making this huge cauldron and the stories that we bring, everything we share of our self, is part of what is going to make whatever we’re cooking really delicious. And for people to be able to have this opportunity as a gift, not only to themselves but a gift to the community, I really believe is amazing.

Duncan Campbell: That’s beautifully put. I love the image that you give here of together we’re collectively creating a crucible or a great cauldron, not only a crucible for the water of life, but a great cauldron in which to cook and use the fire of life to transform our experience, because these are transformative elements, all of the elements are: Eaarth is nurturing, Wind is empowering, a Fire literally is transforming, and Water is liquid and fluid and moves between the solid state of ice to the evaporated state of the clouds. And so every one of the elements will be involved here. We will be having time outdoors; we will be celebrating the natural world in a beautiful natural environment in Fort Collins, Colorado. And I think that these “pilgrimage dialogues” are pointing to that transformation as they are evolving here. In my first dialogue, with Robert Sitler, he emphasized the joy and the wisdom that is accessible in everyday life that he himself has experienced in the Mayan culture and which he shares so beautifully. Next has been John Major Jenkins, whose great research into the galactic alignment and embedding it and situating it in connection to the primordial tradition, sometimes called the perennial philosophy, has shown how we can bring all of this that 2012 is pointing to into the Now; that this “2012 phenomenon” is not an event that we’re waiting for, that we’re going to have to be acted upon at some time in the future, but it is an atmosphere of opportunity that is present right here, right now…And that energy field is present right now in helping germinate and evoke from you and I what we’re saying and inviting people to; so that in a sense you and I are acting here as inviters and embodiments of the kind of dialogue and transformation that we can anticipate will be happening among us all and amplified at that particular moment on May 29 and May 30 of the Gathering. But that’s only a moment in a continuum of many moments before and after, that we’re all already uncovering and witnessing being unveiled in people all over the world.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and, you know, as you speak and you share that it makes me think about today being this energy that renews itself time and again, which gets stronger every time, as the energy is being shared every time. So as people today listen to this dialogue, and share it with other people, it is renewed and it gets stronger and so on. That’s the image that came to me.

Duncan Campbell: Well, I have to say, Sobonfu, it’s been just a wonderful opportunity here for myself and our other deep listeners, and yourself for that matter, for us to have this chance and opportunity to engage in this dialogue together, and I have always so appreciated the great joy and cheerfulness that you embody and bring to any time that I’ve ever had the pleasure and privilege to encounter you. And so I’m very much looking forward to this conference, even as I’m deeply appreciating the present moment here, because the gift I think of this very dialogue is not only to inspire that more such moments can happen between us, but in one’s own life everyday, today for instance, and the moments that follow.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and I’m very grateful for you, for the gift of yourself to the world really and for having such a strong and powerful vision that you can not only share with the world, but that you can get other people be a part of the dance of that vision as well. And I think that is, that is a gift that not everybody has, and I thank you for holding that for all of us.

Duncan Campbell: Well thank you very much Sobonfu, and I want to thank our co-producers Larraine Tennison and John Major Jenkins and everyone involved with this project, all the presenters that are part of this pilgrimage series that is now leading us, as it were, like milestones toward the Conference Gathering on May 29 and 30. If people are wanting further information, they can go to www.unveiling2012.org. And we really extend an extraordinarily warm and intimate invitation for your continued participation. If you cannot physically put yourself in that Fort Collins environment, you’re very much invited to participate through your deep listening to not only these dialogues, but to the continuation of Living Dialogues after that, and also to honor the fact that really it is true -- and we’re experiencing it with great gratitude for our listenership and their Website Contact emails from around the world -- that as the world becomes smaller, “yes, we can” and do experience in greater depth and greater joy our own common humanity.

We invite you and look forward to seeing you at the conference on May 29 and 30, 2009 in the natural beauty of Fort Collins, Colorado, entitled “2012 NOW - Empowering the Transformation”. For further information and registration you can go to www.unveiling2012.org.

“We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth…. and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it…why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration…" -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

And as we say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

This is the third in a seven-part series of “Pilgrimage Dialogues” forming part of and leading up to a Conference Gathering in Fort Collins, Colorado on May 29-30, 2009, entitled “2012 NOW – Empowering the Transformation”, for which I am serving as the Master of Ceremonies and opening presenter. Past Living Dialogues in this series have included dialogues with myself and Robert Sitler and with John Major Jenkins. Future Living Dialogues in the series will include other Conference presenters Stansilav Grof, Richard Tarnas, and Christine Page.

Details and registration information available at www.unveiling2012.org.

Duncan Campbell: 2012 Now: Empowering The Transformation, a uniquely innovative, interactive and affordable gathering in this time of global uncertainty, will take place Friday night and all day Saturday May 29 and 30 at the Lincoln Center for Performing Arts in Fort Collins, Colorado. Beyond just information, to practical tools for change and direct experience of participating in the ongoing transformation of our times. Now is the time and the opportunity to synchronize consciousness with the evolutionary pulse of the cosmos. Join world-renowned speakers in as we explore, co-create, and experience together the tranformative dynamics necessary for a successful transit from now through the year 2012 and beyond. More information available on the Conference website, www.unveiling2012.org. See you there.

The meaning of the Greek word “Apocalypse” is “lifting the veil” or “revelation”. Here are excerpts from this set of revelatory “shared stories” – contemporary 21st century versions of the medieval Canterbury Tales -- on this pilgrimage Road to 2012 NOW.

Sobonfu Some’: Well I really believe that initiation is a necessity, you know, much like, you know, 2012 is saying “here is a big initiation”. It, initiation, is a necessity because we have to initiate in order to be able to move forward, to be able to tap into our essence, into our gift and so on. And, you know, in my African tradition the first initiation that we all go through is that of being born, because we are coming from being full of spirit to taking on this human tool that we call the body. And, you know, also, we’ll go through many, many initiations. And I think what we’re talking about in the Conference is that we’re going to get to the place where we are basically going to celebrate being able to give birth to our self and to whatever new vision is going to come out of this Conference Gathering -- so that we can together welcome each other and celebrate together. And I think that is the icing on the cake, you know, that is awaiting us.

Duncan Campbell: I think absolutely that’s the case, and myself as Master of Ceremonies and yourself as the person who will be leading us in the concluding celebratory ritual are both involved in helping the entire gathering to activate, all of us together, a kind of transformational space -- including not only the presenters who will be articulating on the stage, but all of the participants with their deep listening who are evoking the insights that are articulated coming out of the group energy field. And this opportunity for expression will also be something we can all look forward to at the extended lunch time on Saturday, when there’s going to be a large and deliberate space for people in very small groups to share stories, deep stories, with each other and evoke and integrate their experience. This is very essential to a true initiation -- that is not just a one way transmission of information, but is actually a transformative initiation -- where together we can evoke an experience that is both intimate and personal in our sense of shift, as well as a kind of collective amplification that allows all of us to celebrate, as Barack Obama suggested in his Inaugural Address, “our common humanity”. And that experience has a great carry over effect into our everyday lives and relationships.

Sobonfu Some’: Now how amazing is that, because, you know, a lot of people go into conferences and never really get to put in their voice; and, you know, in my Dagara people’s African tradition, when you go anywhere we are always trying to get our voice in, you know, to express yourself with and to others, because it’s like we are all making this huge cauldron and the stories that we bring, everything we share of our self, is part of what is going to make whatever we’re cooking really delicious. And for people to be able to have this opportunity as a gift, not only to themselves but a gift to the community, I really believe is amazing.

Duncan Campbell: That’s beautifully put. I love the image that you give here of together we’re collectively creating a crucible or a great cauldron, not only a crucible for the water of life, but a great cauldron in which to cook and use the fire of life to transform our experience, because these are transformative elements, all of the elements are: Eaarth is nurturing, Wind is empowering, a Fire literally is transforming, and Water is liquid and fluid and moves between the solid state of ice to the evaporated state of the clouds. And so every one of the elements will be involved here. We will be having time outdoors; we will be celebrating the natural world in a beautiful natural environment in Fort Collins, Colorado. And I think that these “pilgrimage dialogues” are pointing to that transformation as they are evolving here. In my first dialogue, with Robert Sitler, he emphasized the joy and the wisdom that is accessible in everyday life that he himself has experienced in the Mayan culture and which he shares so beautifully. Next has been John Major Jenkins, whose great research into the galactic alignment and embedding it and situating it in connection to the primordial tradition, sometimes called the perennial philosophy, has shown how we can bring all of this that 2012 is pointing to into the Now; that this “2012 phenomenon” is not an event that we’re waiting for, that we’re going to have to be acted upon at some time in the future, but it is an atmosphere of opportunity that is present right here, right now…And that energy field is present right now in helping germinate and evoke from you and I what we’re saying and inviting people to; so that in a sense you and I are acting here as inviters and embodiments of the kind of dialogue and transformation that we can anticipate will be happening among us all and amplified at that particular moment on May 29 and May 30 of the Gathering. But that’s only a moment in a continuum of many moments before and after, that we’re all already uncovering and witnessing being unveiled in people all over the world.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and, you know, as you speak and you share that it makes me think about today being this energy that renews itself time and again, which gets stronger every time, as the energy is being shared every time. So as people today listen to this dialogue, and share it with other people, it is renewed and it gets stronger and so on. That’s the image that came to me.

Duncan Campbell: Well, I have to say, Sobonfu, it’s been just a wonderful opportunity here for myself and our other deep listeners, and yourself for that matter, for us to have this chance and opportunity to engage in this dialogue together, and I have always so appreciated the great joy and cheerfulness that you embody and bring to any time that I’ve ever had the pleasure and privilege to encounter you. And so I’m very much looking forward to this conference, even as I’m deeply appreciating the present moment here, because the gift I think of this very dialogue is not only to inspire that more such moments can happen between us, but in one’s own life everyday, today for instance, and the moments that follow.

Sobonfu Some’: Yes, and I’m very grateful for you, for the gift of yourself to the world really and for having such a strong and powerful vision that you can not only share with the world, but that you can get other people be a part of the dance of that vision as well. And I think that is, that is a gift that not everybody has, and I thank you for holding that for all of us.

Duncan Campbell: Well thank you very much Sobonfu, and I want to thank our co-producers Larraine Tennison and John Major Jenkins and everyone involved with this project, all the presenters that are part of this pilgrimage series that is now leading us, as it were, like milestones toward the Conference Gathering on May 29 and 30. If people are wanting further information, they can go to www.unveiling2012.org. And we really extend an extraordinarily warm and intimate invitation for your continued participation. If you cannot physically put yourself in that Fort Collins environment, you’re very much invited to participate through your deep listening to not only these dialogues, but to the continuation of Living Dialogues after that, and also to honor the fact that really it is true -- and we’re experiencing it with great gratitude for our listenership and their Website Contact emails from around the world -- that as the world becomes smaller, “yes, we can” and do experience in greater depth and greater joy our own common humanity.

We invite you and look forward to seeing you at the conference on May 29 and 30, 2009 in the natural beauty of Fort Collins, Colorado, entitled “2012 NOW - Empowering the Transformation”. For further information and registration you can go to www.unveiling2012.org.

“We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth…. and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it…why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration…" -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

And as we say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

This is the second in a seven-part series of “Pilgrimage Dialogues” forming part of and leading up to a Conference Gathering in Fort Collins, Colorado on May 29-30, 2009, entitled “2012 NOW – Empowering the Transformation”, for which I am serving as the Master of Ceremonies and opening presenter. Future Living Dialogues in this series will include other Conference presenters Sobonfu Some’, Stansilav Grof, Richard Tarnas, and Christine Page.

Details and registration information available at www.unveiling2012.org.

Duncan Campbell: 2012 Now: Empowering The Transformation, a uniquely innovative, interactive and affordable gathering in this time of global uncertainty, will take place Friday night and all day Saturday May 29 and 30 at the Lincoln Center for Performing Arts in Fort Collins, Colorado. Beyond just information, to practical tools for change and direct experience of participating in the ongoing transformation of our times. Now is the time and the opportunity to synchronize consciousness with the evolutionary pulse of the cosmos. Join world-renowned speakers in as we explore, co-create, and experience together the tranformative dynamics necessary for a successful transit from now through the year 2012 and beyond. More information available on the website, www.unveiling2012.org. See you there.

The meaning of the Greek word “Apocalypse” is “lifting the veil” or “revelation”. Here are excerpts from this set of revelatory “shared stories” – contemporary 21st century versions of the medieval Canterbury Tales -- on this pilgrimage Road to 2012 NOW:

John Major Jenkins: Well in a word I guess I’d say it’s been transformational, which I suppose is to be expected when you’re engaged with this kind of material. Transformation is not an easy thing necessarily, there’s been lots of challenges. But I think that if you’re not constantly challenging yourself, then you’re going to all back into the muck, as you said. So one thing that I want to point out that I, I think my continuing role as a 2012-ologist is to offer clarity and discernment. One thing that constantly is getting my attention is the, the amount of disinformation and misconception that is thrown at this 2012 topic, and I think that it’s important for people to understand that anything that’s coming out has to be treated with a skeptical eye, you might say, and one has to have an eye towards sensing whether it’s reinforcing ego or it’s reinforcing a large perspective, a selfless perspective. And since you’ve brought up the Barack Obama election, I thought that it’d be appropriate to mention that, without wanting to sound trite, that the, the election process between Obama and McCain was archetypal, absolutely. I mean it was in a sense the fulfillment of the Maya prophecy because these two people represented perfectly ego consciousness, self-interest, the old Vanguard that must pass and be transformed, moved into the next year, and then Obama who represented the more selfless, taking the large unity position. So this is actually what the Maya creation mythology in its own archetypal content was, illustrates for what is to happen, you might say, at the end of the cycle. So it’s really fascinating then to consider how we’re living in an era in which these things are taking place, and I’m just grateful to be here.

Duncan Campbell: I think that’s a beautiful way to put it. When one can say that with real heartfelt sincerity and authenticity, “I’m just grateful to be here”, that’s a tremendous statement, and it’s a statement that indigenous peoples have made from time in memorial, that I wake up and I see beauty before me, beauty behind me, beauty all around me. Today is a good day to die, and that really means today is a good day to live, because the death and rebirth process is happening at every moment, and so today is a good day for me to let go of preconceptions, today is a good day for me to be grateful for that which is before me, today is a good day for me to be grateful for how I can serve others. And you’ve said it beautifully John, that the litmus test for any coming together, any gathering, whether we do it one on one as we’re doing here or around the dinner table or in a meeting or in an election or in a conference like the gathering coming up in Fort Collins, Colorado May 29 and 30, is does the energy exchange that happens there promote a deeper heartfelt appreciation than gratitude, or does it constrict us into some kind of fear-based or maybe even arrogant separation from others or from the rest of the planet? And that I think really is the free-will aspect that you’re talking about, that we can choose a perspective, choose our higher perspective at every moment in our own lives and to come together with that perspective is what we intend to create as a fertile womb so that all the seeds that can be brought together in this conference can bloom. So for all of your lifelong work John, and it’s been such a great pleasure to do these dialogues over the years and watch the evolution of your work, of my work, of our fellows over the last decade, its been a real deep pleasure.

John Major Jenkins: Well thank you Duncan. Thank you for everything that you’re doing. I’ve found our conversations over the years to be scintillating and stimulating, and you’re a person who I immediately thought of to bring on board as our speaker and master of ceremonies, because you have a special way of contextualizing and framing and facilitating a process, it’s a process oriented thing. And our Conference is really about an invitation for people to participate in a transformation. So, there are no guarantees of course. This is something that everybody brings their own energy to it. And it’s our hope that we can model and illustrate, what you might call an “awakening into”. I think, you know, evolutionary terminology I think works well enough for, you know, certain things, but I really like the term ‘awakening’. ‘Awakening’…

Duncan Campbell: I do too.

John Major Jenkins: The awakening of this larger perspective that’s already there. It’s kind of like the unveiling thing. I don’t know how much we’re really trying to create or generate or build something new, I think we’re trying to unveil or awaken something that’s always been there, but that we’ve forgot. And that’s kind of a key thing, and so coming together and discovering that together with other people can just be a glimpse of a higher potential that we all have.

Duncan Campbell: Beautifully put, and I think that’s exactly the etymology of the word ‘enthusiasm’, it means literally to be engodded, but not God as some separate entity, but that sense of the divinity that’s innate within each of us, and when we tap into that we do feel a clarity, we feel a generosity of spirit and we feel an energy that we can bring to our own daily activities, to our families, to our communities, to our participation in the national and international task ahead of us now, to actually take seriously the fact that certain old economic and political forms, and forms of transportation and uses of energy from the fossil fuel economy, they need to end, they have to end because they are not sustainable, and each one of us will be encountering that falling apart in whatever way we do. It could mean loss of income, it could mean loss of many things in our lives, but if we keep our eyes on this particular perspective we’ll have the inner trust and energy and enthusiasm to carry this larger vision forward, so in no way is this 2012 conference meant to be an escapism from everything that’s happening. Quite the contrary. It’s meant to be perhaps one of the most practical things we can do to contribute to and serve our larger communal and planetary societies.

John Major Jenkins: I think Colorado is really ahead of the curve when it comes to innovative community-based experiments in alternate fuel and energy and community-based farming. I’m so glad this is happening here in Colorado, my home state, and bringing people together along the Front Range in springtime, it’s going to be a beautiful time. And, you know, I think that there’s a real chance for lasting connections being built between participants, as we all try to take responsibility for transforming the world into a sustainable place.

Duncan Campbell: Well the time has come where we must close this particular dialogue, and I’ll have to say in once again honoring you and your stories John, that in doing so we’re honoring the stories of all those that are listening to this, and this great invitation is going out here to participate in this pilgrimage, this moving toward a particular gathering. So that next week we’ll be talking with Sobonfu Some’. And as we’re sharing these stories with all the presenters in advance, it’s acknowledging that whatever’s being called forth, once again is being called forth from the people who will be participating in the gathering, and all those that are listening to these dialogues. And so I see it in a sense as a contribution also from the energy field of Colorado. It’s a way that we can share what we experience with people who will be coming -- we know from the ticket sales --literally from all over the world…

John Major Jenkins: Yes.

Duncan Campbell: They will each be coming with their stories to contribute – and time scheduled at the Conference Gathering to share them -- and so I’m very much looking forward, and at the same time staying right here in the present moment., So that’s our invitation to each of you. I’m Duncan Campbell, your host. I’ve been really delighted to have John Major Jenkins with me in this dialogue, and we both extend to you a very warm invitation to join us and all of the other participants at “2012 Now - Empowering The Transformation”, May 29 and 30 in Fort Collins, Colorado. For more information, to register you can go to www.unveiling2012.org. Be with us again next time as we continue on Living Dialogues.

We invite you and look forward to seeing you at the conference on May 29 and 30, 2009 in the natural beauty of Fort Collins, Colorado, entitled “2012 NOW - Empowering the Transformation”. For further information and registration you can go to www.unveiling2012.org.

“We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth…. and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it…why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration…" -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

And as we say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

This is the first in a seven-part series of dialogues forming part of and leading up to a Conference Gathering in Fort Collins, Colorado on May 29-30, 2009, entitled “2012 NOW – Empowering the Transformation”, for which I am serving as the Master of Ceremonies and opening presenter. Future Living Dialogues in this series will include other Conference presenters John Major Jenkins, Sobonfu Some, William Henry, Stansilav Grof, Christine Page, and Richard Tarnas.

Details and registration information available at www.unveiling2012.org.

The meaning of the Greek word “Apocalypse” is “lifting the veil” or “revelation”. Here are excerpts from the first “shared stories” on this pilgrimage Road to 2012 NOW.

Robert Sitler: “I’m Robert Sitler and in the conversation that I just shared with Duncan, I really sense the listeners who will be participating potentially in this conference and who will be listening to the dialogues that you’ll be hearing in the coming weeks, and I feel that they have been charged through Duncan’s work with the potential to bring about inner transformation and I look forward to participating in the process with you.”

Duncan Campbell: We really have an auspicious moment here, Robert, because you and I are inaugurating in this dialogue, the first of the series of seven dialogues that will be consciously leading up to an event on May 29 and 30 in Fort Collins, Colorado, a gathering entitled “2012 Now, Empowering the Transformation.” And so as we go forward, we have really consciously understood that these series of seven dialogues between myself, who will also be serving as the opening presenter and Master of Ceremonies, and yourself is the inauguration in a sense of a kind of pilgrimage -- that these seven dialogues are milestones as we are preparing ourselves and our consciousness to gradually focus in on this event at the end of May, which will be not just simply a transmission of information from various sources but an integral initiation and experiential transformation very much in the Initiatic Tradition of the Mayan people themselves and of all cultures throughout history in their embodiment of the Perennial Philosophy, sometimes also called the Primordial Tradition.

This is part of our changing world. And as the world changes so to -- we must change. So there is that immediacy of transformation happening and the growing sense of a planetary culture that is not limited by either time -- in terms of bringing indigenous and modern cultures together and mutual gifting -- and it’s not limited in terms of space. We have a common humanity that we’re feeling. We’re seeing and feeling the possibility of transcending old tribalisms, old conflicts, old religious warfare, and at the same time beautifully fully appreciating our own person, our own family, our own geographical location and that is I think the true “unveiling” (or apocalypse) --

Robert Sitler: Um-hmm.

Duncan Campbell: --- that we are looking forward to amplifying together as we come together at the end of May. And I want to thank you Robert for all of your lifelong work, your thirty years of regular visits to the Maya world, your teaching, your articles and your upcoming manuscript in which you so brilliantly share your experience of grounding the entire fascination of the modern world with 2012 in the depth and wonder and mystery of daily life as experienced by the Maya people over the generations. You are another wonderful bridge person connecting our indigenous and modern minds and I very much look forward to continuing to travel this path, this Road, together as we all move forward in this great evolutionary moment that we’re sharing as a species on the planet.

Robert Sitler: It’s exciting.

Duncan Campbell: Well, Robert, it is very exciting and it’s been just great having this conversation with you.

Robert Sitler: Likewise it’s a pleasure for me, you know, a real treat for me to speak to the listeners of Living Dialogues and I look forward first of all to meeting many of you but also to this conference, which I think has the possibility of producing genuine change in our heart and truly preparing us for a future in which we all feel more integrated with Mother Earth.

Duncan Campbell: Well, at this point, we’re about to take the next step on our journey together. This week we’ve talked with Robert Sitler, one of the presenters at our conference coming up on May 29 and 30, whose deep experience and knowledge of the Mayan culture will be one of the gifts he will be sharing with us. And next week, I’ll be dialoguing with John Major Jenkins, who will share his decades of research into the Mayan culture and how it fits into the larger perennial wisdom, sometimes called the Primordial Tradition.

And we invite you and look forward to seeing you at the conference on May 29 and 30, 2009 in the natural beauty of Fort Collins, Colorado, entitled “2012 NOW - Empowering the Transformation”. For further information and registration you can go to www.unveiling2012.org.

“We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth…. and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it…why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration…" -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

And as we say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

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Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

“I am Michael Beckwith, and it’s been my joy to be a part of Living Dialogues with my brother Duncan. Beautiful, and I appreciate the format and I appreciate your consciousness. I found it to not only be inspiring, but a continued regeneration of the soul. It is what’s happening now.” – Michael Beckwith, founder of the Agape International Spiritual Center and author of Spiritual Liberation: Fulfilling Your Soul’s Potential (with an Afterword by Robert Thurman – see Dialogue 59).

From the beginning of Living Dialogues I have observed that we are all called to awaken to the creative potential and celebratory power of our true nature. We are meant to generate evolutionary change so as to keep pace with our continuously evolving universe. Another way I have expressed this is that our conscious, alive universe is permeated throughout with a self-revealing impulse that wants to express itself through us. This applies in all realms of inner and outer life, in our heartfelt dialogues within ourself and with the many realms, political, cultural, family, economic, and so on within which we live.

In encountering each other, Michael Beckwith and I experienced ourselves from the beginning as brothers, whose similar views of life, arrived at independently, were those of “soul friends” (anam caras in John O’Donohue’s phrase – see Dialogues 87 and 88 and definition at the end of this description*).

In the opening of our dialogue, I welcomed Michael as a powerful force for change, who combines – as we do in Living Dialogues -- spiritual, educational, scientific, governmental, economic, social, and political elements. He responded: “Duncan it is my joy to be with you to weigh in one the issues of the day, and to just speak from the heart with you”, and I continued in saying: “Beautiful, because that’s actually what we do here on Living Dialogues is speak from the heart, we weigh in on issues of the day, and we also talk about our deep consciousness and the importance of dialogue, both inner and outer”.

And that is exactly what we did, allowing the dialogue to flow freely from the evocation of our own open, deep listening and that of yourselves. Whatever your background, you will find much of interest here on many topics, and enjoy the flow.

*The Meaning of Anam Cara: Anam Cara refers to the Celtic spiritual belief of souls connecting and bonding. In Celtic spiritual tradition, it is believed that the soul radiates all about the physical body, what some refer to as an aura. When you connect with another person and become completely open and trusting with that individual, your two souls begin to flow together. Should such a deep bond be formed, it is said you have found an anam cara or “soul friend”.

Your anam cara always accepts you as you truly are, holding you in beauty and light. In order to appreciate this relationship, you must first recognize your own inner light and beauty. This is not always easy to do. The Celts believed that forming an anam cara friendship would help you to awaken your awareness of your own nature and experience the joys of others.

According to John O’Donohue, Irish poet, philosopher, and spiritual writer and author of Anam Cara – A Book of Celtic Wisdom: “We are joined in an ancient and eternal union with humanity that cuts across all barriers of time, convention, philosophy and definition. When you are blessed with an anam cara, the Irish believe, you have arrived at that most sacred place: home.”

We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth…. and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it…This is the source of our confidence – the knowledge that God calls on us to shape an uncertain destiny. This is the meaning of our liberty and our creed – why men and women and children of every race and every faith can join in celebration…" -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

And as we say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

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See Description and introduction for Episode 89 (Part 1 of this 2-part Dialogue).

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Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

Brant Secunda: “Hi! I’m Brant Secunda, and I’m really happy to be here with Living Dialogues. I think that it’s so valuable for us to come together in dialogue and to speak together and to communicate about these things, which are so important. We think that the book Fit Soul, Fit Body helps to bring alive these valuable ideas that are important for us all. By being here with Living Dialogues I feel it’s really helpful, also, for myself. So thank you.”

Mark Allen: “I’m Mark Allen, co-author of Fit Soul, Fit Body with Brant Secunda. Living Dialogues with Duncan is a true, beautiful experience to be with somebody who talks from the heart and gets people to talk from their heart as well. Through that we’re all touched deep in the soul. Not just in our minds, but deep in our soul, deep in our bodies. It touches the genetics of who we are as human beings, as two-leggeds on this planet. This is a rare opportunity to have a dialogue with another human being on that level.”

In the description of my prior dialogue with Stanislav Grof in Episodes 83-84, which I entitled: “Barack Obama and Our 21st Century Collective Heroes’ Journey”, I observed:

“This new template [the “third consciousness” arising from the Sacred Marriage of our primal indigenous and adolescent modern mind heritages] contains all the elements of the traditional Hero's Journey archetype across cultures so well described by Joseph Campbell in mid-20th century in his classic "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" -- but goes further in uniting the best of the indigenous rites of passage and the modern mind's conceptual breakthroughs into a new collaborative midwifing I sometimes describe as “our 21st century Collective Heroes' Journey”. While remaining responsible and accountable to show up on our own horse, we effectively “ride into the dark part of the forest” together on our now larger Grail quest.”

In Dialogues 85 and 86 with Lakota historian Joseph M. Marshall III on the Contemporary Relevance of Leadership Lessons from the Hero’s Journey of Crazy Horse, we revealed the how the modern “conquering” Euroamerican culture in North America has ignored the traits of integrity, accountability, generosity, and attention to the welfare of the collective cultivated in traditional tribal, village life, as quaintly irrelevant in this Second Gilded Age to the culture of de facto unregulated corporate and personal greed (warned about by Abraham Lincoln prior to the First Gilded Age at the end of the nineteenth century ), commercialization, militarization, and endemic political lying and self-seeking that have now come – until just these past few months – to be accepted as necessary evils characterizing our modern anonymous urban industrial culture.

The time is now upon us to share the best of our indigenous and modern mind gifts, teaching and learning from the best of both traditions and from each other all over the planet. The latest excellent example of this Sacred Marriage’s ability to bear healthy fruit and happy mind-body-soul union is the recently published best-seller Fit Soul, Fit Body.

In this 2-part Dialogue (Episodes 89 and 90) American-born Huichol shaman and healer, Brant Secunda, and his twenty-year friend, student, and collaborator, American Mark Allen – six-time Ironman Triathlon champion – join with me in a trialogue journey of shared exploration, with intimate stories from our own experiences illustrating the profound relevance and potential applicability in our modern lives of ancient, timeless daily honorings of the naturally alive universe in which we all live. These daily honorings and celebrations, often punctuated with the transformative power of good-hearted teasing laughter, still occur in the human-nature landscape of intact indigenous cultures such as that of the Huichol Indians in the High Sierra Madre in Mexico. It was there that as a young man Brant Secunda encountered his teacher the 100 year old Don Jose.

It was the image of these two shamans, Don Jose and his adopted grandson Brant Secunda, seen in a magazine, that came into the mind of Mark Allen at a critical point near the final end game of the 1989 Ironman Triathlon race in Hawaii – still regarded by many as the greatest Ironman race of all time – resulting in an unprecedented surge which enabled Mark, after six previous losses, to defeat the reigning multi-year champion and win the first of what would become his epic six straight victories in the annual Ironman competition.

Mark had always been intimidated by the sheer power of the surrounding volcanic landscape in Hawaii, but from that first victory forward he resolved to work with Brant and has done so in beautiful collaboration since then, learning the ways and power and ability to dialogue with our fully alive conscious universe which is our home. And to be joyfully and comfortably at home in that home. So when at age 37, the oldest person to attempt to win a 6th straight Ironman Triathlon, Mark felt near the end that he had given his all and needed more energy to continue and keep up, he asked the land around him he had come to relate to as a brother for help, and once again was able to surge seemingly miraculously to the front and finished first ahead of a much younger and able competitor.

In our “trialogue”, I observed that while other runners trained in terms of measured “times” and “splits”, Mark had learned to enter the timeless realm of appreciative soul and celebrating body, joyful together in their unity and sense of well-being even before the race ever began, as he described his later experiences. This is the relaxed sense of our common humanity that we can all share even as we race and compete, free of attachment to the outcome.

The many life lessons that Brant and Mark have learned apart and then together over the last decades have been organized and communicated in this, their first book together, in a very accessible and informed manner. In my view, this book heralds a paradigm shift in the genre of self-help and self-empowerment teachings and books, by bringing together in story, in exercises, in instructions (including diet), the fruits of this archetypal collaboration of our time – that we are called to awaken to the creative potential of both our indigenous heritage and DNA and our modern mind, in the celebratory power of their shared union, so as to generate evolutionary change to keep pace with our continuously evolving universe.

"We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth….and as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it." -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

And as I often say on Living Dialogues:

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

See Description and introduction for Episode 87 (Part 1 of this 2-Part Dialogue)

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Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

“My fears were always internal: the old fears of not belonging.” – Barack Obama reflecting in the midst of his life’s journey, from a passage in his 1995 autobiography “Dreams From My Father”

"As high over the mountains the eagle spreads its wings, may your perspective be larger than the view from the foothills. When the way is flat and dull in times of gray endurance, may your imagination continue to evoke horizons." – John O’Donohue’s blessing “For One Who Holds Power” from his collection “To Bless the Space Between Us” – offered by Maryland’s Governor Martin O’Malley on January 17, 2009 to Barack Obama when he stopped in Baltimore to greet a crowd of well-wishers as he made his way to Washington, D.C. for his inauguration.

__________________

John O'Donohue, the Irish poet, philosopher and spiritual writer, passed away in his sleep at the age of 52 on the cusp of January 3-4, 2008 (following the close of the historic Iowa caucuses in the U.S. presidential primary). John was one of the great voices of our time, in many ways. His spirit and energy, his easy laughter, endure, touching and reminding me of Rumi’s phrase “we all know the taste of pure water.” On this the 10th anniversary of our dialogues, the timeless relevance of what was evoked in and between us and the virtual deep listeners can now be heard in an immediate reference and amplitude greater than at the time of the recording.

At the time John and I did these dialogues together in March 1999, there were a number of crises already brewing in the global petri dish of our end of the millennium consumerist market and political culture, characterized by socially widely-accepted greed, lying, manipulation, and reliance on force in the public sphere, and thus inevitably in the private sphere. This was a time that literally prepared the ground for the dying embers of the last millennium to flare into a perfect storm of armed conflict and economic destruction in the next ten years, which has in turn prepared the way for the coming into being of a possible regeneration beginning now as we enter a new political and market era in 2009.

In this two-part dialogue, a prophetic Voice is heard called forth in many areas, which are now being seen by many as they were seen by few at the time. As John said to the audience in the evening on that day in 1999 in his rich Irish brogue: “Ah, this afternoon, Duncan and I had the faather and mother of all conversations!”

Listening to it again now after 10 years, this exclamation – at once light-hearted and serious, as John could be so well – has also proven uncannily prophetic, as can be seen even from the following brief collage of excerpts from our dialogues:

__________________

Duncan Campbell: Reading your most recent book, “Eternal Echoes”, John, I tell you was like balm for the soul….It is one of the most beautiful poetic prose books I’ve ever read. I felt a sense of belonging and longing to renew our communication from when we first met two years ago, in anticipation of this dialogue, and I think that kind of appreciation of the mystery illuminated by inner and outer dialogue really is at the heart of your book….In our “post modern era” [at the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century, the end of the adolescent “modern” mind era, what some have called an “era between eras before a Second Renaissance”] many of us find ourselves often with this deep feeling of alienation of not belonging, of somehow not being embraced or understood by the culture around us, not finding a shelter that can take us in -- whether it be a relationship or a book by Meister Eckhart or Saint John of the Cross -- a place where we can be understood and deeply seen by another. And what we are looking for is a sense of dialogue, of responsive relationship, to feel not a lonely isolated echo coming back to us but something deeper from the mystery of our interconnectedness that confirms and reaffirms the reality of our experience. This desire for authentic dialogue is the same concept of echo that informs the title of your book.

John O’Donohue. That’s very well articulated and described. Post-modern culture is kind of arrested. And there are hugely vital conversations that are just not taking place, ands one of them is a conversation that should be taking place between the custodians of the Christian tradition, and those who are seeking nakedly and desperately [and being repulsed or refused by those traditions]. Another conversation that’s not taking place, and the absence of this event really frightens and troubles me deeply because I think it’s going to have amazingly dangerous repercussions for us if we don’t begin it -- and that’s a conversation that’s not taking place between Christianity and Islam. When we think of Islam, we think fundamentalists. When they think of us, they think Western capitalists. And, I think there could be an immensely exciting conversation there between the beautiful symbolic mysticism and depth of theology in Islamic tradition and culture and our own kind of culture….

Duncan Campbell: We can see the coldness and mutual isolation as we look across the cultural landscape. Not only in America. But also Ireland, in India, in South America, in Asia, around the world. Our global landscape is now become littered with the lifeless souls, the “dead souls” of Gogol’s great phrase, of people who have become products themselves, in the thrall of unregulated transnational corporations. Who have been turned into targets for producers. Targets of consumerism...

We had a man come through Boulder on book tour not long ago who specializes in childhood education, who told us about a young girl, nine years old, in the Mid-West, who answered his question at a previous stop on his tour: ‘What would you like to be when you grow up?’. And her answer was, ‘a consumer’.

John O’Donohue: My goodness!

Duncan Campbell: And so we really are in that mode. For instance, just this month (March 1999), Harvey Cox of the Harvard Divinity School wrote a brilliant article for the “Atlantic Monthly” about the Market, with a capital “M”, as “the new religion”. Many people don’t recognize it, but this is seen in the whole sense of the commodification of human experience, creating a certain kind of end of innocence that is taking the life from people rather than opening up deeper vistas….Instead of awakening people to the mystery, this “new religion of the Market” actually closes us down. It makes people more alienated. It makes them feel even more the hole in their soul, but not in an inspirational way. Instead of that yearning being directed to what you call “the sense of the great belonging”, the all embracing divinity that is ever present, it gets directed through the daily barrage of all-embracing advertising towards the market for Gap uniform-like clothing or to the local supermarket. It keeps our society functioning in a way, but it never ever gets satisfied, the desire for “more” continues, to try to fill that hole in the soul….

John O’Donohue: And, I also think there’s a crisis of politics that has now become synonymous with economics and the crudest forms of strategy and one up-manship and “pragmatism”, and.. (Duncan interjects: “vulgarism”.) “Vulgarism”, yes. And I think this leaves us, you know? Leaves us with a flat landscape -- with no mountains in sight, and a total distrust of ideals. Because those who are supposed to be presenting those ideals have either betrayed them through their “pragmatism” -- and I’m not even talking about morality here -- or else, those who present the ideas are right-wing fundamentalists who seem singularly unburdened by any sense of complexity or uncertainty. And who present a cold exclusivist view which is inherently callous and naively nostalgic and very dangerous and destructive.

And what’s missing is someone who can call us and invite us to ideals that call our deepest potential alive. Confront the negativity and the selfishness of our egoism. And somehow addresses what is gracious and elegant within us. So that we can inhabit the planet together in a way that is creative and good…I think everybody needs that and that happens naturally all the time, in friendship, and in partnerships between people that have not compromised and are still willing to grow. And that people actually come down below their own image into a depth with each other…where big thresholds can be crossed together.”

__________________

And so that “someone” who is missing turns out to be ourselves. To paraphrase Pogo: “We have met the redeemer and s/he is us.” We are the hero each of us of our own life’s adventure -- called to “engage our own kind of latent complexity and diversity, our own hidden divinity” -- and together we are the heroes of our “21st century collective heroes’ journey”. “We are the change we have been waiting for” – a phrase with many layers, much-maligned and mocked by those who do not hear that call.

These dialogues with John call us over the span of a decade to the very contemporary experience and challenges of today as described in my Introduction to previous Dialogues 83 and 84 reprised below:

After reading Barack Obama's two intimate autobiographies, “Dreams From My Father” and “The Audacity of Hope”, it came to me that our new President's personal life story telling his inner quest and outer challenges in his own voice so revealingly is itself a prototypical example of a new, 21st century, collaborative inner and outer initiation into a planetary consciousness beyond tribe and nation. This new larger self awareness goes further than the cultural comfort zone of our modern mind's historical individualistic, adolescent self-empowerment into the emerging mature co-creative and dialogue-based consciousness foreseen and portrayed in Living Dialogues since its inception.

The combative stance of the argument culture (see Program 72 with Deborah Tannen) gives way to a dialogue consciousness opening to expanded possibilities of harmony and enrichment in facing the accelerating diversity, uncertainty, and changes of our life experience.
This new template contains all the elements of the traditional Hero's Journey archetype across cultures so well described by Joseph Campbell in mid-20th century in his classic "Hero With a Thousand Faces" -- but goes further in uniting the best of the indigenous rites of passage and the modern mind's conceptual breakthroughs into a new collaborative midwifing I describe as our 21st century collective Heroes' Journey. While remaining responsible to show up on our own horse, we effectively “ride into the dark part of the forest” together on our larger Grail quest.

"We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth….and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it." -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

__________________

See also my prior Program 82 with Angeles Arrien where she quotes John O’Donohue’s poem Fluent in the context of the open and confidently courageous spirit of dialogue in these times of uncertainty and widespread anxiety and fear: “I would love to live / Like a river / Carried by the surprise / Of its own unfolding”.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™ - Duncan Campbell

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

See overall Description and introduction accompanying Episode 85 (Part 1 of this 2-Part Dialogue).

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Episode Description:

 “For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

Joseph Campbell on the contemporary relevance to each of us anywhere on the planet of knowing and appreciating Heroes’ Journeys from different cultures (all of which are part of our human heritage), from the Introduction to the third edition of his “The Hero With a Thousand Faces”:

“There are of course differences between the numerous mythologies and religions of mankind, but this is a book about similarities. And once these mythologies of human and collective development, focused on the hero, are understood, the differences will be found to be much less great than is popularly and politically supposed.

My hope is that a comparative elucidation of these mythological stories, some of which have endured for thousands of years, may contribute to those forces that are working in the present world for unification, not in the name of some Ecclesiastical or political empire, but in the sense of human mutual understanding. As we are told in the ancient Vedas from India: Truth is one; the sages speak of it by many names.”

“My name is Joseph Marshall, and I'm the author of “The Lakota Way”, and most recently “The Power of Four:  Leadership Lessons of Crazy Horse”, and I've enjoyed this session with Duncan Campbell because it's more than an interview show; it's an opportunity to share insights with someone else who has views of the world, views of our culture and to examine more deeply the common things that bind us together, no matter who we are, and share insights from the past as well as the present, I appreciate that.

And it all reminds me of Crazy Horse being in dialogue with his own community, with his own family, with his own people.  No matter whatever the opportunity, or the time was good or bad, he was always talking with people one on one, sharing his insights and listening to other people, to their insights.  Because he was a young man and he listened to his Elders and so he was having those dialogues all of his life, and all these dialogues that he had were really part of who he was as a leader. He was embodying the values that he had, certainly as a Lakota person. But he had the traits of humility and generosity as a leader as well.  And dialogues are important, and that was important to him and it's absolutely important to all of us who want to be or have an opinion about leaders and being a leader; having a dialogue is critically necessary to all of us.” – Joseph M. Marshall III

As I said in the description of my prior dialogue with Stanislav Grof in Episode 83-84, which I entitled:  Barack Obama and Our 21st Century Collective Heroes’ Journey:

“This new template contains all the elements of the traditional Hero's Journey archetype across cultures so well described by Joseph Campbell in mid-20th century in his classic "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" -- but goes further in uniting the best of the indigenous rites of passage and the modern mind's conceptual breakthroughs into a new collaborative midwifing I describe as our 21st century collective Heroes' Journey.  While remaining responsible to show up on our own horse, we effectively “ride into the dark part of the forest” together on our larger Grail quest.”

 "We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth….and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it." -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

In this 2-part Dialogue with Lakota historian, storyteller, craftsman, and educator Joseph M. Marshall III, we explore the universal heritage of the Hero’s Journey of Crazy Horse as an exemplary indigenous leader in the bridge period in mid-nineteenth century America when the Euroamerican culture battled the Native American culture.  Our contemporary culture contains both influences as part of the American heritage – but the modern culture has until recently told this history from the distorted point of view of the “victor”, ignoring the traits of integrity, accountability, and generosity cultivated in tribal, village life as quaintly irrelevant to the culture of transnational corporate greed, commercialization, militarization, and endemic political lying and self-seeking that have come – until just these past few months – to be accepted as givens of our contemporary anonymous urban industrial culture.

This dialogue is in some ways reminiscent of the early work of unification by writers such as Native American Ohiyesa (Charles Alexander Eastman) in “The Soul of an Indian”, and shows in this huge moment of 21st century transition how the very indigenous values that characterized Crazy Horse have relevance and can be reflected in our modern contemporary political transformations.

As Joseph Marshall says in his introductory comments above – consonant with Barack Obama’s Inaugural Address -- dialogue plays a central role in this new “third consciousness” of unification going beyond prior polarizations and cultural limitations.  And as I say continuously on Living Dialogues:

 “Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com.   Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com.  ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

 

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.  My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

See the Description and Introduction to program 83 (Part 1 of this two Part Program).

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

After reading Barack Obama's two intimate autobiographies, “Dreams From My Father” and “The Audacity of Hope”, it came to me that our new President's personal life story telling his inner quest and outer challenges in his own voice so revealingly is itself a prototypical example of a new, 21st century, collaborative inner and outer initiation into a planetary consciousness beyond tribe and nation. This new larger self awareness goes further than the cultural comfort zone of our modern mind's historical individualistic, adolescent self-empowerment into the emerging mature co-creative and dialogue-based consciousness foreseen and portrayed in Living Dialogues since its inception.

The combative stance of the argument culture (see Program 72 with Deborah Tannen) gives way to a dialogue consciousness opening to expanded possibilities of harmony and enrichment in facing the accelerating diversity, uncertainty, and changes of our life experience.

This new template contains all the elements of the traditional Hero's Journey archetype across cultures so well described by Joseph Campbell in mid-20th century in his classic "Hero of a Thousand Faces" -- but goes further in uniting the best of the indigenous rites of passage and the modern mind's conceptual breakthroughs into a new collaborative midwifing I describe as our 21st century collective Heroes' Journey. While remaining responsible to show up on our own horse, we effectively “ride into the dark part of the forest” together on our larger Grail quest.

From that perspective of what we can see reflected in Barack's life story, I invited my friend and consciousness work colleague Dr. Stanslav Grof (see also Program 30 on this site) to join me in a dialogic exploration of this idea, to contextualize and encourage you to read Barack's two autobiographies from this understanding as a contemporary exemplar of each of our journeys in this transformational time. "Together we can do anything." Yes We Can.

In Part 1 (Program 83) of this Dialogue, I largely set out this template and perspective, with examples from Joseph Campbell's work and the self-described experiences of our fellow sojourner and planetary citizen named Barack ("blessed one") Obama. Stan and I dialogue together, elaborating this context, from Stan’s experience of transpersonal psychology and mine that "Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation".

In Part 2 (Program 84) we go further in delving into the role of ritual and initiation, including vision quest in various forms of personal inner journey beyond our accustomed comfort zone and back into service to the larger community, local and global. We conclude by reprising the theme of my Dialogue 81 with Angeles Arrien on how we can go beyond our polarizing and depressing modern tendency to resist, pathologize, and dismiss our often emotionally intense experience of mystical belonging as something wrong and abnormal – to having “the audacity of hope”, able to recognize with gratitude such experience as having a profound, healing, reality and mythological resonance, connecting us to our ancestors and an alive and beneficent universe, in which we are all "blessed ones".

(See, as an illustration, the last few paragraphs at the end of Part Two of “Dreams From My Father”.)

"We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth….and we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself....For the world has changed, and we must change with it." -- Barack Obama Inaugural Address, January 20, 2009

See also my prior Program 30 with Stanislav Grof exploring in dialogue a selection of his own autobiographical experiences of transformations told in his book “When the Impossible Happens”.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

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Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In my prior Dialogue 81 with my friend Angeles Arrien, leading cross-cultural anthropologist of our time, we gave examples of our collective ability to ignite and energize liberating transformational shifts – co-creating mutually empowering and sustaining event stories and planetary understandings through dialogue and cultivating an open-minded appreciation, curiosity, respect, and practicality. These examples of transformational “miracles” that have occurred in our time included the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia, the freeing of Nelson Mandela and the end of apartheid in South Africa, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the elimination of other barriers that were assumed to be permanent polarizing aspects of our world.

In this dialogue with Joseph Ellis, the “Founders’ historian”, I add the example of the evolutionary shift in planetary consciousness that has occurred in many aspects with the campaign of Barack Obama, and his election and Inauguration as President of the United States – an event celebrated throughout the world. Joe and I describe the “electro-magnetic field” that manifested and resulted in the unprecedented and miraculous gathering of over 2 million people (myself among them) on the Mall in Washington, D.C., without a single arrest or act of violence.

We also put President Obama’s Inaugural Address in historical perspective, illuminating the links to ancestral heritage and present healings and inspiration, expressing the foundation for a realistic and practical hope for our future. In his own words: “What the cynics fail to understand it that the ground has shifted beneath them – that the stale political arguments that have consumed us for so long no longer apply….We cannot help but believe that the old hatreds will someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that, as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself.”

See also my prior Programs 38 and 39 on this site with Joseph Ellis -- in which our dialogue reveals new historical insights and perspective of Barack’s role during the campaign exemplifying the lineage of Washington, Lincoln, FDR, and JFK, in whose presidencies “out of the many we are one” was paramount.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

Among others, programs you will find of interest on these themes are my Dialogues on this site with Ted Sorensen, David Boren, David Mendell, and Angeles Arrien, among others [click on their name(s) in green on right hand column of the Living Dialogues Home Page on this site].

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In this intriguing 3-part dialogue with my deep friend Angeles Arrien, leading cross-cultural anthropologist of our time, we engage in one of the key 21st century projects – the co-creation of new planetary scale teaching, healing, and unifying myths.

We use the term “myth” here in the manner defined by Joseph Campbell -- as a great cultural story that reveals to people how to connect with their individual life purpose and be part of and in service to the larger community. Such stories created in all cultures have a healing function, enabling an individual to understand his or her unique life history and how it is part of an interconnected Larger Story.

C.G. Jung observed with reference to our human species that our capacity for psycho-mythologizing is much greater than our tendency to pscho-pathologize our experience (e.g., acculturated and media-induced perspectives of cynicism, carping criticism, apathy, depression, polarization, lack of a feeling of well-being and of hopefulness, etc.). And I and Angeles say that we are now in a great New Era of transformation, with a basis for deep hope and inspiration amidst the falling apart of the old era.

Central to our ability to co-create mutually empowering and sustaining deep planetary myths and understandings in our time is understanding the nature of dialogue and cultivating a perspective of paradox -- capable of holding the infinitely expanding diversity of creation in a wholistic, open consciousness of appreciation, curiosity, wonder, and practicality.

These are the themes of this dialogue as we conclude our 3-part series with a number of inspirational real life examples, including the Velvet Revolution, Desmond Tutu in South Africa, and other miracles that have occurred in our time, showing that the future is literally ours to choose.

See also my prior Dialogue 52 on this site with Angeles regarding the stages of a new synthesizing wisdom culture as well as elderhood for our time.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

Among others, programs you will find of interest on these themes are my Dialogues on this site with Joseph Chilton Pearce and Deborah Tannen specifically mentioned in this dialogue – as well as generally those with Duane Elgin, Paul Ray, Michael Meade, Coleman Barks, Sobonfu Some,Vine DeLoria Jr., Barbara Marx Hubbard, and Michael Dowd, among others [click on their name(s) in green on right hand column of the Living Dialogues Home Page on this site].

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In this intriguing 3-part dialogue with my deep friend Angeles Arrien, leading cross-cultural anthropologist of our time, we engage in one of the key 21st century projects – the co-creation of new planetary scale teaching, healing, and unifying myths.

We use the term “myth” here in the manner defined by Joseph Campbell -- as a great cultural story that reveals to people how to connect with their individual life purpose and be part of and in service to the larger community. Such stories in all cultures have a healing function, enabling an individual to understand his or her unique life history and how it is part of an interconnected Larger Story.

Specifically in this dialogue, Angeles tells the story about her calling to be a cross-cultural anthropologist, and I describe the revelation that led me to create the Living Dialogues programs, why “Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™, and how we are all called in our time to collaborate in creating new mutually empowering and planetary scale narratives.

In the global commons of 21st century communications, we are invited to weave a new set of myths without borders, as we are all doing together in these Living Dialogues, host, guest, and deep listening audience, and in each of our lives, through our various mutually inpsired dialogues and storytelling, co-creating the Great Myth of the future.

See also my prior Dialogue 52 on this site with Angeles regarding the stages of a new synthesizing elderhood and wisdom culture for our time.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

Among others, programs you will find of interest on these themes are my Dialogues on this site with Duane Elgin, Paul Ray, Michael Meade, Coleman Barks, Sobonfu Some, Vine DeLoria Jr., Barbara Marx Hubbard, and Michael Dowd, among others [click on their name(s) in green on right hand column of the Living Dialogues Home Page on this site].

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In this intriguing 3-part dialogue with my deep friend Angeles Arrien, the leading cross-cultural anthropologist of our time, we engage in one of the key 21st century projects – the co-creation of new planetary scale inspirational, normative, and unifying myths. Of the many compelling and informative perspectives emerging as this new world view takes shape is the report by Angeles of the results of an indigenous wisdom consensus prophecy for our time: the braiding of the sky wisdom and the earth wisdom together through the human heart.

See also my prior Dialogue 52 on this site with Angeles regarding the stages and role of an emerging new synthesizing elderhood and wisdom culture for our time.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

Among others, programs you will find of interest on these themes are my Dialogues on this site with Duane Elgin, Paul Ray, Michael Meade, Coleman Barks, Sobonfu Some, Vine DeLoria Jr., Barbara Marx Hubbard, and Michael Dowd, among others [click on their name(s) in green on right hand column of the Living Dialogues Home Page on this site].

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In this dialogue with Susan Jacoby, we dialogue (rather than argue) about the pressing need to reclaim a love of reading and genuine truth (rather than “truthiness”, in Stephen Colbert’s felicitous turn of phrase, which has been the coin of the realm of media and politicians of the last decades). The first step in the direction of a genuinely new empowerment of general citizen awareness and fulfillment must be in self-education and education of the youngest among us as they grow. That involves going beyond the “bubba” manipulation mentality that has sanctioned ignorance as a badge of pretend patriotism.

In view of the New Era of potential global political change many feel has dawned in the early winter of 2008, this dialogue is particularly interesting in its reference to the historical changes in the family and social mores in the Western world and America over the centuries and recent decades with regard to respect for education, including reference to Ralph Waldo Emerson’s seminal lecture on the thinking person as a foundational necessity of true freedom and evolving rather than devolving.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to the Transcript section.) (

Among others, programs you will find of interest on these themes are my Dialogues on this site with Deborah Tannen, David Boren, Ted Sorensen, George Lakoff, Andrew Weil, Paul Ray, Steve McIntosh, and Michael Dowd, among others [click on their name(s) in green on right hand column of the Living Dialogues Home Page on this site].

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In this intriguing 2-part dialogue with my friend Professor Ari Berk, acclaimed mythologist and storyteller, we share back and forth a wealth of information illuminating the deep sources of the mystery of life and death enacted each year in the cosmos at the time of the Winter Solstice. Their hold on the spirit and imagination of peoples of all ages everywhere “leaning into, wanting to participate in, the cosmic mysteries” has generated throughout the ages numerous stories, songs, ceremonies and celebrations to honor and evoke our shared divinity and the joy of creation.

In view of the New Era of potential global political change many feel has dawned in the early winter of 2008, this Part 2 dialogue is particularly interesting in its understanding of how the celebration of the evergreen, renewing energies evoked at Christmastime and the Winter Solstice can lift the spirits and create a foundation for bringing the light and warmth of our inner sun alive, and into all our relations throughout the year and our shared journeys on the planet.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

Among others, programs you will find of interest on these themes are my Dialogues on this site with Michael Meade, Angeles Arrien, Coleman Barks, Sobonfu Some, Vine DeLoria Jr., and Michael Dowd.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In this intriguing 2-part dialogue with my friend Professor Ari Berk, acclaimed mythologist and storyteller, we share back and forth a wealth of information illuminating the deep sources of the mystery of life and death enacted each year in the cosmos at the time of the Winter Solstice. Their hold on the spirit and imagination of peoples of all ages everywhere “leaning into, wanting to participate in, the cosmic mysteries” has generated throughout the ages numerous stories, songs, ceremonies and celebrations to honor and evoke our shared divinity and the joy of creation.

In view of the New Era of potential global political change many feel has dawned in the early winter of 2008, this Part 1 dialogue is particularly interesting in its reference to the historical changes in the family and social mores in the Western world and America over the centuries -- and the restrictive or transformative role played by the different ways in which the secular and religious holiday of Christmas has been celebrated over time.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

Among others, programs you will find of interest on these themes are my Dialogues on this site with Michael Meade, Angeles Arrien, Coleman Barks, Sobonfu Some, Vine DeLoria Jr., and Michael Dowd.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“…this is a fantastic interview. Like you said , this would be an exploration, a discovery process, and through this interview I’ve been challenged to expand my awareness and think in a more enriched way. And, one, I’m appreciative that you’ve created a platform for me to share many of the ideas. Two, is you really do your homework, and I appreciate that. And, three, you enrich the whole interview by bringing forth your wealth of knowledge as a sharing together. So thank you very much.” – John Gray, author of “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus”, one of the best-selling books of the past decade, and now the follow-up New York Times Best-seller “Why Mars and Venus Collide”

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In this highly engaging 2-part dialogue with internationally-acclaimed John Gray, the best-selling relationship author of all time and 30-year marriage counselor, we go considerably deeper into the differences and creative possibilities between men and women (Vive La Difference!), exploring much further the themes first described by John in his mega-bestselling book, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus (over 40 million sold in over 45 languages throughout the world).

In his new bestseller, Why Mars and Venus Collide, these themes are now updated and considerably expanded, and entirely new ones are introduced, in the light also of the latest relevant scientific research. Our dialogue is full of fascinating insights, often very funny moments of self-recognition, and spontaneous back and forth mutual observations and stories beyond what’s in either of the two books -- showing with specific examples that, indeed, “old dogs can learn new tricks” of real transformative relational value in this arena at any age and whatever your gender. Great whether you’re single, married, in or out of relationship.

Go to Dialogue Episode 75 for Part 1.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

Other programs you will find of interest on these themes are Dialogues 72 and 73 with Deborah Tannen, Dialogue 52 with Angeles Arrien, Dialogues 53 and 54 with Coleman Barks, Dialogues 55-57 with Sobonfu Some, Dialogue 28 with Michael Dowd, and Dialogue 69 with Barbara Marx Hubbard.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“I’m Dr. John Gray, author of Why Mars and Venus Collide. You’re listening to Living Dialogues with Duncan Campbell – which is a real dialogue, not just an interview, but rather something which inspires more information than I would normally share in an interview. He participates, I participate, and the result is something greater than whatever I thought was possible.” – John Gray, author of “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus”, one of the best-selling books of the past decade, and now the follow-up New York Times Best-seller “Why Mars and Venus Collide”

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In this highly engaging 2-part dialogue with internationally-acclaimed John Gray, the best-selling relationship author of all time and 30-year marriage counselor, we go considerably deeper into the differences and creative possibilities between men and women (Vive La Difference!), exploring much further the themes first described by John in his mega-bestselling book, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus (over 40 million sold in over 45 languages throughout the world).

In his new bestseller, Why Mars and Venus Collide, these themes are now updated and considerably expanded, and entirely new ones are introduced, in the light also of the latest relevant scientific research. Our dialogue is full of fascinating insights, often very funny moments of self-recognition, and spontaneous back and forth mutual observations and stories beyond what’s in either of the two books -- showing with specific examples that, indeed, “old dogs can learn new tricks” of real transformative relational value in this arena at any age and whatever your gender. Great whether you’re single, married, in or out of relationship.

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com. ”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Wisdom Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

Other programs you will find of interest on these themes are Dialogues 72 and 73 with Deborah Tannen, Dialogue 52 with Angeles Arrien, Dialogues 53 and 54 with Coleman Barks, Dialogues 55-57 with Sobonfu Some, Dialogue 28 with Michael Dowd, and Dialogue 69 with Barbara Marx Hubbard.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey. My thanks and appreciation for your participation.

more.

Episode Description:

“Duncan Campbell has just been a terrific conversationalist and I’ve been so grateful for the opportunity to enjoy Living Dialogues. It’s a privilege. I can’t thank you enough. I’ve had a lot of interviews, but this one has been very special.” – Deborah Tannen, author of New York Times best-seller You Just Don’t Understand: Women and Men in Conversation

“For human evolution to continue, the conversation must deepen.” – Margaret Mead

In this dialogue with internationally-acclaimed scholar and author Deborah Tannen, we converse about the kind of fresh dialogue we can generate between the sexes as we all learn to more deeply observe and bring together “masculine speak” and “feminine speak”. As we understand and appreciate our different communication styles and influences, we have in essence the experience of learning another language to enter together the mystery of our otherness and celebrate Vive La Difference!

With the 2008 U.S. elections over we can turn our attention to the various personal dialogues we can cultivate “in building bridges of understanding and wisdom in the reaching out and cooperative spirit required by our 21st century realities, and the essential roles that we all are called to play in our evolution for it to take place”. (For more, including information on the Engaged Elder Dialogue Series on my website www.livingdialogues.com, click on Episode Detail to the left above and go to Transcript section.)

“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Contact me if you like at www.livingdialogues.com. Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

more.

Episode Description:

“Duncan Campbell has just been a terrific conversationalist and I’ve been so grateful for the opportunity to enjoy Living Dialogues.  It’s a privilege.  I can’t thank you enough.  I’ve had a lot of interviews, but this one has been very special.” – Deborah Tannen, author of New York Times best-seller The Argument Culture:  Stopping America’s War of Words

In this dialogue with internationally-acclaimed scholar and author Deborah Tannen (click on ”Episode Detail” to the left here and then “Bio” on her photo there), we talk about the origins and history of confrontational, adversarial debate in our Western modern mind culture, and how it has degenerated and been corrupted to the point that its present form has poisoned our educational and legal systems, as well as our media and politics; and how we can go beyond that now into co-creating a renewed culture that is vital and wise, one that chooses and embodies truth-seeking and truth-telling in generative dialogue and respectful truth-seeking debate, and which values and honors genuine integrity and authenticity (much as Socrates did in response to the corruption of Sophist philosophy and the ensuing decline of Periclean Age democracy  in Greece).

As I say in this Dialogue, we are in the midst of an evolutionary crisis, in which we need as a species to find a way to go beyond the adolescent “you’re either for us or against us” mentality into a co-creative discerning dialogue with mature voices.  We need to come to cultural consensus that knowing the truth is healthy and knowing what is real and deceptive is an important survival trait for the species.  We cannot continue, in our media and elsewhere, to allow deliberate deceit to be accepted and purveyed manipulatively as “negative ads” and other public pronouncements which are “just part of the ‘game’ of politics or advertising”. 

In this 2008 election, as supported by the global psyche and celebrated all around the world in a way not seen since V-E Day and V-J Day ending World War II, our entire species, including America, has survived this test of initiation into maturity.  More intiatic tests await us in the years to come until the Tipping Point is no longer in doubt.  Regressive and static forces are still in resistance, and so as I say in the Introduction to the Transcript section of the Episode Detail to this Dialogue:

This is the time for renewed dialogue, for visionary and inspiring discourse producing practical and innovative solutions together, to engage our own elder wisdom and youthful inspiration, and in so doing to experience and exemplify that “Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”™.

Next week, on Program 73, Deborah Tannen and I will converse about the kind of fresh dialogue we can generate between the sexes as we learn to more deeply observe, understand, and bring together “masculine speak” and “feminine speak” – as one of the kinds of dialogues we need to create “in building bridges of understanding and wisdom in the cooperative spirit and reaching out required by our 21st century realities, and the essential roles that we all are called to play in our evolution for it to take place”.

Ways in which we can all contribute our own new energy and ideas in this emerging paradigm shift are outlined in the dialogue with myself and Barbara Marx Hubbard re Citizen Solutions in Dialogue 69, and you can also go to the new website established by President-Elect Obama, http://Change.gov, click on "American Moment" and choose Share your Story or Share your Vision, and contact me if you live at www.livingdialogues.com.

 For a summary of some of the practical proposed solutions I have made to the New Era administration in this time of required change, you can see my additional website www.newenergycentury.com or contact me at www.livingdialogues.com.  Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

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Episode Description:

“I can wholeheartedly say that this has been a most stimulating dialogue. Thank you so much.” – David Mendell, author and journalist with the Chicago Tribune

David Mendell is the first and premier biographer of the man newly elected President of the United States, Barack Obama.  This dialogue illuminates the background of the man and his/our mission in ways that illustrate why he is the destined choice in this role of and for our global zeitgeist, the world soul consciousness, the unfolding spirit of the times.  With the election of Barack Hussein Obama, we have successfully crossed an evolutionary threshold and are in position to dynamically move forward as a species.

The etymology of Barack is “blessed” and the etymology of Hussein is “beautiful” or “handsome”.  By our collective choice in this instance we have become blessed to once again talk of, aspire to, and embody Beauty, Truth, and Goodness in our lives without the sophistic soul-corroding irony of the past decades, and with the confidence and wisdom of Plato, Krishna, and all such predecessors everywhere in all cultures in renewed dialogues for the 21st century.

Neither redeemer nor prophet in the adolescent paradigm of “I will fight for you”, but in deep listening eloquence an expression and reflection of “Out of the Many We Are One”. 

Next week, on Program 72, my guest will be Deborah Tannen, widely-acclaimed author of the landmark New York Times bestseller You Just Don’t Understand:  Men and Women in Conversation, in conversation with me about how we can transform our Argument Culture into one of evolutionary dialogue.  “I have done many interviews, but this was very special.  A privilege.” – Deborah Tannen

 For a summary of the practical proposed solutions I have made in this time of required change, you can see my additional website www.newenergycentury.com or contact me at www.livingdialogues.com.  Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com.

Ways in which we can all contribute our own new energy and ideas in this emerging paradigm shift are outlined in the dialogue with myself and Barbara Marx Hubbard re Citizen Solutions in Program 69.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

more.

Episode Description:

“This dialogue, as the title of the program – Living Dialogues – indicates, is one of the keys to advancing thinking, in helping us to better understand the challenges that we face so that we can intelligently respond to them.  I’m delighted to be here.” – Lester Brown, President, the Earth Policy Institute

In this episode of our Engaged Elder series, I dialogue with globally-acclaimed author (Plan B 3.0: Mobilizing to Save Civilization) Lester Brown, founder of the Worldwatch Institute and President of the Earth Policy Institute. We go into the details of why and how the New Energy Economy can and must be realized as the next major step in the conscious evolution of our species in the very near future, activated and empowered by understanding what technology and resources are already at our disposal, and the urgency of mobilizing to do so -- much as, for instance, FDR and America did in mobilizing existing resources and a determined and generous national will to emerge stable and stronger from the economic collapse of the 30s, leading the way to the beginnings of global consciousness with the creation of the United Nations after World War II.

Exciting new ideas emerge from the dialogue on the spot.

Since I began writing about my vision of an evolutionary New Energy Economy more than four years ago, I have called it New Energy for a New World, New Energy for a New Century, etc.  Bracken Hendricks and Jay Inslee (Programs 67 and 68) are the co-authors of the excellent recent book Apollo’s Fire: Igniting America’s Clean Energy Economy.  Van Jones (Program 68) is the author of the just-published and highly praised The Green Collar Economy:  How One Solution Can Fix Our Two Biggest Problems, with a foreword by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.   Together with Worldwatch Institute founder and current Earth Enterprise Institute president Lester Brown’s Plan B 3.0: Mobilizing to Save Civilization (in this Program 70), Apollo’s Fire and now The Green Collar Economy constitute perhaps the best trilogy of the key truly up-to-date educational and informational resources for personal and public policy choices that meet the ineluctable evolutionary imperative for us to now consciously move from the Old Oil Elite Fossil Fuel economy to a New Energy economy for a New World.  Such a New Energy economy will provide the foundation for self-reliant prosperity, real security and abundance, and generosity of collaboration for all in this New Century. 

Ways in which we can all contribute our own new energy and ideas in this emerging paradigm shift are outlined in the dialogue with myself and Barbara Marx Hubbard re Citizen Solutions in Program 69.

Next week, on Program 71

 For a summary of the practical proposed solutions I have made in this time of required change, you can see my additional website www.newenergycentury.com or contact me at www.livingdialogues.com.  Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

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Episode Description:

“Thank you so much, Duncan.  You are definitely a co-creative partner!” – Barbara Marx Hubbard

In this episode of our Engaged Elder series, I dialogue with Barbara Marx Hubbard, President of the foundation for Conscious Evolution, who helped create the field of conscious evolution.  In addition to contextualizing the current global economic crisis and tipping point U.S. election as a great evolutionary call and opportunity, we discuss the proposal of Barbara and others for a three-point “Citizen Solutions” program to be integrated into the U.S. Vice-President’s office (as Barbara initially proposed when her name was placed in nomination for Vice-President in 1984), carried on the Internet, and embodied in local and regional Citizen Solutions Councils, to which each of us can contribute.

This democratization of engendering practical transformative proposals reflects the already emerging “prophetic consciousness” present in many of us (and in potential in all of us), and evolution’s requirement for a democratization of awareness, collaboration, and benefits for necessary change to take place – as illustrated in one example by my proposal for New Energy Bonds.  

Next week, on Program 70 in dialogue with globally-acclaimed author (Plan B 3.0: Mobilizing to Save Civilization) Lester Brown, founder of the Worldwatch Institute and President of the Earth Policy Institute, we go into the details of why and how the New Energy Economy can and must be realized as the next major step in the conscious evolution of our species in the very near future, activated and empowered by understanding what technology and resources are already at our disposal, and the urgency of mobilizing to do so -- much as, for instance, FDR and America did in mobilizing existing resources and a determined and generous national will to emerge stable and stronger from the economic collapse of the 30s, leading the way to the beginnings of global consciousness with the creation of the United Nations after World War II.  Exciting new ideas emerge from the dialogue on the spot.

 For a summary of the practical proposed solutions I have made in this time of required change, you can see my additional website www.newenergycentury.com or contact me at www.livingdialogues.com.  Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

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Episode Description:

In this episode of our Engaged Elder series, I dialogue with widely-acclaimed activist Van Jones, author of the just-issued The Green Collar Economy, Bob Gough, international clean energy award winner and Secretary of the InterTribal COUP Wind Energy association and project, Bracken Hendricks, co-founder of the Apollo Alliance, and Jay Inslee, U.S. Congressman from Seattle, who for a number of years has been the leading voice in the U.S. Congress for what I term New Energy and a New Energy economy.

Since I began writing about my vision of an evolutionary New Energy Economy more than four years ago, I have called it New Energy for a New World, New Energy for a New Century, etc.  Bracken Hendricks and Jay Inslee are the co-authors of the excellent recent book Apollo’s Fire: Igniting America’s Clean Energy Economy.  Van Jones is the author of the just-published and highly praised The Green Collar Economy:  How One Solution Can Fix Our Two Biggest Problems, with a foreword by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.   Together with Worldwatch Institute founder and current Earth Enterprise Institute president Lester Brown’s Plan B 3.0: Mobilizing to Save Civilization (see Program 70), Apollo’s Fire and now The Green Collar Economy constitute perhaps the best trilogy of the key truly up-to-date educational and informational resources for personal and public policy choices that meet the ineluctable evolutionary imperative for us to now consciously move from the Old Oil Elite Fossil Fuel economy to a New Energy economy for a New World.  Such a New Energy economy will provide the foundation for self-reliant prosperity, real security and abundance, and generosity of collaboration for all in this New Century.

In addition to my previous dialogue with Jay Inslee recorded during the Democratic National Convention in Denver on August 25, 2008 (Program 67), this Program 68 dialogue highlights in wider detail the great benefits and new energy resources that are readily available in the U.S., and the reality of the technological options now available for us that we can quickly, efficiently, and economically bring to scale, capable of moving us to the kind of New Energy economy and policy proposals I first put forth in 2004 and which the times are now catching up to:  to empower and reward all citizens, not just the already wealthy, and to salvage and repair our broken economy in the only sustainable ways possible.  My New Energy proposals discussed include both democratizing a portion of venture capital to restructure our economy, now in global crisis, through New Energy Bonds, and the job creation and training program I have termed O.N.E. America Corps.

The O.N.E. America Corps also presents us the possibility for the U.S. to go a long way in reality and in the eyes of the world to cleanse the national psyche of what Pulitzer Prize-wining historian Joseph Ellis (see Programs 37 and 38) has called the “two original sins of America” which have contracted and held America back from realizing its full destiny:  the ongoing long-term effects of slavery and our treatment of the Native Americans.

Next week, on Program 69 in dialogue with Barbara Marx Hubbard, we talk about how the evolution of consciousness can be reflected in Conscious Citizen Solutions to our current economic collapse, including as an example my proposal for New Energy Bonds, and how each of you can contribute your own new energy ideas.

For a summary of the practical proposals I have made in this time of global economic crisis and required change, you can see my additional website www.newenergycentury.com or contact me at www.livingdialogues.com.  Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

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Episode Description:

In this episode of our Engaged Elder series, I dialogue with Jay Inslee, U.S. Congressman from Seattle, who for a number of years has been the leading voice in the U.S. Congress for what I term New Energy and a New Energy economy.  Since I began writing about my vision of it more than four years ago, I have called it New Energy for a New World, New Energy for a New Century, etc.  Jay is the co-author of the excellent recent book Apollo’s Fire: Igniting America’s Clean Energy Economy, written with Brandon Hendricks, one of the original co-founders of the Apollo Alliance.   Together with Worldwatch Institute founder and current Earth Enterprise Institute president Lester Brown’s Plan B 3.0: Mobilizing to Save Civilization, Apollo’s Fire is one of two of the key truly up-to-date educational and informational resources for personal and public policy choices that meet the ineluctable evolutionary imperative for us to consciously move from the Old Oil Elite Fossil Fuel economy to a New Energy economy for a New World.  Such a New Energy economy will provide the foundation for self-reliant prosperity, real security and abundance, and generosity of collaboration for all in this New Century.

Recorded during the Democratic National Convention in Denver on August 25, 2008, our dialogue highlights the reality of the technological options already available for us that we can quickly, efficiently, and economically bring to scale, capable of moving us to the kind of New Energy economy and policy proposals I first put forth in 2004 and which the times are now catching up to:  to empower and reward all citizens, not just the already wealthy, and to salvage and repair our broken economy in the only sustainable ways possible.  And in the process our dialogue also identifies where the blockages are occurring in our political system, and which individuals and interests are opposing, stalling and undermining that necessary evolution.

Next week, on Program 68 in dialogues with Jay Inslee and co-author Bracken Hendricks, and with Bob Gough of InterTribal COUP wind energy and Van Jones, author of The Green Collar Economy, I go into detail regarding my proposals for New Energy Bonds and the establishment of a O.N.E. AMERICA Corps.

For a summary of the practical proposals I have made in this time of required change, you can see my additional website www.newenergycentury.com or contact me at www.livingdialogues.com.  Visit my blog at Duncan.personallifemedia.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

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Episode Description:

In this episode of our Engaged Elder series, I dialogue with Tom Hayden, known to many around the world as a leading activist for progressive change for the last five decades, spanning both his “youth” and “elder” roles in the ongoing “ethical dialogue” about society’s values – from being a Freedom Rider in the Deep South of the U.S. and a founding member of the Students for a Democratic Society in 1961 and author of its visionary call, the Port Huron Statement, to nearly two decades in the Legislature of the State of California passing over one hundred critical measures, to his role in Progressives for Obama and his commentaries on The Huffington Post.  As a writer, he is the author or editor of fifteen books, including the recent Voices of the Chicago Eight: A Generation on Trial and Writings for a Democratic Society.

In Part 1 (Program 65) Tom and I review the post-World War II creation of various institutions, including the United Nations, intended to secure a peaceful and cooperative world, succeeded by the transformational energies of the Sixties world-wide, led primarily by a younger generation and its vision of a coherent social movement that could energize and sustain those ideals in the face of the Cold War, widespread racial intolerance, and the Vietnam War.  This review of our role in social change as youth then leads into the era of the Eighties and Nineties, and sets the stage for a compelling analysis in Part 2 of the current evolutionary challenges of our times that comes full circle.

In Part 2 (Program 66), Tom and I speak in and about the present from the engaged elder perspective of the “wisdom of learned experience”.  I begin by describing the unprecedented breach of trust between the generations that occurred in our youth in the Sixties (“don’t trust anyone over 30”), fueled in large part by the U.S. government’s waging of the Vietnam War with massive deception, later revealed in the apologetic memoirs of Robert McNamara, the then Secretary of Defense, and others.  Tom and I then dialogue – reviewing a number of contemporary topics -- about the nature of leadership, and how a new form of collaborative and transparent leadership and participation (“yes we can”, rather than promises of “I will fight for you”) can restore the existence and vitality of an “ethical dialogue” between the generations, a dialogue that is critically important if we are to meet the new century’s evolutionary challenges.  The youthful “participatory democracy” of the Sixties can come into an evolved mature form in our time, and enable us together to reach a “tipping point” into a transformative, energizing future, rather than a “toppling” point into a great fall backward.

For practical proposals I have made in this time of required change, you can see my additional website www.newenergycentury.com or contact me at www.livingdialogues.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

more.

Episode Description:

In this episode of our Engaged Elder series, I dialogue with Tom Hayden, known to many around the world as a leading activist for progressive change for the last five decades, spanning both his “youth” and “elder” roles in the ongoing “ethical dialogue” about society’s values – from being a Freedom Rider in the Deep South of the U.S. and a founding member of the Students for a Democratic Society in 1961 and author of its visionary call, the Port Huron Statement, to nearly two decades in the Legislature of the State of California passing over one hundred critical measures, to his role in Progressives for Obama and his commentaries on The Huffington Post.  As a writer, he is the author or editor of fifteen books, including the recent Voices of the Chicago Eight: A Generation on Trial and Writings for a Democratic Society.

In Part 1 Tom and I review the post-World War II creation of various institutions, including the United Nations, intended to secure a peaceful and cooperative world, succeeded by the transformational energies of the Sixties world-wide, led primarily by a younger generation and its vision of a coherent social movement that could energize and sustain those ideals in the face of the Cold War, widespread racial intolerance, and the Vietnam War.  This review of our role in social change as youth then leads into the era of the Eighties and Nineties, and sets the stage for a compelling analysis in Part 2 of the current evolutionary challenges of our times that comes full circle.

For practical proposals I have made in this time of required change, you can see my additional website www.newenergycentury.com or contact me at www.livingdialogues.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

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Episode Description:

In Part 3 of the dialogue -- recorded September 12, 2008 after the Democratic and Republican Party Conventions -- George and I update and expand considerably on the “narrative” themes of the campaign, why the Republicans say that the campaign is not about “issues” but about “personalities”, and how that approach derived from a corporate marketing strategy begun by Nixon and firmly established as Republican precedent by Reagan.  Understanding the modes of manipulation of these “framings” – unconscious to the ordinary voter and not illuminated by the media – is a key to understanding the election as it proceeds, including the formal debates between the candidates.  The collective psyche of the U.S., like that of the planet, is at a critical evolutionary turning point.  As observed by C. G. Jung, if we bring the elements at work in the unconscious to awareness, as we do in participating in these kinds of dialogues, then we open the possibility of fulfilling our higher purpose and destiny, rather than enduring an unconscious fate.

 You can contact me at www.livingdialogues.com, and see also my new website www.newenergycentury.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

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Episode Description:

In Part 2 of our dialogue, George and I recap how our political choices are influenced by the imprint of our early socialization in our families of origin, and the subsequent acculturation we receive in our education (or lack of it) and in our communities.  As George describes it, our early neurological imprints from our family lead us to think of political parties as a “family” (an idea often reaffirmed by the language of politicians themselves).  The Republican Party in the U.S. he sees as associated with the “strict father” parent and the Democratic Party associated with the “nurturing parents” archetype (belittled and caricatured by the Republicans, abetted by a compliant and somewhat cowed media, as the “Mommy” or “nanny” party, falsely represented as supposedly   taxing the “hard-working” middle class and doling out monies and welfare to the undeserving poor.)

Because of these neurological imprints – manipulated by negative and misleading ads, including outright deliberate deception – many voters do not vote their economic interests based on “the issues” (as one would expect from a Maslow hierarchy of external needs psychological model, based on “kitchen table” issues of food, shelter, and jobs).  Instead, many voters are emotionally triggered and duped by fabricated wedge distractions into voting based on fear, anxiety, and compliance with authority – often against their own interests and that of their children and grandchildren – in order to reaffirm their ”identity” within a group.

The final section is devoted to the dominant “narratives” that are at play between Obama and McCain, what they represent in the collective American psyche, and how they relate to the evolutionary challenge and initiation beyond adolescent group mind we are all confronted with.  Will this election be a Tipping Point and a leap forward, or a Toppling Point in a great fall backward.

 You can contact me at www.livingdialogues.com, and see also my new website www.newenergycentury.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

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Episode Description:

In this episode of our Engaged Elder series, I dialogue with George Lakoff, distinguished professor of Cognitive Science and Linguistics at the University of California, and known to many as the author of the previous New York Times best-sellers ‘Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think’, and ‘Don’t Think of an Elephant’, and now his latest and very timely book ‘The Political Mind: Why You Can’t Understand 21st Century American Politics with an 18th Century Brain’.

The matters George and I dialogue about have universal implications to any country and political system, even though we are here focused on examples from the upcoming “tipping (or toppling) point” 2008 election in the United States.  You will find it interesting no matter which country you live in because the archetypal structure of the human brain, as we know, is something we share across the globe and that really is the point of these programs.

We are all called to go beyond the initial adolescent “breaking away” from the oppressive rule of Mother Church and Father Sovereign in the 18th Century European Enlightenment through the celebration of “Reason”, using the printing press and widespread “democratized” dissemination of knowledge as a path to empowering the “middle class” and “the people”, to a more subtle leap of consciousness in the 21st Century.  In our present latter stage adolescent polarization – stuck in rationalized secular and religious “identity” ideologies and estranged from our early heritage of empathy, with our over-emphasis on expressing self through exclusivism and dominance rather than cooperation and co-creative collaboration – we need to move into a nurturing, mature politics based on self-confident, not self-assertive, transpartisan dialogue.

For practical proposals I have made in this vein, you can see my additional website www.newenergycentury.com or contact me at www.livingdialogues.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey.

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In this episode of our Engaged Elder series, I dialogue with David Boren, U.S. senior statesman and advisor to Barack Obama.  David has been the President of the University of Oklahoma since resigning from the U.S. Senate in 1995 to take that position.  He also teaches history classes to incoming freshman at the university, based on the understanding that if a people does not know how they achieved a certain greatness of contribution, they cannot remain great.  During his two-terms in the U.S. Senate he was the longest serving chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and was previously Governor of Oklahoma.

Keying in on his new book, A Letter to America, we talk about the challenges of the 21st Century for the U.S. to develop a new consciousness, a much better educated citizenry, and the financial and energy independence that will be required for America to play a positive collaborative leadership role in our emerging global world.  In particular we talk about the crucial importance of renewing and maintaining a financially self-reliant and educated middle class -- and I outline my original idea for New Energy Bonds as a not previously possible democratized venture vehicle to move from our traditional and no longer working “tax-and-redistribute” economic model to a new 21st century collaborative, share-the-wealth, empowering investment model.

For further detail on the proposals I have made see my website newenergycentury.com or contact me at livingdialogues.com.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

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Appreciations:

“Duncan Campbell, I heard about your podcast a few months ago, and have been deeply listening to all the dialogues with your fantastic friends/guests. Your words, ideas, and wisdom are truly inspirational. You have evoked a new appetite for knowledge in me that I hope to share with a starving younger generation. Thank you for doing what you do, and creating a unique space, void of boundaries and classification. A breath of fresh air! Much love and respect.” – Amit Kapadiya

Episode Description:

In this book, Pulitzer Prize winner David Maraniss explores and documents the Olympics that set the tone for the second half of the 20th century, with African American stars Wilma Rudolph and flag-bearer decathlete Rafer Johnson heralding the acceleration of the civil rights movement and the arrival of the women’s rights movement in the U.S. in the sixties, and the intensification of the Cold War rivalry between the Soviet Union and the U.S. which prompted the Apollo space mission.

The era-defining 1960 Olympics give great insight into the underlying dynamics of the 2008 Bejing Olympics’ setting the tone for the first half of the 21st century. In his 8-12-08 Op-Ed column in the New York Times, David Brooks described a major aspect of the new U.S.-China rivalry as “the divide between the societies with an individualist mentality and the ones with a collectivist mentality”. As our planetary consciousness undergoes its initiation into a potential higher maturity, we see the peoples of the world bouncing back and forth between these two poles of adolescent affirmation and identity. Will China be able to move beyond its insecurity into a dialogue with the Dalai Lama (see Program 59 with Robert Thurman)? Will the U.S. be able to move beyond its oil addiction into a responsible New Energy for a New World policy as I have proposed (see my website newenergycentury.com)? We shall see. Dialogues 59 and 60 help us “live the questions” deeply, as the poet Rilke advocates.

There is more detail about this episode in the Transcription section on the episode page. Please read further. Thank you.

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Appreciations:

“I’m Robert Thurman, and I’m having a lovely time on Living Dialogues with my friend Duncan Campbell.  I learned a lot today from Duncan about America and about the Persian poet Rumi, about many things, about even Tibet.

And I shared with Duncan the insights and inspirations in the book I have written, which is my tribute to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, called Why the Dalai Matters: His Act of Truth as the Solution for China, Tibet, and the World.  And this book is to inspire us and lift us out of our depression, that “NO we can’t”, which is what we’ve been hearing much too much of, from the world and media and everything.

And luckily now we are hearing “YES we can”, and we have to even hear that and say that to ourselves all the time. We must never accept that something is impossible and is hopeless. With despair comes violence, internal violence of depression, external violence between people.  But out of hope comes love, friendliness, heroism, and that’s what we need today, together today, and that’s what we can manifest. And it is what together we are manifesting in this dialogue.  All the best to you.”  -- Robert Thurman

“In your book you’ve collected from your 45 years of deep friendship with the Dalai Lama many stories of how the Dalai Lama is really, we might say, the great practitioner of what I call ‘the art of dialogue’, the art of communication, both inner dialogue with himself and understanding with great compassion and truthfulness, his own, we might say foibles as well as merits, and those of others…And what you brilliantly illuminate here is why the Dalia Lama matters at every level.  This is not just the “nice man’ who’s talking about being spiritual and kind.  He has a profound and pragmatic understanding of the nature of the planet, including our human hopes and desires, the crises we are all in, and very practical ways to deal with them.

And I will introduce this dialogue by saying that in it, Bob, you also compellingly describe your own analysis and five-part plan, from what we might call a global political perspective of how and why the Dalai Lama and China together could be a key to avoiding World War III.  And so I want to honor you for your life work and for this particular work, but also say what a deep pleasure it always is when you and I come together in these dialogues, and to acknowledge the role of the deep listening audience which is virtually present here that contributes to what has been evoked here in this dialogue.  As you say, “we are all one ocean of dialogue”.

And that is why we are inviting everyone into this dialogue, including the Dalai Lama’s virtual participation as well (whose name ‘dalai’ literally means ‘ocean’, while “lama” means ‘developed person’), since he does not proclaim “listen to what I say”, but rather:  “if you listen to what’s in your own heart, you yourself will have this inner dialogue that will show you and energize you and inspire you to right action”.  And it’s in that spirit that we celebrate this dialogue by honoring the ‘Dalai Lama’ in all of us.”  – Duncan Campbell

“Duncan Campbell, I heard about your podcast a few months ago, and have been deeply listening to all the dialogues with your fantastic friends/guests. Your words, ideas, and wisdom are truly inspirational.  You have evoked a new appetite for knowledge in me that I hope to share with a starving younger generation. Thank you for doing what you do, and creating a unique space, void of boundaries and classification.  A breath of fresh air!  Much love and respect.” –  Amit Kapadiya

Episode Description:
 
In furtherance of creating and maintaining the planetary dialogues now required in the 21st century, I will be featuring a special series of dialogues on this site with myself and other elders in the next few weeks during and after the 2008 Olympics hosted by China and the U.S. election season.  These dialogues will address various specific political aspects of our planetary crisis, with its dangers and opportunities for a visionary and evolutionary shift. (We remember that the Chinese character for “crisis” is often described as meaning both “danger” when visioned from a fear perspective, and “opportunity” when visioned from a wisdom perspective.)

Following last week’s dialogue with Ted Sorensen, counselor to John F. Kennedy, and this week’s dialogue with Robert Thurman on the Why the Dalai Lama Matters: His Act of Truth as the Solution for China, Tibet, and the World, other elders who will join me in coming weeks include Pulitzer Prize winner David Maraniss on Rome 1960: The Olympics That Changed the World, former Senator David Boren on A Letter to America, George Lakoff on The Political Mind: Why You Can’t Understand 21st Century Politics with an 18th Century Brain, and others.

In my preceding dialogues I have talked in various ways about the need to generate dialogues across generational, ethnic, gender, and national boundaries -- building bridges of understanding and wisdom in the cooperative spirit and reaching out required by our 21st century realities, and the essential roles that we all are called to play in our evolution for it to take place.

In this particular dialogue, Bob Thurman describes the world-affecting drama that China is currently engaged in with the Tibetan people and the associated environmental destruction imitative of our own Western past.  I bring in parallels with the European settlers of Australia, and of North and South America, and the conscious and unconscious genocide of the native peoples that took place in that settlement, the karmic effects of which are still with us, partially but not entirely expunged, and the restorative efforts recently being made by Australia and Canada -- as well as the issues of New Energy and what’s at stake in the U.S. and elsewhere to make dramatic changes in our energy habits and relationship to the natural world.
 
Of particular interest is Bob’s metaphor of Tibet as a crucial environmental zone for a great part of Asia, the “water tower” of that part of the world, and his statement of the essential need to keep the water clean that flows down from there, what is often called the “roof of the world”, the source of so many great rivers.

In reference to this, I describe water being both external and an inner symbol, mentioning the words of the poet Rumi (honored by UNESCO in naming 2007 the “Year of Rumi”): “we all know the taste of pure water”, and going on to say: “We need to protect not only the water tower of Tibet on the high plateau in protecting the rivers and Lake Manasarovar, but also protecting what you Bob have called the “inner revolution”, what I see as that inner stream of ‘pure water’, consciousness that can literally water our psyche and cleanse us of what the historian Joseph Ellis has referred to as the ‘original sins’ of how peoples have dealt with other peoples, such as slavery and de facto genocide, of the fear-based psychic contractions we all have individually and as nations.”

On the eve of the Bejing-hosted Olympics, I mention examples from past Olympics illustrating these parallels between the history of the West and the East, and Bob describes in detail his five-part plan, inspired by the world-wide work of the Dalai Lama, for how China could accept the overtures for dialogue from the Dalai Lama and develop a multi-faceted cooperation, both political and ecological, that could be a model for the world as well, based on “treating gently those in our power” and ourselves.

Bob observes at one point:  “It’s very hard for us to have faith that good things can happen, but if we’re more realistic, if we look at and follow the science as the Dalai Lama does, if we look at the reality and have faith in it, we will see that really there is only one way the planet can go and that we are rational beings and we do like our lives, and we like the lives of our children…so this approach, this kind of action, will sway realistic beings, which human beings basically are.  We got our evolutionary power by adapting, by being realistic, we will adapt in this crisis moment, in the twenty-first century, and we will save the planet and ourselves.  No question about it.”

Echoing that, we can conclude that kindness and altruistic outlook are not simply good things to embody, they are the truly wise and necessary practical tools of planetary co-existence – cultivating the deeper forces and energies that will lead us into a “kinder, happier twenty-first century”.  As the Dalai Lama’s spoke in addressing the European parliament after 9/11:  “In place of war, which is obsolete now on this planet, reconciliation has to come through dialogue.”

And there is much more in this stimulating and enriching conversation.  Please join us.

This is the time for renewed dialogue, for visionary and inspiring discourse producing practical and innovative solutions together, to engage our own elder wisdom and youthful inspiration, and in so doing to experience and exemplify that “Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”.

And that is what we all do, in our mutual roles as host, deep listeners, and guests, when we gather together here from all parts of the globe in Living Dialogues.

 

 Other programs you will find of immediate interest on these themes are the Dialogues I have had with mythologist and keeper of world stories Michael Meade `(Programs 48-51), world-renowned cross-cultural anthropologist Angeles Arrien (Program 52), poet and translator of Persian poet Rumi Coleman Barks (Programs 3, 53-54), as well as Programs 13 and 14 with Byron Katie and Stephen Mitchell (editor of The Enlightened Heart, which contains the poem The Swan by Indian poet Kabir which I mention in Part 3 of my Programs 55-57 with African teacher Sobonfu Some) and Program 58 with Ted Sorensen, counselor to John F. Kennedy.   Also of directly related interest in terms of the founding and traditions of the U.S. during its tipping point 2008 election season, with its implications for global shifts, are my dialogues with historian Joseph Ellis, honored as “the Founders’ historian” by The New York Review of Books (see Programs 38 and 39).

 

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STEVE MCINTOSH, FRANCES MOORE LAPPE, STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, MICHAEL MEADE, ANGELES ARRIEN, SOBONFU SOME. TED SORENSEN AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.  All the best, Duncan.

P.S. As a way of further acknowledging and appreciating your part in these dialogues, and since I cannot personally answer all of them, I have begun to publish from time to time in these pages some of the numerous (unsolicited) appreciations received from you.

more.

Appreciations:

“I’m Ted Sorensen, former counsel to John F. Kennedy and author of the new book Counselor: A Life at the Edge of History.  And I have so enjoyed talking for an extended length of time with Duncan Campbell.  Whoever puts him on the air deserves a Nobel, Pulitzer, or any other prize, because clearly this is a program that advances the security and best interest of all the American people, not just a few high-powered lobbyists or special interest groups.  It serves the country well, and I am proud to have been a part of it.  Duncan, I can’t thank you enough.  I have never had a dialogue, much less an interview, anything like this.  And I salute you for the path that you’re following.  Thanks so much.  Keep up the good work.  This has been a joy.” – Ted Sorensen

“And it has been for me too, Ted.  I’ve been so inspired by your example.  So I want to thank you not only for my generation, but for all subsequent generations, for being there, for everything that you have done, and for giving us this latest and great gift of your book Counselor: A Life at the Edge of History.  It’s been such a real deep pleasure to connect with you and to spend this time together.” – Duncan Campbell

“Duncan Campbell, I heard about your podcast a few months ago, and have been deeply listening to all the dialogues with your fantastic friends/guests. Your words, ideas, and wisdom are truly inspirational. You have evoked a new appetite for knowledge in me that I hope to share with a starving younger generation. Thank you for doing what you do, and creating a unique space, void of boundaries and classification. A breath of fresh air! Much love and respect.” – July 23, 2008 Amit Kapadiya

Episode Description:
 
In furtherance of creating and maintaining the planetary dialogues now required in the 21st century, I will be featuring a special series of dialogues on this site with myself and other elders in the next few weeks during the 2008 Olympics hosted by China and the U.S. election season.  These dialogues will address various specific political aspects of our planetary crisis, with its dangers and opportunities for a visionary and evolutionary shift. (We remember that the Chinese character for “crisis” is often described as meaning both “danger” when visioned from a fear perspective, and “opportunity” when visioned from a wisdom perspective.)

Following this dialogue with Ted Sorensen, other elders that will join me in coming weeks include Robert Thurman on the Why the Dalai Lama Matters: His Act of Truth as the Solution for China, Tibet, and the World, Pulitzer Prize winner David Maraniss on Rome 1960: The Olympics That Changed the World, former Senator David Boren on A Letter to America, George Lakoff on The Political Mind: Why You Can’t Understand 21st Century Politics with an 18th Century Brain, and others.

In my preceding dialogues with African teacher Sobonfu Some and others here on Living Dialogues,  I have talked about how our fragmented, specialized modern culture often lacks a rich, nourishing sense of community, and how there is a yearning for unity and peace awakening in different countries all over the world -- where elders are starting to come forward in this time of planetary crisis, and previously indifferent and discouraged youth are voicing their concerns about the future. I have talked also about the foundational role of intimacy, relationships and appreciation in sharing our stories across generational, ethnic, gender, and national boundaries -- building bridges of understanding and wisdom in the cooperative spirit and reaching out required by our 21st century realities, and the essential roles that both youth and elders must play in our evolution for it to take place.

In the early part of the 19th century, the German poet and scientist Goethe observed: “The future of any given nation at any given time depends on the thoughts of its youth under five and twenty”.   In the mid-20th century, the psychological historian Erik Erikson (author of Ghandi’s Truth and Youth: Identity and Crisis) called attention to what he termed the “ethical dialogue” which must take place continuously between open-minded elders sharing their experience and responding in co-creative, mutually respectful interchange to the concerns and perspectives of the next generations, in order for a nation’s civilization to survive.

In my dialogue with Michael Meade in Program 51 and its description, I observed how “the modern mind paradigm and its ‘mid-level’ national myths (including America’s dominance in the late 20th century, sometimes dubbed “the American Century”) are losing their energy and no longer have the hold on the planetary imagination they once did”.  (See also my reference in the Episode Description of Program 51 to Fareed Zakaria, international editor of Newsweek magazine, and his new book The Post-American World).

And so, we begin this special political series with my dialogue with Ted Sorensen, who was the 11 years younger “youth” to John F. Kennedy’s “elder” during their extraordinarily important and visionary collaboration at the beginnings of the nuclear age from 1952 through Kennedy’s death in 1963.  Now a highly-respected elder and sought-after counselor to many worldwide, Ted has performed an invaluable service by taking the last six years to prepare his new book, despite a debilitating stroke which significantly impaired his eyesight, to review documents, and meticulously chronicle, and share with us with his great gift of eloquence, the stories of those years with JFK in a manner supremely relevant to our time.

We start with Ted Sorensen’s elder recollections and stories of John Kennedy because in my view JFK was the first “21st century president” in outlook, a prophetic and inspiring voice -- since the policies he developed, working with Ted and other key advisors, and influenced by a newly-educated (thanks to the G.I. Bill) and awakening public, remain models of the internationalist policies we most need today: honoring both diversity and planetary unity based on cooperation rather than dominance.

Among those very successful policies were the creation, over much political objection at the time, of the Peace Corps and the Alliance for Progress for Latin America, in addition to mobilizing America’s scientific imagination and can-do technological innovation with his call in May 1961 for the Apollo moonshot program to be completed within 8 years and a few months, facing down the Soviet Cuban missile crisis threat in October 1962 with a successful policy of  “vigilance, patience, and restraint”, and opening dialogue with Nikita Kruschev by unilaterally beginning the nuclear disarmament program in his June 1963 American University speech (the same location where 45 years later, the Kennedy torch would be passed by his family to Barack Obama).

All of these programs went beyond the conventional and self-interested horizons of the petroleum-based “military-industrial complex” Eisenhower warned against, and the fear-based thinking of those who sought dominance rather than mature discourse, including hawkish and lobbyist voices in the Congress and the Pentagon.  The effect of JFK’s brief presidency was prophetic in its vision as to what would be required for a sustainable world, policies we would ignore at our peril in the decades that have followed, described even by liberal historian Sean Wilsey in the title to his book as “The Reagan Era: 1974-2008”.  But despite other regressive policies, Ronald Reagan was himself later inspired by the Kennedy legacy, in seeking his own legacy, to reverse course -- abandoning his neo-conservative confrontational rhetoric calling the Soviet Union “the Evil Empire” -- and opening direct talks with Gorbachev, which ultimately led to the end of the 20th Century Cold War.

Having regressed in so many ways in the last decades, we are now in what I am calling a new 21st Century Great Struggle on a planetary scale on many fronts, military, economic, social, environmental (involving proliferating human conflicts over our attachment to scarce resources and resultant health and ecological crises, the 21st century manifestation of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse), acknowledged by Richard Bramson, for instance, as “a more dangerous time than World Wars I and II put together”.

This is the time for renewed dialogue, for visionary and inspiring discourse producing practical and innovative solutions together, to engage our own elder wisdom and youthful inspiration, and in so doing to experience and exemplify that “Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”.

And that is what we all do, in our mutual roles as host, deep listeners, and guests, when we gather together here from all parts of the globe in Living Dialogues.

 

 Other programs you will find of immediate interest on these themes are the Dialogues I have had with mythologist and keeper of world stories Michael Meade (Programs 48-51), world-renowned cross-cultural anthropologist Angeles Arrien (Program 52), poet and translator of Persian poet Rumi Coleman Barks (Programs 3, 53-54), as well as Programs 13 and 14 with Byron Katie and Stephen Mitchell (editor of The Enlightened Heart, which contains the poem The Swan by Indian poet Kabir which I mention in Part 3 of my Programs 55-57 with African teacher Sobonfu Some).   Also of directly related interest in terms of the founding and traditions of the U.S. during its tipping point 2008 election season, with its implications for global shifts, are my dialogues with historian Joseph Ellis, honored as “the Founders’ historian” by The New York Review of Books (see Programs 38 and 39).

 

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STEVE MCINTOSH, FRANCES MOORE LAPPE, STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, MICHAEL MEADE, ANGELES ARRIEN, SOBONFU SOME AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.  All the best, Duncan.

P.S. As a way of further acknowledging and appreciating your part in these dialogues, and since I cannot personally answer all of them, I have begun to publish from time to time in these pages some of the numerous (unsolicited) appreciations received from you.

more.

Appreciations:

 “Thank you Duncan for all the ways that you are enabling people to share their wisdom, and also for holding the torch for everybody to know how to find their way, and for just having a golden heart.  I just so appreciate you.  It is always so great to talk to you and to see the bright light you always shine on so many different subject matters. So thank you.” - Sobonfu Some
 
“For all that you’ve done Sobonfu I just want to honor you and just thank you.  It’s been such a pleasure just to get to know you.  And what I really appreciate about you is your ability to feel the depth of all of this range of challenges and sorrow and isolation, and as you put it loneliness and boredom, that are part of our world and yet find this beautiful sunny brilliance of spirit and humor especially to share with the world as you have.” - Duncan Campbell

“Living Dialogues are transformative! The very best "interviews" you will ever hear.  Duncan Campbell, a world-class 'interviewer,' is sufficiently fascinating and well educated himself that he would make a good subject for an interview. His talent is to first, choose the great thinkers with whom to dialogue. He is then able to somehow not only 'see' the brilliance in each one, but to bring that out in his fantastic dialogues, which are more like a cosmic dance than an interview.  Blessings are the result of experiencing the Living Dialogues. I highly recommend them. Five Stars!” - May 12, 2008, Sunshiny from Clarksville, Arkansas

 

Episode Description:
 
You can listen to and see the descriptions of Parts 1 and 2 of this 3-Part Dialogue on Programs 55 and 56 on this site.

The noted anthropologist Margaret Mead once observed:  “For humanity to evolve, the conversation must deepen” – and, we might add, for our societies to flourish and even survive, the conversation must also broaden to include two groups often neglected and marginalized in our political culture:  elders and youth.

As I said in Part 1 of my conversation with Sobonfu Some:
“We are all of us going through an initiation in the sense of being forced out of the comfort zone of whatever our particular literal, metaphorical, or mental “village” may be – just as you were Sobonfu in your life story. We are all now obliged to go out into a wider world, and learn another language or several other emotional languages, and to begin to weave a real planetary consciousness because it’s the only way we’re going to be whole.  I think of dialogue as an essential element of this process.  The dialogue between elders and youth in terms of age – and the dialogue between elder and younger cultures in terms of time on the planet.  The dialogue between men and women, between ethnicities, between nations.  Because everyone in this participation has a particular wisdom and a particular knowledge to give, including the younger cultures and the young people.  Things are changing so fast on the planet that elder persons and cultures don’t have all the pieces of the puzzle, no matter how long they have been on the planet.  And so they themselves need this revitalizing connection with the younger ones who carry certain knowledge within them.  And the young in turn need a certain kind of mentoring and embrace and respect in being seen by the elders -- and vice-versa -- in order to realize their full potential.  So it’s such a beautiful but also very challenging initiation that we are being called to.”

In this Part 3, Sobonfu and I bring the larger story full circle in seeing with further perspective the essential roles that both youth and elders must play in our evolution for it to take place.

 Other programs you will find of immediate interest on these themes are the Dialogues I have had with Michael Meade (Programs 48-51), Angeles Arrien (Program 52), and Coleman Barks (Programs 53-54), as well as Programs 13 and 14 with Byron Katie and Stephen Mitchell (editor of The Enlightened Heart, which contains the Kabir poem The Swan which I mention in this Part 3 dialogue with Sobonfu).
 
Here are some excerpts from this Part 3:

Sobonfu:  I really believe that in order to be able to change the way things are, if we want to make peace or live in peace in this world, we have to really begin with our children, our youth, and with our elders…So far I haven’t seen any culture survive without their children…and the same with the elders, because the elders are the grounding force in the community. We don’t actually ask enough of their input and yet they have much to share.  We simply think of them as being old.  But in our Dagara tradition, the word “old” means someone who has been cooked in the juice of life and has now this lasting effect…

So if we can begin to see in our elders someone who has wisdom, great ways to share that wisdom, then we won’t have to recreate the wheel of life all over.  We can simply draw from their wisdom and continue to stand proudly on the shoulders of our ancestors in order to be able to bring our gifts in the best possible way.  But until that happens, until our elders and our children, our youth, receive support and respect, we are always going to feel lost in the middle because no one is there to support us or to create a bridge for us to walk on…

Duncan:  …Some of the things that have been fragmented, and “broken” in Alice Walker’s phrase, by the younger, modern culture we might see as a necessary ritualistic and initiatic breaking away from prior traditional concepts that became and have become too closed.  In any kind of mystery of initiation there is a breaking away.  There is a breaking down and a replacement with a new and different form.  If we look at this from a planetary perspective we might say that the intensity of the individualism of theWest has itself become too closed and stuck, and so has in that very stuckness called forth teachers from the older cultures such as your own and such as yourself and others from many parts of the world, as well as new fresh perspectives from a younger generation, to come and work together in a kind of mutual weaving and mutual healing, becoming whole, and mutual co-creation of a new planetary wisdom culture…

We are working together to create a planetary culture by appreciating the history of our own and different cultures and sharing our stories. This is what I have sometimes called the “repository of lived wisdom”, the “deep memory and stories of the culture” that reside in true elders of whatever chronological age, and I have such appreciation for the gifts that you have given…I believe part of it from my own perspective is that we are all becoming planetary citizens…

It reminds me when I was traveling in the great ancient holy city of Varanasi in India, where one of the things I wanted to do was to make a personal pilgrimage to honor the connection and appreciation I felt with the great 15th century poet, Kabir, a weaver by trade who was both Hindu and Muslim and beyond both.  My guide and I searched and searched until we found his effectively anonymous birthplace. It was marked by a tiny temple, next to a little “tank”, as they call it, a small pool of water constructed in the middle of an urban neighborhood with winding alleyways.  There were twelve people gathered around the temple at sunset saying his poetry, and they invited me to share in our mutual appreciation of Kabir.  I spoke a poem of his that had touched me deeply -- about the heart’s journey, symbolized by the flight of a swan, to its own true home (translated in its own pilgrimage from the original Hindi into English by Tagore, then into Polish by Czeslaw Milosz, then back into English by Milosz and Robert Hass).  In return they said to me:  “Yes, very good -- Kabir says ‘we are all pilgrims on this great earth’”.  I think from any culture in any time period we are all pilgrims (the Canterbury Tales comes to mind), sharing our stories as we go along together through this heartfelt journey into and ceaselessly manifesting the beauty of the creation which is our common source.”
 
 And that is precisely what we all do, in our mutual roles as host, deep listeners, and guests, when we gather together here from all parts of the globe in Living Dialogues.

 

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STEVE MCINTOSH, FRANCES MOORE LAPPE, STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, MICHAEL MEADE, ANGELES ARRIEN AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.  All the best, Duncan.

more.

Appreciations:

 “Thank you Duncan for all the ways that you are enabling people to share their wisdom, and also for holding the torch for everybody to know how to find their way, and for just having a golden heart.  I just so appreciate you.  It is always so great to talk to you and to see the bright light you always shine on so many different subject matters. So thank you.” - Sobonfu Some
 
“For all that you’ve done Sobonfu I just want to honor you and just thank you.  It’s been such a pleasure just to get to know you.  And what I really appreciate about you is your ability to feel the depth of all of this range of challenges and sorrow and isolation, and as you put it loneliness and boredom, that are part of our world and yet find this beautiful sunny brilliance of spirit and humor especially to share with the world as you have.” - Duncan Campbell

“Living Dialogues are transformative! The very best "interviews" you will ever hear.  Duncan Campbell, a world-class 'interviewer,' is sufficiently fascinating and well educated himself that he would make a good subject for an interview. His talent is to first, choose the great thinkers with whom to dialogue. He is then able to somehow not only 'see' the brilliance in each one, but to bring that out in his fantastic dialogues, which are more like a cosmic dance than an interview.  Blessings are the result of experiencing the Living Dialogues. I highly recommend them. Five Stars!” - May 12, 2008, Sunshiny from Clarksville, Arkansas

 

Episode Description:
 
You can listen to and see the description of Part 1 of this 3-Part Dialogue on Program 55 on this site.

In this Part 2, Sobonfu and I dialogue about the foundational role of intimacy, relationships and appreciation in extending and bringing to fruition the initiations we spoke about in Part 1, and finding and living our purpose and how our name has a meaning.  This also includes a fascinating and playful dialogue on the cross-cultural understanding of age from Sobonfu’s tradition, illuminating how to access a perception at once wise and childlike that sees and appreciates each new situation appropriately in its essence without judgmentalism.  Black Elk, Brooke Medicine Eagle, Angeles Arrien, Henry Miller, Lao Tzu, and others find their way into these shared stories and perceptions.

Other programs you will find of immediate interest on these themes are the Dialogues I have had with Michael Meade (Programs 48-51), Angeles Arrien (Program 52), and Coleman Barks (Programs 53-54).
 
Here are some excerpts from this Part 2:
 
Duncan:  In our prior dialogue we talked about your life and how you came here from the Dagara tribe in West Africa, landing originally in the middle of winter in Detroit, Michigan and the ways in which in that particular initiation you discovered the absence of community when you had to make a life directly here in a strange country and one really quite far removed from the intimacy of the small village life rich in ritual and wisdom of the old ways that you had come from in Africa. And since arriving here many years ago in 1991 you have not only learned English but you've shared the wisdom and beauty of your own experience and initiation and all of its challenges and ups and downs of initiation in several books, including one entitled "The Spirit of Intimacy: Ancient Teachings in the Ways of Relationships".

And in that book, given my own calling to dialogue and evolution, I was inspired by your focus on relationships. Because I think it’s a bridge to the deeper sense of community that you teach about and bring forth in your work…..the very multi-faceted deep way that you have talked about relationship as being part of a core of the human experience and one that you have found as Alice Walker put it, somewhat "broken" here in the West when you arrived.
Sobonfu: Right……Relationship really basically is something, its just like air that everybody needs. It’s just something that we all crave whether we are out in the street or somewhere in our private office or even being in the monastery. We all long to be loved, to be seen, to be valued…..acceptance is what we are looking for. When we are accepted we feel a part of something bigger. We feel doorways opening to us that we didn't know existed before. So the road to intimacy in my tradition not only include people, the environment you are in, but also Sprit, the Divine. Because no true intimacy can be without the present sense and the blessing of the Divine.

So as a result intimacy becomes like the foundation stone for each human being to step on, on which the relationship is going to be created. So for me, when I talk about intimacy, when I talk about my relationship, I am always look for what is the bigger purpose for me to encounter this person. What is Spirit wanting me to do here and so forth. However as much as the human ego would like it to be about us, it is not about us. It’s about something higher. It’s about trying to bring a gift out into the world. and that's why we encounter new people. Even if it’s a brief moment or a long-term relationship they all have their purpose. So for me, relationship, spirit, community, all go hand in hand because you cannot uphold a relationship all by yourself. You need the support of community and you need the support of Spirit and so forth.

Duncan: And one of the things I am think of as you are speaking Sobonfu is that in traditional societies all over the world from time in memorial there has been the recognition of the need for the human being to first leave the community in a kind of initiation of aloneness to see certain kinds of visions or images which reveal to the individual what their unique gift is in the world; their unique mission we might say. Before they then come back to be able to share that as a part of the piece of the larger puzzle of the community. And we think in modern times of Black Elk (as recounted in Black Elk Speaks) in his vision quest and his wonderful saying when he came back from his own alone time separated from he community and had his great vision he came back and said: "I understood more than I saw. And I saw more than I can say. And what I can say is that I saw the hoop of my people and the hoops of all peoples surrounding the central mountain, Mt. Harney” (that happens to be the sacred mountain in his particular geographic location of South Dakota in the United States). And then he said as Joseph Campbell put it the all important addendum: “but the central mountain is everywhere”.

And in that statement we see that this journey that human beings have made from time immemorial from the collective embrace of the womb of the mother, the womb of the family, the womb of the community out into a lonely journey of let us say adolescent initiation into the deeper mysteries of the world. And then the coming back into community, in maturity, and being able to embody one could say the sacred marriage of the inner masculine and the inner feminine and then to make a living marriage and to create new life so that the community of beings can continue in the great universal drama.  Human and planetary evolution is something that has an inner structure that is similar everywhere in the world. And as each one of us tells his or her story about how they have gone through that great timeless initiation we add to each others storehouse of understanding and acceptance. And oddly enough it is often a gift of hearing someone else's story that allows each of us to accept ourselves more deeply than we have before.

Sobonfu: Right. Absolutely. I think those are the stories that are important because the circle is not always there for people to share their story. So in meeting somebody new and in them sharing their story, in us sharing our story, we have already created a bridge that is safe for each on of us to walk on. And also for us to be able to open and to share what is that gift is that we are bringing. That is what is so beautiful in this time when it’s possible for people to basically be able to travel everywhere, to meet new people and to share their story. And every single time that they have shared with somebody and they have also listened and received this story of the other person something new is born out of them. A new level of their gift begins to shine again. And that is that beauty that we are all searching for in sharing our own story.

Duncan:  And that is precisely what we all do, in our mutual roles as host, deep listeners, and guests, when we gather together here from all parts of the globe in Living Dialogues.

 

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STEVE MCINTOSH, FRANCES MOORE LAPPE, STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, MICHAEL MEADE, ANGELES ARRIEN AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.  All the best, Duncan.

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Appreciations:

 “Thank you Duncan for all the ways that you are enabling people to share their wisdom, and also for holding the torch for everybody to know how to find their way, and for just having a golden heart.  I just so appreciate you.  It is always so great to talk to you and to see the bright light you always shine on so many different subject matters. So thank you.” - Sobonfu Some
 
“For all that you’ve done Sobonfu I just want to honor you and just thank you.  It’s been such a pleasure just to get to know you.  And what I really appreciate about you is your ability to feel the depth of all of this range of challenges and sorrow and isolation, and as you put it loneliness and boredom, that are part of our world and yet find this beautiful sunny brilliance of spirit and humor especially to share with the world as you have.” - Duncan Campbell

“Living Dialogues are transformative! The very best "interviews" you will ever hear.  Duncan Campbell, a world-class 'interviewer,' is sufficiently fascinating and well educated himself that he would make a good subject for an interview. His talent is to first, choose the great thinkers with whom to dialogue. He is then able to somehow not only 'see' the brilliance in each one, but to bring that out in his fantastic dialogues, which are more like a cosmic dance than an interview.  Blessings are the result of experiencing the Living Dialogues. I highly recommend them. Five Stars!” -  May 12, 2008, Sunshiny from Clarksville, Arkansas

 

Episode Description:
 
Part 1 of a 3-Part Dialogue:

Let me begin by introducing my great friend Sobonfu Some.  Sobonfu was born and raised in Burkina Faso, the former Upper Volta in Africa, and she is an initiated member of the Dagara tribe of West Africa.  Her voice was one of the first in recent times to bring African spirituality to the West.  She continually travels the world, conducting seminars and workshops that offer her perspective on birth, pregnancy, community, healing, intimacy, rituals, the sacred quality of everyday life and much more.  She is the founder of Ancestors’ Wisdom Spring, and her books include Welcoming Spirit Home: Ancient African Teachings to Celebrate Children and Community; The Spirit of Intimacy:
Ancient Teachings in the Ways of Relationships; and Falling out of Grace.

As I mentioned in the last of the three dialogues on this site with myself and Coleman Barks (listen to Program 54 and see its Episode Description), we in modern industrial cultures “need to balance both the modern mind’s excessive emphasis on the mental (which can leave us feeling, in the poet Rumi’s words, “empty and frightened” in our fragmented, specialized culture, often lacking a rich, nourishing sense of community), with our indigenous heritage of appreciating the embrace of the earth...We need to develop this dynamic equipoise of spirit and soul in order to develop our own elderhood, as Rumi did in his time, in order to meet the challenges of the 21st century, to create not just a localized sanity, but a planetary civilization which can communicate with and within all of its component parts so we don’t just self-destruct”.  In imparting her birth tradition’s ancient teachings, often through the intimate and (to us) amazing yet accessible details of her own lived experience that we describe and situate in these dialogues, Sobonfu, in the words of Alice Walker, is a teacher that “can help us put together so many things that our modern Western world has broken”.

In this first Dialogue we explore the extraordinary (to those of us in modern cultures) initiations which welcomed Sobonfu’s spirit into this world and prepared here for her soul’s unfoldment and revealed to her her life’s purpose and mission.  As I mention in this dialogue, the “hearing ritual” which took place while Sobonfu was still in her mother’s womb and which she describes in this dialogue, is evocative of the recent work in the West of the brilliant Jungian James Hillman in his book The Soul’s Code and Caroline Myss in her Sacred Contracts (see Programs 17 and 18 on this site) in how we might discover our soul’s purpose.  In Sobonfu’s words:  “We had this ritual in my tribe and village because as a human being you always want your life to be a reflection of what you think you are creating and you are forgetting that there is something that the greater universe has in place for you.”

Here are some excerpts from this Part 1: 

“Duncan:  And I think now that its part of a whole process that seems to be awakening in different countries all over the world, where elders are being called forward from many indigenous cultures at this time.  Organizations are being formed spontaneously as it were, as in the fulfillment of ancient prophecies that there would come a time when having lost something really essential in the human soul, we are now having to work together at an international transnational level with many different gifts coming from many different cultures to in a sense put it all back together again, that which has been broken.  And some cultures to heal ourselves requires even going beyond our own culture.

Sobonfu:   Yes, right! And as you know, many people say, the time is right, I agree.  Especially with many indigenous communities that have held on to their own wisdom for so long and the world is changing.  And the young people in those communities are not necessarily going to be the ones to unfold this wisdom.  And so there is a need to have it be alive somewhere.  And also because people are really ready for this kind of wisdom and are willing to receive them in the forms that they come without wanting to change them, dissect them, or make them look like something else.  And that is the beauty in it, and of course, you know, each one of these tribes coming have wisdom, it is a conversion of all that bring together the truth.  That the human soul and spirit is so craving.  Because not just one way is going to make it work for us.

Duncan:  And I think that’s the point, yes, for all of us…that we are all of us going through an initiation in a sense of being forced out of the comfort zone of whatever our particular village may be, literally or metaphorically as you were.  And in a sense obliged to go out into a wider world and learn another language or several other emotional languages and to begin to weave a real planetary consciousness because it’s the only way that we are going to be healed.  And I think of dialogue as an essential element of this.  The dialogue between elders and youth in terms of age.  The dialogue between elder cultures and you, younger cultures in terms of time on the planet.  The dialogue between men and women.  Because everyone in this participation has a particular wisdom and a particular knowledge to give including the younger cultures and young people.  Things are changing so fast on the planet that elders don’t have all of the pieces of the puzzle, no matter how long they have been on the planet.  And so they themselves need this revitalizing rejuvenating connection with the young who carry certain knowledge within them.  And the young in turn need a certain kind of mentoring and embrace and respect in being seen by the elders in order to realize their full potential.  So it’s such a beautiful but also very challenging initiation that we are being called to.

Sobonfu:  Right.  Absolutely.  And it is an initiation that we have to go through if we are all going to survive.   Now, there is no way of going around it.

Duncan:  Well and that’s it.  There is no way of going around it and so we go through it like a birth canal.  We really can’t short circuit it in any way and we come as you put it so beautifully, to find the wisdom and the humor in failure, to find yourself in your core essence when you as you entitled one of your books, you fall out of grace.  To find the way the children can be celebrated in community and the ongoingness of life even when you feel the most alienated, lets say, even from your own tradition.  For all that you’ve done Sobonfu I just want to honor you and just thank you.  It’s been such a pleasure just to get to know you.  And what I really appreciate about you is your ability to feel the depth of all of this range of challenges and sorrow and isolation, and as you put it loneliness and boredom, that are part of our world and yet find this beautiful sunny brilliance of spirit and humor especially to share with the world as you have.
 
Sobonfu:  Thank you!  I feel the same.  I am very honored to have you and the people who are really good and sincere friends, which is something to cherish these days when you find one.  So thank you for being there with your golden and welcoming heart.

Duncan:  I agree.  When you do find a friend, and you find a friendly community it is something to be valued and cherished.  And the community that we find that we find in your books, Sobonfu, is one such friend.”

 

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STEVE MCINTOSH, FRANCES MOORE LAPPE, STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, MICHAEL MEADE, ANGELES ARRIEN AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.  All the best, Duncan.

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"Duncan you are a real national treasure, you make me smile, and I love that you ask me to be on your program...I just love how you come up with ways to tie these insights we discover together.  I don't know how you do it.  It's inspired..." – Coleman Barks

I described Part 1 (See Program 3 on this site below) of this three-part dialogue with Coleman as follows:

This three-part dialogue on The Soul of Rumi is a great embodiment of the experience and value of dialogue, showcasing Rumi's life and poetry as a perspective of timeless wisdom and inspiration.   For those unfamiliar with Rumi, the 13th century Sufi poet born in Afghanistan who lived most of his life in Turkey, this first program will be a great introduction, and a "feast" for the great many around the world already deeply appreciative of his work.  In recognition of the worldwide inspiration for communication created by Rumi in evoking the spirit and experience of unity beyond religious, cultural and ideological boundaries, UNESCO proclaimed 2007 as “The Year of Rumi”.  As noted in my prior dialogue with Larry Dossey, M.D. (See Program 2 below), Rumi has remarkably become today -- 800 years after his birth on September 30, 1207 -- simultaneously the most-listened to and revered poet in Afghanistan and the most-published poet in America.  His continually growing popularity in the U.S. is due in large part to the incomparable translations by the great American translator and poet, Coleman Barks.

This then is a link to the co-creation of a "dialogue consciousness worldview" that Living Dialogues is promoting and holding space for. 

Part 2 was described in these words:

Rumi’s poetry inspires in these dark times when we are trying to create a civilization without elders – that is to say, we are in the process of becoming elders ourselves in times of uncertainty, encountering unprecedented global conflicts and climate change. As I say in the dialogue, Rumi functions as an elder in our human journey as a species, whose words resonate down over eight centuries, across national, ethnic, religious, and language barriers, expressing the unifying essence we all share.  In the words of another eloquent member of the species, John F. Kenndy, 45 years ago this month in his historic American University speech proclaiming the world’s first nuclear disarmament initiative, in the name of creating together a planetary peace that would be beneficial for all mankind:  “For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet; we all breathe the same air; we all cherish our children’s future; and we are all mortal.”

To go forward on this great journey together, we need to develop the paradoxical consciousness which can hold our universal moral values and experience together inclusively and beyond ideology with our human diversity.  In that vein, this poem of Rumi serves as an inspiration and touchstone for the spontaneous investigations and ruminations evoked in this dialogue:

Today, like very other day, we wake up empty
and frightened.  Don’t open the door to the study
and begin reading.  Take down a musical instrument.

Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field.  I’ll meet you there.

In Part 3, Coleman and I explore a number of different aspects of the need to balance both the modern mind’s excessive emphasis on the mental, the sky (which can leave us feeling “empty and frightened” in our fragmented, specialized culture), with our indigenous heritage of appreciating the embrace of the earth -- as expressed in the open-ended conciseness of the Rumi poem quoted in the paragraph just above (ending the summary of Part 2 of this ongoing Dialogue).  We need to develop this dynamic equipoise of spirit and soul in order to develop our own elderhood, as Rumi did in his time, in order meet the challenges of the 21st century, to create not just a localized sanity, but a planetary civilization which can communicate with and within all of its component parts so we don’t self-destruct.  Here are some excerpts:

Duncan Campbell: Well it’s wonderful you know to, end, as it were, on this note of openness, that, this acceptance of the uncertainty and bewilderment again is that kind of razor’s edge of going beyond any kind of duality, you know, between confusion on the one hand and apparent but evanescent clarity on the other. That you’re somehow magically holding both poles together and honoring both and in so doing reaching a higher state of, as you put it, balance, of compassion, or love.

Coleman Barks: Hmm, right, yeah. I think that’s true, it’s a, it’s a shaky walk –laughs- that we do here with our left foot and then our right foot. We explore things in the world and then we meditate on those, and then we, as we walk, the path unfolds. Yeah.

Duncan Campbell: In a sense, you know, some have called it the wisdom of uncertainty of actually embracing the uncertainty as the deepest wisdom and walking forward confidently but not because you know where the next step is going to land.

Coleman Barks: Right. He says there is an excess in spiritual searching that is profound ignorance. And he says, “Let that ignorance be our teacher.” –laughs- you know, so it’s good to have a mystic who says let ignorance be our teacher. Yeah, he also, in terms of this balance thing, he also honors; a lot of mystics praise the sky, the openness of that. He praises the ground, as well. He says, you got to have somewhere to plant your grief seeds, you got to hoe. And he says, try to be more like the ground. The ground has a great generosity and it takes our compost and makes beauty. It takes in the rough clod, he says, and gives back an ear of corn. So try to be more like that, give back better, like the ground does.

Duncan Campbell: I remember that, yes. It was just really so striking when I read it, try to be like the ground is. Give back better than you receive, in other words, whatever seeds fall into your life of experience that you enrich and nurture them and give back beauty rather than bitter fruit or some dried husk.

And I think that’s part of the theme of the masculine and the feminine in a way, that there is traditionally that association of the masculine with the spirit or the sky and the association of the feminine with the soul or the soil. Soul and soil. Soil is mater, matrix, mother, material. Some honoring of form, honoring of incarnation, honoring of things as they are without thinking they need to be somehow transcended. Already there’s divinity in body if we could but release ourselves into it. For me that’s a constant theme with Rumi, this open ended-ness of his. I’m very moved by this. Calling us back into honoring the earth itself and honoring the ground, and to emulate it, to be like it, to have dignity and generosity and courage of receiving toxicity, and finding a way to dissolve it and giving back better than you’ve received.

. . . . . . .

Duncan Campbell: Well one of the things that Joseph Campbell said that really struck me was in one of his conversations with Fraser Boa was that when a culture arrives at the point where it emphasizes the economic and the military to the relative exclusion of other values, it’s always the sign of a late stage culture. (CB: Wow.) And when asked about this by Paul Ray (see Program 37 on this site) and Sherry Anderson, who wrote the book, The Cultural Creatives, when they talked with him oh, maybe 1982, they said: “’Well, what can we do about this Joe?’ And he said, ‘Well, you know, I can just tell you what’s happening. I can’t fix it’ and then he laughed.”  And in another, separate conversation, that Duane Elgin recounted to me that he had had with Joe Campbell in that same time period (see Programs 40, 41, and 42 on this site), Joe responded to a similar question by saying:  “Not my job.  Your job in this next generation.”  And then he laughed as well.

So, you know, Coleman,  we’re just in a stage now, where like Rome, I would say the modernist culture centered in America, the global corporatist culture has lost touch, relatively speaking, with that deep source of generativity and I think there’s no mystery in that sense why Rumi, has ironically, become the most popular published poet in America today, because there is that sort of void that’s calling to us. There’s that desire to reestablish a sense of generative balance that you talked about right at the beginning. The need is to “find the Grail” in a new contemporary co-creative and cooperative way, to once again “green the kingdom (the Planet)” from “ the wasteland” (in T.S. Eliot’s poem describing the modern world) that it is becoming.  And Rumi in his timeless poetry is calling forth this sense of generative balance from us and we’re collaborating actually with Rumi as an elder spirit of the species from hundreds of years ago. He is perhaps as present or more present today in those of us that hear his call than he was in his own community, in his own time, in the 13th century.

Coleman Barks:  Yes, and I think it’s important to take up on a point Joe Campbell was making in that quotation you cited, that we talk about poetry and even ecstatic poetry in this time, when it might seem so extraneous, because it’s important to the inner ecology. It gives the soul a place that it can enjoy living. You know, and it nourishes it. I find as I read these Rumi poems to people in these terrible times, after the 9/11 terrorist attack and before whatever the next one is, that they feel fed somehow by these poems in a way that’s important.

Duncan Campbell: I think that’s the balance that has to be struck if we’re going to go forward, it’s something that I think we can look to the experience of Rome and what happened when that balance was not struck. We may repeat that history or we may be able to go beyond it. But I think that’s what’s up, it seems to be at this point, and I think Joe Campbell really put his finger on it when he said if we lens it exclusively or preponderantly through the economic and military viewpoint – the merely measurable and mental viewpoint -- we’ve lost touch with some crucial and essential part of ourselves. So that when we talk about ecstatic poetry, the word ecstasy itself means “to stand outside of”.  To stand outside of is the literal translation of ex-stasis, so we need to train ourselves to “stand outside of” the existing either-or, polarizing paradigm and reclaim some more fundamental aspect of our universal and shared humanity which can be the bridge building that will lead beyond the impasse.

And in the end, we need to remember that Rumi exhorts us not to go to meet on a morally relativistic “field beyond wrongdoing and rightdoing”, but to meet in a “field beyond ideas [exclusivistic and polarizing, ideological and rigid] of wrongdoing and rightdoing”, a very different place of open-hearted, open-minded cross-cultural common communication, no longer clinging to our narrow idea of being the only one who is or ones who are “right”, but to learn from one another and to be in dialogue and work together.

After you listen to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STEVE MCINTOSH, FRANCES MOORE LAPPE, STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, MICHAEL MEADE, ANGELES ARRIEN AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.  All the best, Duncan.

more.

"Duncan you are a real national treasure, you make me smile, and I love that you ask me to be on your program...I just love how you come up with ways to tie these insights we discover together.  I don't know how you do it.  It's inspired..." – Coleman Barks

I described Part 1 (See Program 3 on this site below) of this three-part dialogue with Coleman as follows:

This three-part dialogue on The Soul of Rumi is a great embodiment of the experience and value of dialogue, showcasing Rumi's life and poetry as a perspective of timeless wisdom and inspiration.   For those unfamiliar with Rumi, the 13th century Sufi poet born in Afghanistan who lived most of his life in Turkey, this first program will be a great introduction, and a "feast" for the great many around the world already deeply appreciative of his work.  In recognition of the worldwide inspiration for communication created by Rumi in evoking the spirit and experience of unity beyond religious, cultural and ideological boundaries, UNESCO proclaimed 2007 as “The Year of Rumi”.  As noted in my prior dialogue with Larry Dossey, M.D. (See Program 2 below), Rumi has remarkably become today -- 800 years after his birth on September 30, 1207 -- simultaneously the most-listened to and revered poet in Afghanistan and the most-published poet in America.  His continually growing popularity in the U.S. is due in large part to the incomparable translations by the great American translator and poet, Coleman Barks.

This then is a link to the co-creation of a "dialogue consciousness worldview" that Living Dialogues is promoting and holding space for. 

In this Part 2

Rumi’s poetry inspires in these dark times when we are trying to create a civilization without elders – that is to say, we are in the process of becoming elders ourselves in times of uncertainty, encountering unprecedented global conflicts and climate change. As I say in the dialogue, Rumi functions as an elder in our human journey as a species, whose words resonate down over eight centuries, across national, ethnic, religious, and language barriers, expressing the unifying essence we all share.  In the words of another eloquent member of the species, John F. Kenndy, 45 years ago this month in his historic American University speech proclaiming the world’s first nuclear disarmament initiative, in the name of creating together a planetary peace that would be beneficial for all mankind:  “For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet; we all breathe the same air; we all cherish our children’s future; and we are all mortal.”

To go forward on this great journey together, we need to develop the paradoxical consciousness which can hold our universal moral values and experience together inclusively and beyond ideology with our human diversity.  In that vein, this poem of Rumi serves as an inspiration and touchstone for the spontaneous investigations and ruminations evoked in this dialogue:

Today, like very other day, we wake up empty
and frightened.  Don’t open the door to the study
and begin reading.  Take down a musical instrument.

Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field.  I’ll meet you there.
 

After listening to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STEVE MCINTOSH, FRANCES MOORE LAPPE, STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, MICHAEL MEADE, ANGELES ARRIEN AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.  All the best, Duncan.

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APPRECIATION:

Duncan Campbell:  I just have to say, Angeles, your book is such a treasure trove, and your whole life has been truly a gift. And I want to honor that and say again what a deep pleasure it is to have these opportunities to be together.

Angeles Arrien:  Likewise for me, Duncan, and thank you for your extraordinary contribution to radio and to media and really consistently offering a standard of excellence that's rarely found in the field.

You know that's why I also love and look forward to when we have conversations together because they're so rich in dialogue. The experience of time is that we can get a lot of information and dialogue between each other and take everyone to many different places but at the same time people say, "Oh that was so vast, and there was so much to it" or "Oh I remember this" because it also slows down. There's something in your dialogue interviews that I always experience is that there's a timeless quality about it. That the hour is over before you know it, and also that we've explored many different threads and I think that's one of the deep richnesses, that life becomes much more textured.

 

SUMMARY:

In my preceding dialogues with Michael Meade (Programs 48-51), I stated that:  “The great challenge and necessity calling each of us is to go beyond our either-or modern polarizing and myth-less argument culture into artful co-creative dialogue, to realize ourselves as bards and storytellers in our lives, embodying the personal transformational stories which together can weave the next evolutionary Great Story of unification in diversity so needed in our time…Finding the thread that weaves all of the pieces of our personal stories into resonance with a new-old archetypal and universal Larger Story, we can become the “missing piece” of our adolescent cultures:  the new elders, giving birth to an elderhood of service at all ages, including the wisdom of the “youth elders” as well as those chronologically older, each engaged in a dialogue of mutual mentoring.

In this dialogue with Angeles Arrien -- in my view the preeminent visionary cross-cultural anthropologist for the 21st century -- we talk further about how to create what I am calling “new evolutionary elders”.  It is not simply about being or becoming chronologically older – then one is only an “older” person, not an elder.  As Angeles points out in the “sixth gate” of the eight cross-cultural gates we cross on the path into wisdom, we need to avoid or leave behind the ethical compromises seen so often in middle-age, where we are seduced by circumstances and the competitive culture to adopt an ends justifies the means approach to career and economic advancement and identity.  Our media reflects, tolerates, encourages, and rewards such behavior.

The elder perspective, by contrast, embodies the wisdom of authenticity, integrity, and honesty with oneself – which becomes a paramount aspect of self-fulfillment -- and supports and gives strong, clear voice to these values in the larger world.  Interestingly enough, these same values are also sought by idealistic youth.  Both older and younger people are marginalized as less interesting to the consumer-driven culture than those in-between that spend the most money.  As such, youth historically have taken little interest in society’s political dialogue, with its obvious deceit and self-interested rhetoric posing as representing the common good, and older people are encouraged effectively to see themselves as a passive and fearful “victim” constituency and narrow interest group that cannot stand up for itself except through allegiance to such middle-aged power brokers.

As has been said, we cannot create a wisdom culture without genuine elders, speaking with respect and authority and real influence in society.  For that gap to be filled, we need to become those elders ourselves.   How to do so in very practical ways, whatever your age, drawing on both ancient and contemporary experience, is the topic of this dialogue.

Here’s an excerpt from the beginning of this Dialogue:

Duncan Campbell:  Welcome to the program. I'm your host Duncan Campbell, and my guest today is my great friend, Angeles Arrien, author of numerous books, and one of the great leading cross-cultural anthropologists in the world. And the book we're going to be talking about is The Second Half of Life: Opening the Eight Gates of Wisdom. So, Angie, what a treat it is to have you here on the program.

Angeles Arrien: My honor and privilege Duncan. Thank you so much.

Duncan Campbell: So Angie, there are many things that could be said about you, you have such an accomplished life - your first half of life and your second half of life. I just want to give people some highlights here: that you are an anthropologist, an educator, and award-winning author; you're a consultant to many organizations and businesses including the Fetzer Institute. You lecture nationally and internationally and conduct workshops that bridge cultural anthropology, psychology, and meditation skills; requests for your expertise have taken you to Bali, China, Indonesia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Spain, Denmark, Czechoslovakia, now the Czech Republic, Germany, Ireland, South Africa, Canada, and beyond. Your work with multicultural issues in mediation and conflict resolution has been used with the International Rights Commission and the World Indigenous Council. And you've also presented your material on CNN and other media in the mainstream culture. And I have to say since we first met twenty years ago, you have been just a real great friend and teacher and I must say that you're very well loved by the people in the communities that you work in with very good reason because your personal qualities and your abilities to teach from the heart and your vast reservoir of knowledge and very original insights I think just put you in a realm that is so enticing for people to share with you. So I want to begin just by acknowledging that, Angie, and saying what a treat it really always is to have these conversations together.

Angeles Arrien: For me too Duncan it's been wonderful to come in today for this interview because I too have really enjoyed watching the unfoldment of your own career and gifts and talents. And you're just exceptional in your interview capacity and what you have to offer for the radio audiences. It's really high quality and for me I see it as such an honor to be able to come on to your program.

Duncan Campbell: And we should let people know that one of the great inspirations that came to me just before I met you was that it was time in human consciousness to move, we might say, into the second half of life of the planetary species all together. That it was time to move not only beyond our adolescence but even beyond early maturity as a species into a kind of elderhood where we could create a real world wisdom culture. And to do that it was shown to me that we needed to go beyond what you and I have referred to in the old terminology as the “interview” (vs. dialogue) culture, where as with Moses on the mountain a given individual goes up to the metaphorical mountain and connects with God, Ccreator, Spirit, the Logos, whatever we might call it, and gets the direct interview download and comes back, comes back down the mountain and essentially distributes or franchises the material to a willing but not adventuresome audience.

And so that's where, really, the planet has come to and it's time as we see in the last twenty years, at the cusp of this millennium, where people are now realizing that the ability for them and us, each of us, to find purpose, meaning, and fulfillment in the internal mythology of our own lives and to tap into our own inner wisdom is what makes an elder and an elder culture. Not just simply growing older. And this is a critical insight I think.

And an insight in your book because we're now realizing that to go forward, we have to have a series of real dialogues, like you and I are having right now, and those dialogues could be elder to elder, they could be elder to youth, between men and women, between generations, between ethnicities, between cultures, all over the world. It's time for everyone to give their gift to the fire together. And the people who are going to hold the space for that are going to be people who have explored, encountered, and embodied  the riches of the second half of life.

Interestingly enough, in our adolescent culture, in our consumer oriented culture where the people who consume the most are the ones that the culture targets most of its media toward, this effectively pushes people in the second half of life to the margins. When they're on the margins as James Hillman pointed out, they can be very reflective and notice the lack of aesthetic beauty in the culture. They also can have a great resource of, we might say, wisdom, accumulated experience, and perception and the key is for them to not allow themselves to be marginalized in the negative sense and disconnected from the larger culture but to discover, as you put it, that this is the actual richest part of one's life, where you really come to your own true authenticity and fulfillment.

So I'm giving that introduction to say how unique your book is in my view. Because there is a lot of literature out there where people are wanting to say, well it's ok to get older, but often don’t believe it, or don’t say so persuasively.  I just saw Cher the other day while happening to watch Oprah, and Tina Turner, one of the great entertainment idols, you might say, was on with her. Tina was saying she was really grooving on getting older, and Cher was saying what a drag it was. And it was just so interesting because those are two different aspects of how we can look at getting older. Nora Ephron, to take another example, has a new book out: I Feel Bad About My Neck.

Angeles Arrien: Yes.

Duncan Campbell: She says with her New York humor: “It's kind of sad to be over sixty.” So we have this culture where we try to make fun of and make an accommodation of getting older -- but why don't you dive in right now and just tell us why, in your own experience, and in your beautiful book, you feel the second half of life is really the fulfillment for each of us on our life journey.

Angeles Arrien: Like a three act play, the first act is really the beginning of our life and as we move into young adulthood, and the second half is like a young adulthood through the fifties. And who would want to miss the third act? Because the third act is really from our sixties to the end of life. The third act like in every play brings extraordinary resolution and harvest and we have the ability to create and tie up all of the different characters, and themes, and maybe our life will turn out to be a comedy or history, a fantastic novella, but that's the opportunity, in the second half of life, that's so rich and textured from our fifties on there's a huge shift in ambition to meaning from acquisition to divestiture, from doing to being, from work to service, from Me to We, and wisdom is never age bound. There are many people in their twenties and their thirties and their forties and their teens and their fifties who are quite wise. After fifty, if we're not demonstrating some kind of wisdom, it's less than becoming.

Duncan Campbell: [laughter] Yes, pun intended.

 

After listening to this Dialogue, I invite you to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, MICHAEL MEADE AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.  All the best, Duncan.

more.

Appreciation:  “I’m Michael Meade, the author of The Water of Life and The World Behind the World, and I can say this about Living Dialogues:  It is one of the few places in this country where you can hear an intelligent, poetic conversation that brings together myth, genuine imagination, the extemporaneous poetic thought natural to people, and the practical issues of the environment and politics – a mixture that is necessary for the re-imagination of this culture.  Thank you Duncan for the invitation and the delightful conversation.”

In Part 1 of this ongoing dialogue, Michael Meade and I shared stories and perspectives on the nature and role of myth throughout the human experience, and in so doing demonstrated how we enact and give voice to a fresh contemporary story, together with you, the deep listening audience evoking the new story, as part of our larger mythic interconnectedness.  The great challenge and necessity calling each of us is to go beyond our either-or modern polarization and mythless argument culture into artful co-creative dialogue, to realize ourselves as bards and storytellers in our lives, embodying the personal transformational stories which together can weave the next evolutionary Great Story of unification in diversity so needed in our time.

In Part 2, we shared how stories -- telling them, listening attentively to them, learning thereby to see the individual story of our own lives as embodying and resonating with the purpose and mythic meaning illustrated in a Great Story – how all these aspects of story give us knowledge, healing, inspiration, and initiation into a higher life-enhancing and embracing consciousness.  We share certain ancient and modern great stories in illustration of this, including the meeting by the well of the 13th century world poet Rumi and his dialogue inspiration Shams Tabriz (see Program 3 with Coleman Barks on The Soul of Rumi below on this site), the Divine Dialogue between the big Self Krishna and the aspirant Arjuna of the Vedic Bhagavad Gita, the Song of God, from thousands of years ago, the prophetic poetry of William Butler Yeats (The Second Coming) in the early 20th century, and the anonymous pre-Christian poet(s) who gave us the biblical Book of Job (in the superb translation by Stephen Mitchell – see Programs 13 and 14 below on this site).

In Part 3, Michael and I went into the nature of story as accessing the deep Source we all share, and in the process finding the thread of deep meaning and purpose that runs through each of our lives.  It is in this way, finding the thread that weaves all of the pieces of our personal stories into resonance with a Larger Story, that we can become the “missing piece” of our adolescent cultures:  the new elders, giving birth to an elderhood of service at all ages, including the wisdom of the “youth elders” as well as those chronologically older, each engaged in a dialogue of mutual mentoring.

As I say at the beginning of Part 2: “The power in storytelling is the power in helping people to understand how to situate themselves in a world that at times for many people anywhere can seem chaotic and without meaning when we experience ourselves as powerless to change the great course of events that affects us all.”  Michael describes the challenge we then address as follows:  “On the national and on the global stage, it seems to me, things have become more and more literal, less and less imaginal or mythic.  Therefore, more and more rigidly polarized people tend to cling now to ideas that don’t hold water, and people tend to cling to beliefs that no longer transfer the living breath of the living waters of the divine or the eternal.  So while holding on to these almost empty institutions and empty thought patterns, people then use them as weapons and attack each other.”

Our response to this challenge is an expression of what I term “The Art and Evolutionary Necessity of Dialogic Mythmaking”.  As I say in concluding Part 3, “this call to dialogue that has become so imperative right now is the same as the call to the deep story and the sharing of stories”.

In this concluding Part 4, we dialogue about how the modern mind paradigm and its “mid-level” national myths (including America’s dominance in the late 20th century, often dubbed “the American century”) are losing their energy and no longer have the hold on the planetary imagination they once did.  This is the arena of what Michael refers to as the “mesocosm” – that place of conflicting cultural and religious myths which lies between the universal Great Stories of the planet, the macrocosm we spoke about in Part 2, and our individual microcosm stories, which we sometimes experience as unraveling to the extent we fail to explore our inner world sufficiently to see them as linked to the Great Stories, but rather identify with our own culture or religion’s limited surface mesocosm stories (which are themselves unraveling as we enter the 21st century).  [For instance, as Fareed Zakaria points out in his new book The Post American Century, India, starting basically from scratch just a few years ago, now has 18 of its own TV news channels, each of which revolves around a narrative with India at the center, no longer dependent on the America-centric narrative of the 20th century and CNN.  Yet the new India-centric narrative is still at this point a 20th century holdover to the extent it remains nation-centric rather than world-centric.]

To participate in the dialogic co-creating of a genuinely r-evolutionary New-Old planetary-scale and sustainable Mythos, we each need to catch hold of the thread of our own deep story as our mesocsom “gets messy and comes apart”.  This messiness is at once the necessary prelude to a genuine re-imagination of our culture and the falling apart predicted in the prophetic vision of W.B.Yeats in The Second Coming mentioned earlier, “where the center cannot hold” and the desert landscape of our old polarized politics gives rise to negative and mendacious campaigning and governance “with its gaze pitiless as the sun”.  As this “beast slouches toward Bethlehem to be born” once again in yet another election cycle, we are in a potentially “tipping point” historic moment, where if we each take our own story thread to the frontier depths of our integrity and return to the center to reweave together a “protective mythic garment” as in the completion of the old Irish myth -- but this time as a “coat of many colors” -- a renewal in the U.S. of the original real dream of America, in its authenticity, character, and wisdom, can occur.  (See Programs 38 and 39 with myself and Joseph Ellis, the “Founders’ historian”, below on this site.)
 
We are being called upon to hear, live, and tell stories of rejuvenation from our own experience, as is being done out of the view of commercial media in the vital energy margins in many ways, including by people doing hospice work, working with poverty and illness, doing personal depth processing, psychological and spiritual, and as is being done in the public realm by Barack Obama and supporters, co-creating, enacting, and telling a story of hope and possibility that resonates with this land and all lands because it is both new and ancient, a story as I say “which refuses to give in to the lie for personal advantage but actually endorses the truth of our deep reality”.

Here is an excerpt from this Dialogue Part 4:

Duncan Campbell: …There's a lot of racial talk going on (in the U.S. election story of 2008) that’s disguised and it's very debilitating because we have to encounter that old story of America, which is the slavery story and really purge it, I think, considerably more, and ultimately, once and for all, to free the psyche of the country to really live out its great destiny. As I have talked with you previously, the depth psychology of Jung gives a real insight here, that if we don’t bring up from the unconscious these old stories that are influencing us without our knowing it, they will be our fate rather than our destiny.

One of the great contributions you’ve made, Michael, is by collecting all these stories from around the world in your two books and showing us the power of story. You show us both how unconscious stories can be directing us toward ends that are less beneficial for our individual lives and our culture, and by encountering them, by going directly into them, by running towards the roar, by going into the field, going into that unsettledness – “running towards the roar “, your beautiful image presented at the beginning of The World Behind The World -- we can actually encounter and live out the deeper story for the benefit of all.

Michael Meade: Yes, I couldn’t agree more. The destined leaders need to run towards the roar at the right moment and people will follow and safety is found on the other side of the darkness, not in running towards the light.

Duncan Campbell: So tell the short story, Running Towards the Roar, it's an old African story.

 

To hear Michael tell the story, you’ll have to listen to Part 4 of our dialogue.

I conclude this dialogue with Michael by coming back to the deep story themes which I describe are “the very warp and woof of what we do here on Living Dialogues”, some pertinent examples of which were previewed in Programs 38 and 39 below and in the three previous parts of this dialogue (Programs 48, 49, and 50), and will be seen in next week’s Program 52 with Angeles Arrien, the leading cross-cultural anthropologist of our time, with Episcopal priest become shaman Peter Calhoun in Programs 53 and 54, and with renowned African teacher Sobonfu Some, visionary James Redfield, and others in subsequent dialogues.
 
Be sure to listen to the other Parts of this Dialogue – and, also, to both explore and make possible further interesting material on Living Dialogues by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description, and by taking less than 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.  All the best, Duncan.

more.

Appreciation:  “I’m Michael Meade, the author of The Water of Life and The World Behind the World, and I can say this about Living Dialogues:  It is one of the few places in this country where you can hear an intelligent, poetic conversation that brings together myth, genuine imagination, the extemporaneous poetic thought natural to people, and the practical issues of the environment and politics – a mixture that is necessary for the re-imagination of this culture.  Thank you Duncan for the invitation and the delightful conversation.”

In Part 1 of this ongoing dialogue, Michael Meade and I shared stories and perspectives on the nature and role of myth throughout the human experience, and in so doing demonstrated how we enact and give voice to a fresh contemporary story, together with you, the deep listening audience evoking the new story, as part of our larger mythic interconnectedness.  The great challenge and necessity calling each of us is to go beyond our either-or modern polarization and mythless argument culture into artful co-creative dialogue, to realize ourselves as bards and storytellers in our lives, embodying the personal transformational stories which together can weave the next evolutionary Great Story of unification in diversity so needed in our time.

In this Part 2, we share how stories -- telling them, listening attentively to them, learning thereby to see the individual story of our own lives as embodying and resonating with the purpose and mythic meaning illustrated in a Great Story – how all these aspects of story give us knowledge, healing, inspiration, and initiation into a higher life-enchancing and embracing consciousness.  We share certain ancient and modern great stories in illustration of this, including the meeting by the well of the 13th century world poet Rumi and his dialogue inspiration Shams Tabriz (see Program 3 with Coleman Barks on The Soul of Rumi below on this site), the Divine Dialogue between the big Self Krishna and the aspirant Arjuna of the Vedic Bhagavad Gita, the Song of God, from thousands of years ago, the prophetic poetry of William Butler Years (The Second Coming) in the early 20th century, and the anonymous pre-Christian poet(s) who gave us the biblical Book of Job (in the superb translation by Stephen Mitchell – see Programs 13 and 14 below on this site).

In this Part 3, Michael and I go into the nature of story as accessing the deep Source we all share, and in the process finding the thread of deep meaning and purpose that runs through each of our lives.  It is in this way, finding the thread that weaves all of the pieces of our personal stories into resonance with a Larger Story, that we can become the “missing piece” of our adolescent cultures:  the new elders, giving birth to an elderhood of service at all ages, including the wisdom of the “youth elders” as well as those chronologically older, each engaged in a dialogue of mutual mentoring.

As I say at the beginning of Part 2: “The power in storytelling is the power in helping people to understand how to situate themselves in a world that, at times for many people anywhere, can seem chaotic and without meaning when we experience ourselves as powerless to change the great course of events that affects us all.”  Michael describes the challenge we then address in this dialogue as follows:  “On the national and on the global stage, it seems to me, things have become more and more literal, less and less imaginal or mythic.  Therefore, more and more rigidly polarized people tend to cling now to ideas that don’t hold water and people tend to cling to beliefs that no longer transfer the living breath of the living waters of the divine or the eternal.  So while holding on to these almost empty institutions and empty thought patterns, people then use them as weapons and attack each other.”

Our response to this challenge is an expression of what I term “The Art and Evolutionary Necessity of Dialogic Mythmaking”.  As I say in concluding Part 3, “this call to dialogue that has become so imperative right now is the same as the call to the deep story and the sharing of stories”.
 
Be sure to listen to the other Parts of this Dialogue, listed separately on this site in sequence -- and to both explore and make possible further interesting material by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description column, and by taking 5 minutes to click on and fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan.

more.

Appreciation:  “I’m Michael Meade, the author of The Water of Life and The World Behind the World, and I can say this about Living Dialogues with Duncan Campbell:  It is one of the few places in this country where you can hear an intelligent, poetic conversation that brings together myth, genuine imagination, the extemporaneous poetic thought natural to people, and the practical issues of the environment and politics – a mixture that is necessary for the re-imagination of this culture.  Thank you Duncan for the invitation and the delightful conversation.”

In Part 1 of this ongoing dialogue, Michael Meade and I shared stories and perspectives on the nature and role of myth throughout the human experience, and in so doing demonstrated how we enact and give voice to a fresh contemporary story, together with you, the deep listening audience evoking the new story, as part of our larger mythic interconnectedness.  The great challenge and necessity calling each of us is to go beyond our either-or modern polarization and mythless argument culture into artful co-creative dialogue, to realize ourselves as bards and storytellers in our lives, embodying the personal transformational stories which together can weave the next evolutionary Great Story of unification in diversity so needed in our time.

In this Part 2, we share how stories -- telling them, listening attentively to them, learning thereby to see the individual story of our own lives as embodying and resonating with the purpose and mythic meaning illustrated in a Great Story – how all these aspects of story give us knowledge, healing, inspiration, and initiation into a higher life-enchancing and embracing consciousness.  We share certain ancient and modern great stories in illustration of this, including the meeting by the well of the 13th century world poet Rumi and his dialogue inspiration Shams Tabriz (see Program 3 with Coleman Barks on The Soul of Rumi below on this site), the Divine Dialogue between the big Self Krishna and the aspirant Arjuna of the Vedic Bhagavad Gita, the Song of God, from thousands of years ago, the prophetic poetry of William Butler Years (The Second Coming) in the early 20th century, and the anonymous pre-Christian poet(s) who gave us the biblical Book of Job (in the superb translation by Stephen Mitchell – see Programs 13 and 14 below on this site). 

As I say at the beginning of this Part 2: “The power in storytelling is the power in helping people to understand how to situate themselves in a world that, at times for many people anywhere, can seem chaotic and without meaning when we experience ourselves as powerless to change the great course of events that affects us all.”  Michael describes the challenge we then address in this dialogue as follows:  “On the national and on the global stage, it seems to me, things have become more and more literal, less and less imaginal or mythic.  Therefore, more and more rigidly polarized people tend to cling now to ideas that don’t hold water and people tend to cling to beliefs that no longer transfer the living breath of the living waters of the divine or the eternal.  So while holding on to these almost empty institutions and empty thought patterns, people then use them as weapons and attack each other.”

Our response to this challenge is an expression of what I term “The Art and Evolutionary Necessity of Dialogic Mythmaking”.

Be sure to listen to the other Parts of this Dialogue, listed separately on this site in sequence -- and to both explore and make possible further interesting material by clicking on the Episode Detail button at the top left of this program description column, and by taking 5 minutes to click on and  fill out the Listener Survey there (or click on the Listener Survey icon to the left of this column).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is throughmy website: www.livingdialogues.com.  Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

more.

In this Part 1, Michael Meade and I share stories and perspectives on the nature and role of myth throughout the human experience, and in so doing enact and give voice to a fresh contemporary story, together with you, the deep listening audience evoking the new story, as part of our larger mythic interconnectedness.  The great challenge and necessity calling each of us is to go beyond our either-or modern polarization and mythless argument culture into artful co-creative dialogue, to realize ourselves as bards and storytellers in our lives, embodying the personal transformational stories which together can weave the next evolutionary Great Story of unification in diversity so needed in our time.

Here are some excerpts:

Michael Meade:  Well, I think the Greek word for myth is M U T H O S, muthos, and there’s lots of meanings to it but one way to look at it is it’s the story and then the other, it’s the story when its being told so that people often separate myth and ritual but the telling of the story is the mythic ritual because when its told, people have to open their entire set of ears all the way inside to hear a story, and when people are listening to a story, you can tell it when you see the rapt attention of an audience.

The listeners have become momentarily whole, because you listen to a story with your whole self, your whole history and your whole imagination and your whole kind of purpose in life to tell you the truth and that’s one reason why people need stories so badly and why a culture suffers when there isn’t a shared kind of over-arching myth.

Duncan Campbell:  Absolutely, and what I am thinking about, there are two or three things as you begin these opening verses, if you will, from this particular story as Homer says in the beginning, ‘Sing to me of the man’ when he is talking about Odysseus and so we’re doing that now in this very dialogue and it recalls me to the feminine version of that of course, one of them, would be Sheherazade ( ‘She-her-azade’)…

Michael Meade:  Exactly…

Duncan Campbell:  …Who literally kept the king entranced and enchanted for 1001 nights in order to spare her own life and in the process transformed the kingdom.  And here I am thinking also of this sense of listening, deep listening where people are, as you say, listening with their whole selves, they become literally enchanted in the sense of entrained into a deeper and at the same time a higher kind of awareness of who they really are, simultaneously above and below the subconscious gossip or the story our intellectual mind might tell us about who we are, and at the same time creating a resonance with the collective, with the whole, and ultimately with all of humanity and for that matter, all of history and all beings that exist, in fact all that is.  That is dialogic mythmaking.

Michael Meade:  Yeah, a person has to meet the myth with their own story, which, with their own life and so in essence, it’s a full engagement and the old idea was that to be part of the living myth, the telling of the myth and the entering into it fully is by definition and active healing and an initiatory event.

So that when the stories were told, people would actually be entering it in order to change their lives and in that sense, yes, it affects everybody because when someone changes at a deep level it affects essentially everyone there related to and on from there.

……

Duncan Campbell:  That seems to be one way of looking at our modern mind dilemma and how it is reflected in the world where from my point of view for instance, I see modern culture altogether as being in an adolescent phase of development and perhaps the industrialized countries of the West, we could say are latter stage adolescent and the ethnic Muslim extremists that they are in great warfare with are perhaps an earlier stage of adolescence in a linear way of looking at it, but it does seem almost like gang warfare, the very kind of thing that you encountered at the age of 13 and both sides are awaiting the proclamation or the singing or the telling of a great unifying story that can touch the hearts of people of all genders and all nationalities to provide a way out of this kind of adolescent warfare.

Be sure to listen in to Parts 2 and 3 of this Dialogue, which will take up where this one left off.

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WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

The best way to reach me is through my website: www.livingdialogues.com.  If you wish you can in addition try me at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

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Duncan Campbell: Rick, I just want to thank you for these two great masterworks,  The Passion of the Western Mind and Cosmos and Psyche, and all the gifts that are given in them, and for the perseverance and the great patience, openheartedness and open-mindedness that you describe on your own journey you had to develop, from your initial education as an intellectual and one who is well-educated in the modern mind, to open up to these insights. It’s been a great journey. It’s a great journey to take with you when we read these books, and it’s a great pleasure to spend this time together and to have you as a personal friend.
 
Rick Tarnas:  Duncan, it’s always a pleasure to talk with you.  Your knowledge of the fields we cover always makes the dialogue just flow so beautifully.  And also, there’s something about the very nature of a dialogue as you do it, that is a kind of parallel to the whole attitude towards life and towards the cosmos that I think certainly my book is trying to support.  And I think our whole spiritual challenge of our civilization at this time is, as you say, to move into a more dialogic mode – with each other, with other cultures, between male and female, between generations, and between humanity and other forms of life, and with the cosmos itself.  So, in a sense, I think maybe what we’re doing here as a personal dialogue, and that you do with so many people who visit here in Boulder with you, is a kind of microcosm of this larger dialogical imperative really, that calls us in our time.

Duncan:  Well, thank you so much, Rick.  It is really a wonderful opportunity to celebrate all of us together with all of our deep listeners in an alive universe, and in a cosmos full of beauty and wonder and possibility.

This Part 3 of my dialogues with Richard Tarnas (Scroll down to hear prior Programs 31 and 32 on this Site) is itself a kind of prequel, as is Rick’s prior book The Passion of the Western Mind, to his later work Cosmos and Psyche, which we discuss in Programs 31 and 32 below.  In this Program 47, I start with a detailed introduction that summarizes from the perspective of the Living Dialogues’ theme and viewpoint what Rick calls “participatory epistemology” and I call “participatory dialogue”. 

In this dialogue we further illuminate the critical importance and history of the emergence of the modern mind with its stress on empowering the individual sense of self, following the indigenous emphasis on the collective, in allowing us to now be able to transcend and include the essence of these prior perspectives in a new “both-and” third consciousness.  This new consciousness is further emerging and blooming in the 21st century beyond the late 20th century ‘post-modern’ bridge phase of the modern mind (what Rick refers to as an “era between eras”). 

This third consciousness is both brought about and characterized by dialogue and co-creative participation with the universal consciousness in both its material and subtle energy manifestations.  (“Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation” is a trademark phrase of Living Dialogues.)  It is from this perspective that we can appreciate the great contribution Rick Tarnas has made in Cosmos and Psyche, showing how a contemporary deep and expanded ‘archetypal’ astrology can be supremely relevant to all aspects of our personal and public lives, helping to revivify the unifying worldview aspect of the ancient understanding of “as above, so below” on a planetary scale, threading through the work of modern depth psychology from Freud through C.G. Jung, James Hillman, Stanislav Grof and others in the fields of philosophy, science, spirituality, and cultural transformation.

And be sure to listen to next week’s Living Dialogue Program 48 with myself and Michael Meade, when we will explore the role of myth through the ages from indigenous mind through the modern mind and into the newly emerging ‘third consicousness’ (sometimes called ‘noetic’, ‘supramental’, ‘integral’, etc.).  These themes are the thread running throughout the vision and practice embodied in all Living Dialogues.  All other programs in this series will be of interest on these themes, but particular ones you might wish to click onto listed on the right hand column next to this Program 47 are those with Richard Tarnas (31 and 32), Rupert Sheldrake (6 and 8), Steve McIntosh (25 and 26), Michael Dowd (28), Vine DeLoria, Jr. (29), Stanislav Grof (30), Paul Ray (37), Duane Elgin (40, 41, and 42), and Lynne McTaggart (43 and 44).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART, ECKHART TOLLE,  AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

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One of the signature trademark expressions of Living Dialogues is:  “Global Talk Unites Us.”  These two dialogues between myself and Eckhart can also serve as an illuminating and deepening complement to the unprecedented interactive live webcast inaugurated and conducted by Oprah and Eckhart for 10 weeks from the beginning of March to the beginning of May 2008, with over 11 million people coming together each week online “to the same place – with the same purpose – to create a new earth”.  (See www.oprah.com to participate live during that timeframe or listen anytime to those archived programs.)

In commenting on Eckhart Tolle’s contributions to our ongoing planetary dialogue addressing the big questions Who Are We?  Where Do We Come From? Why Are We Here? And Where Are We Going? in the “great big classroom community around the world that we are participating in in this live webcast”, Oprah described The Power of Now and A New Earth as “not, let me repeat, not, a new religion or a new doctrine, but really an invitation for you to connect to your authentic self, and to connect to your spirit, to your soul, to our inner being, to your consciousness, whichever word you want to use.”

Here is an excerpt from this Dialogue Program 46, in which Eckhart and I explore further the personal and collective “pain body” and how consciousness plays “hide and seek” in form until we come to the realization that we are not the form in which awareness is embodied, but in our essence we are the awareness itself.  This realization arises from an appreciation of the historical evolution of our species and of our own life’s unqiue progression.  This awakening moves us from depression or even despair in the face of suffering and feeling separate and isolated to an appreciation of these feelings as a necessary initiation into a mature sense of conscious unity: that “out of the many we are one”, even as we come to accept and celebrate our unique being and the diversity of all other persons and manifestations in nature and in the cosmos.

In the face of the declaration “Humanity is faced with a stark choice:  Evolve or Die”, we have a choice, and together we can create a New Earth:

“Duncan Campbell: I'm thinking of it, also from the evolutionary perspective, we started this particular Dialogue talking about Joseph Campbell’s perception that the way of the Sharman that began 40,000 years ago was perhaps the first example in the development of the human species where the collective mind began to move away from its embededness and unity and in nature and the individual experience of the path of suffering and separation began to be seen as a vehicle of transformation.

In here, I'm thinking, that when we talk about pain and suffering, it's not as if we made a mistake or there was anything wrong with the development of this egoic separation. It has been a part of this vast evolution of consciousness coming to know itself, moving into self-awareness and this painful birthing process of losing the unconscious embedded sense of unity in order to create a sense of separate--almost like an adolescent moving away from the matrix or from childhood.

Now, the species itself being challenged to either move beyond the space of separation and move into a deep maturity and co-creative bringing together of all of these experiences or as one person put it, “Committing teenage suicide.”

Eckhart Tolle: Yes.

Duncan Campbell: It's very similar at the species level to teenage suicide where the sense of isolation or not being understood, not crossing the threshold into another layer or adulthood or maturity seems so intimidating that one actually commits suicide.

Eckhart Tolle: Yes. So there's no absolute guarantee which way it will go, but the fact that we are sitting here, talking about this, the listeners are sitting somewhere else listening to this should help us to see that actually it's arising at this moment. It's not that let's hope that the new consciousness is going to rise on the planet before the old consciousness, so to speak, has destroyed it completely. The new is already arising at this very moment and so I am quite optimistic more than perhaps once before about the humanity’s possibility of surviving and go beyond this particular evolutionary stage into liberation.

Liberation, has until now, been an isolated phenomenon. Liberation from egoic mind. Liberation from thought has been an isolated phenomenon. Only a few individuals here and there became free because it was never a necessity on the planet. I call them the first flowerings of human consciousness, those few individuals the Buddha and some others that perhaps we haven’t heard of. In those, the flowering happened and those were the first flowers, the early flowers.

I was told by somebody who studied the evolution of the evolution of the planet that before any flowers appeared on the planet, the planet was already covered in plant life for millions of years. Plants were everywhere but not a single flower had opened yet. So one good site to use this analogy that the flower represents a new evolutionary level in the life of plants.

There must have been a day on the life on this planet when the sun rose one morning and suddenly, the first flower opened. Maybe it didn’t survive for very long. Perhaps, a few thousand years later, two flowers opened and a few more and suddenly, a point was reached when flowers opened all over the planet.

I believe humanity has reached that point now where enlightenment, liberation, whatever you want to call it, is not a luxury anymore. It's happening now on a larger scale because if it doesn’t happen, the species will not survive humanity. Often, transitions, evolutionary leaps, evolutionary transformation happens only through necessity when there's no other choice but to evolve.

You can see this in your own personal life. You can't stand it anymore. Life becomes so dysfunctional with this self-created pain that now, you have to evolve or die. That is the point that we have reached now, that humanity has reached now. Another hundred years of the old egoic consciousness that has created the history of the 20th century which is mad, the planet will not be able to survive another 100 years of that madness.”

And be sure to listen to next week’s Living Dialogue Program 47 with myself and Richard Tarnas: Initiating a New World View Through Dialogue, when we go into further rich exploration of the above subjects.  These themes are the thread running throughout the vision and practice embodied in all Living Dialogues.  All other programs in this series will be of interest on these themes, but particular ones you might wish to click onto listed on the right hand column next to the programs with Eckhart Tolle are those with Byron Katie and Stephen Mitchell, Gangaji, Joseph Chilton Pearce, Rupert Sheldrake, Steve McIntosh, and Stanislav Grof.

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, BYRON KATIE AND STEPHEN MITCHELL, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

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Included in the beginning of the biographical sketch of Eckhart Tolle (click on Episode Detail on the upper left of this introductory summary) is the following sentence:  “Eckhart Tolle is the author of the #1 New York Times bestseller, The Power of Now (translated into 33 languages) and the highly acclaimed follow-up A New Earth, which are widely regarded as two of the most influential spiritual books of our time.”

Consistent with the evolutionary perspective and thematic thread of all my Living Dialogues -- that we are now embarked in a planetary quantum leap of consciousness, a new great awakening beyond both religious or secular scientism dogma -- my two-part dialogue with Eckhart explores the connection between our personal search for true happiness and the cessation of proliferating suffering and violent conflicts worldwide.

The kind of world that will be brought about in the 21st century is directly linked to the quality of worldviews and manner and content of communication that we bring to our personal and collective relating.  We are developing with one another a new vision – a co-creative and participatory cosmology -- bringing the best of our ancient and modern heritage together in a journey characterized, using Martin Buber’s phrase, by the transition from an “I-It” to an I-Thou” mutually respectful and creative relationship with all that is.

One of the signature trademark expressions of Living Dialogues is:  “Global Talk Unites Us.”  These two dialogues between myself and Eckhart can also serve as an illuminating and deepening complement to the unprecedented interactive live webcast inaugurated and conducted by Oprah and Eckhart for 10 weeks from the beginning of March to the beginning of May 2008, with over 11 million people coming together each week online “to the same place – with the same purpose – to create a new earth”.  (See www.oprah.com to participate live during that timeframe or listen anytime to those archived programs.)

Here is an excerpt from this dialogue Program 45, in which Eckhart and I explore the origin of suffering, the path to real happiness in the present and not some anticipated future, and the nature of our human heritage and possibility from an evolutionary perspective, relating to what Eckhart terms the personal and collective “pain body”:

“Duncan Campbell:  The fascinating thing about this archetypal journey [to an enduring presence of happiness, equanimity] in how you explain this from your own personal experience is that the path to the present and the path away from the future is often, perhaps for most, if not all of us, through pain, through suffering. I recall, a great Buddhist teacher once being asked by a student, “Why did the Buddha call the First Noble Truth the ‘Truth of Suffering’? Why is it noble?”

He replied, “Because without it, there's no doorway into liberation from the imprisonment of ego.” That’s why the First Noble Truth [of the Four Noble Truths used by the Buddha to describe his own experience of “awakening”] is called “suffering”. The Second Noble Truth is discovering the source of suffering: the desire and attachment, not desire by itself, but desire and attachment. Then the Third Noble Truth being the possibility of liberation and the Fourth being meditation or the practice to achieve liberation.

What I'm thinking of now is a poem recently translated by Coleman Barks of the great Persian poet Rumi, talking about the role of grief. He says, and this is Rumi from the 13th century: “I have broken through to longing now, filled with the grief I have felt before but never like this. The center leads to love so opens to creation’s core. Hold on to your particular pain. That, too, can take you to God.” (See also Program 3 on this Living Dialogues site with Coleman Barks on The Soul of Rumi.)

“Hold on to your particular pain. That, too, can take you to God.” I have the sense that many people are going through this particular longing and grieving that may be familiar but it adds a new level of intensity. As you've described it, it is also the suffering and frustration of people in many countries around the world who have perhaps been many years on the so called “spiritual search” and experienced a new kind of hopelessness, a level of despair that they’ve not experienced before.

This may be the doorway to a collective awakening as you suggest in your book. This is not an isolated experience but what I call an emerging democratization of the mystical experience that traditionally has been seen as isolated in only a few people in different traditions such as Rumi in the Sufi Tradition, such as Jesus, such as Buddha, such as Meister Eckhart in the Christian tradition and so on. But now, there seems to be a very wide experience of this and as a result, I'd like you to talk a little bit more about what you mean by the pain body.

Again, as you put it, because you yourself had a particularly heavy karmic pain body, your personal pain was particularly heavy; it literally drove you  “out of your [thinking, self-referential] mind”. You talk about the pain body not as an individual experience only but as a kind of collective experience. So perhaps we could spend our time for the remainder of this first Dialogue talking about the pain body, and how our individual and collective experience are merging and mutually informing.

Eckhart Tolle: What I call “pain body”, of course, like everything else, in this particular language of mine is one perspective on something among other perspectives. So nothing that we speak about is the ultimate truth, whatever language expresses is always a relative truth. Knowing that, we can talk about this particular perspective that I have on human pain. What I call pain body is the accumulation of emotional pain from the past, not only of one’s own personal past--and of course, there's an accumulation of pain from everybody’s childhood and life also--but also, pain that is part of collective human pain.

If you look at human history, you can see a very large part of human history is the history of self-inflicted suffering of humans inflicting dreadful suffering on each other, on themselves also, of course. The 20th century was the supreme example of that, what I call “the collective madness” where I believe nobody knows the exact figure but perhaps 100 million people were killed by other humans and this is the height of madness.

This has been going on, this magnified knowledge through science and technology, so it's the destructiveness of all of that. But yet, this has been going on forever since recorded history and before that, I'm sure, so that incredibly so much pain in human history collectively has accumulated. I'm sure that pain gets genetically passed on, it's probably even built into the DNA, every DNA has a built-in pain. So every human being partakes of collective human emotional pain.

Now, most human beings don’t know that. They believe their own pain is a very personal matter. They don’t realize very often that the pain they carry inside, a lot of that is simply human pain. So what I call pain body is an accumulation, an energy field, a residue left by past pain, an emotional field of heaviness or turbulence or tightness that lives in the body as that heaviness, that tightness. The way I look on the pain body--and I believe it's a very useful perspective--is to say it's almost as if it were an entity, an independent-like parasitic entity that lives in you. Don’t take it as the ultimate choice of language, it's just a useful perspective.

So that pain body lives in each human being, in some it manifests more strongly than in others. It is not always active, it has a dormant stage and it has an active stage. So at times, the pain body, you can hardly feel it, or it may just be in the background. Then something happens, a trigger happens, a thought comes into your head or somebody says something or a little thing goes wrong and that suddenly produces an enormous influx of emotional pain. When that happens, that means the accumulated pain needs to come up and feed on more pain. I call that “the pain body awakens.” Suddenly, you are flooded with emotional pain.

So this pain body, this parasitic entity, ultimately, it's not an enemy at all but it's just a way of looking at it, it needs periodically to feed. When the time comes for it to feed, it will use any excuse in your surroundings or in your mind to wake up. Suddenly, intense anger or intense depression or great fear arises and that moves into your mind and suddenly controls your thinking. All your thinking then becomes aligned with the painful energy field, what you feel, the thinking becomes dominated by the pain body.”

We go on from there to describe how to break that vicious cycle, as I put it:  “particularly at a time when the collective consciousness worldwide through global communications, the Internet, cable TV, and the particular horror unleashed after 9/11 with the tremendous ongoing struggle between competing worldviews at the meta level”, continues to feed our pain body through seemingly all-pervasive infotainment.  I then invite us “to explore in our next Dialogue [Program 46 following] this great paradox that when suffering ceases, it doesn’t mean that you’ve added the state of happiness to the content of your consciousness.  In fact, you may still experience unhappiness, but you’re not suffering [because you’ve released attachment to a particular future].  That’s one of the great paradoxes that is addressed in The Power of Now.”

 

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING
WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, LYNNE MCTAGGART AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

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In this Part 2 of our dialogue, fellow visionary Lynne McTaggart and I give examples of various contemporary scientists and scientific experiments that have been and are demonstrating how the so-called “quantum reality” of interconnectedness, non-locality and the “observer effect” extend to the “big world” of everyday reality as we all experience it (see, for example Programs 6 and 8 on this site with world-renowned biologist Rupert Sheldrake).  These examples are explained in easily understandable and accessible terms revealing their relevance to our lives.  One of the major implications of these experimental findings which emerges is that we all influence the world that we experience through our perceptions and intentions, whether we do so consciously or unconsciously.

At the end of the description of our previous dialogue (Program 43), I made reference to Richard Tarnas (Programs 31 and 32) and his phrase “participatory epistemology”.  This phrase is an elegant etymological way of saying that what we know (or think we know), and how we know things, is dependent on our “participation”, at whatever level of consciousness we bring to the moment of awareness.  In this dialogue Lynne and I describe how this phenomenon is called the “observer effect” by scientists who now understand that there is no such thing as a “passive neutral” or “objective” observer or observation of a separate reality independent of subjective perception.  A corollary of this is that everything in our alive universe is interconnected and the future is open to be influenced and shaped by the power of our conscious intention.

To connect to this understanding we must, like the scientists we dialogue about, be willing to open to this paradoxical new and ancient worldview beyond the modern superstitions of mainstream industrial culture that take the Newtonian classical laws of physics to be immutable and all-encompassing -- limiting our reality to a world of matter and mind separate from one another in which our best intentions seem to matter little in the face of larger, impersonal forces fueled by the competitive desire to dominate.

How we can understand the difference between conscious, inclusive, intention for the larger good and mere self-referential desire, and how we can bring this awareness to our own “participation” in shaping our world, individually and collectively, is the subject of this dialogue and of Lynne’s new book The Intention Experiment.  The worldwide experiments being designed and conducted by Lynne and her team of world scientists are directly relevant to our planetary evolution, involving how each of us can together impact global warming, the proliferating conflicts and violence in different areas of the world, etc.

And what is particularly useful and innovative in this is that Lynne is structuring pioneering worldwide experiments in conscious intention that any of us can participate in at this time by simply: (1) listening to this dialogue to first learn the basics of the nature and power of intention in the way described in this dialogue (and in her book), and then (2) going to the websites referenced by clicking on the Episode Detail orange box above at the left of this dialogue description.

If you are interested and have not already done so, you can begin this process by reading the description of dialogue Program 43 below – Part 1 of my dialogue with Lynne McTaggart, referencing her earlier ground-breaking book, The Field – and listening to that Program.

And stay tune next week and after for my two-part dialogue with Eckhart Tolle (Programs 45 and 46), whose series of 10 web programs with Oprah on his book A New Earth have involved over 2 million participants each week.  My dialogues with Eckhart on his and our collective awakening to the Power of Now and the centrality of this to the evolutionary unfolding of our planet are directly complementary to the series with Oprah.

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING
WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, GANGAJI, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

more.

In this dialogue, with another fellow visionary, Lynne McTaggart, I expand, build upon, and update the subjects that Duane Elgin and I talked about in the three prior dialogues on this site (Programs 40, 41, and 42).  Here is an excerpt from the opening of this dialogue Program 43:

“Duncan Campbell:  We're going to talk about how science in the West has moved forward beyond ‘modern mind’ conventional classical physics of the 17th-19th centuries, and the Quantum Physics of the 20th century, to the contemporary 21st century discoveries of the “field effect” and its implications, and what these exciting, really revolutionary discoveries have been in just the last few years, and what they indicate in terms of the evolution of consciousness.

Lynne McTaggart: OK. I think the most fundamental point is to understand that we, all of us in the universe, swim in a sea of light is the way I like to put it -- there's a field out there of energy that’s very much like ‘the Force’ in Star Wars. It is very interesting if you go back and look at Star Wars after seeing the later movie What the Bleep on quantum physics, you see a lot of the presence of the original moviemakers there, too.

A lot of scientists realized, after the discovery of Quantum Physics, that there was a thing called the “vacuum” or the “zero point field”. This is the energy, basically, in empty space, in ground space because what they realized is that even if you reduce temperatures to even much colder that we've got today to nearly absolute zero, some atomic particles don’t stop moving. They do a little energy dance with empty space.

If you imagine all of us, it takes us to our absolute nether particles, the undercode of our being, we're just, basically, energy in charge. Our subatomic particles are constantly treating energy with the energy of the field. So it means that there is this insurmountable amount of energy lying there in empty space. If you were sitting a yard away from me, this energy is so dense and has such extraordinary inherent potential that it would be enough to boil all the oceans of the world. So I think the most fundamental thing is that we have this constant energy dense with the field. It's so fundamental that we realize that we are all one, we're all connected.

Duncan Campbell: That really, I think, is one of the things that we can key off on now to talk about the history of this and of our consciousness altogether. One of the ways I like to look at it is that in the vast sweep of the evolutionary history of the species, if we go back to our early indigenous ancestor roots -- the DNA of which we still have in our contemporary bodies [and emotional bodies, as we shall see in my next set of dialogues, Programs 45 and 46, with Eckhart Tolle] -- we find that our ancestors had a profound understanding of the inner connectedness of all things.  [What a number of contemporary intellectuals and scientists sometimes confuse and conflate with “magical thinking”, which they use in a derogatory sense.]

In scholarly terms, this sense of the interconnectedness of all things (called the “Web of Wyrd” by the Celts, and “Indra’s Net” in the Indian Vedas) is sometimes called the “participation mystique” from the French, or the “mystical participation”, with nature. The ‘indigenous’ early members of our species, before the advent of the ‘modern mind’, understood innately that they were in an alive, wondrous and at times dangerous universe, and that even rocks and stones had sentience or consciousness in the sense that they were a part of creation and all of creation was infused with what sometimes is called “The Great Mystery”. So there could be communing with standing stones, there could be communing, of course, with plants and animals as well as humans.

Then we as a species got into what we might call, and what I refer to generally as, the ‘modern mind’.  Some people date the advent of what I term this “adolescence” of our species’ consciousness (which continues to our contemporary “late adolescence” today) back as long as 35,000 years ago, when people, at that time, began as humans to move from homo sapiens to homo sapiens sapiens (“the aware human that is aware of its own awareness”), and put symbols on caves’ sides and so on, the first graphic record of radically self-aware human consciousness which has survived.  (Others would also date it back to 70,000 years ago, the time of the first known decorative shell artifact used as separate self-recognizing “jewelry”.)  The separation from our sense of embeddedness in the womb of an alive universe into individuated human identity can subsequently be seen evolving from the time humans moved to develop agriculture and tried to control nature, domesticating plants and animals for our use. Then most importantly, in the last 500 years – starting in the West say, with Copernicus, and then moving into the Industrial, Scientific, Technological and Information Revolutions -- we have an intensification of the individuating modern mind which literally disenchanted the universe. This made the world beyond the separate human mind simply an array of separate objects that was inert, without consciousness, existing only for us to try to figure out the rules that apply to this fragmented, objectified universe, a perspective sometimes referred to as the ‘Newtonian/Cartesian’ world view. [One of the most recent and dramatic examples of our species’ predilection to try to ‘control’ matter (nature) with our technology is the Chinese Army practicing using artillery to shoot into clouds to precipitate their rainfall before the clouds can drift over Bejing in August 2008 and rain on the Olympics.]

This really is at the heart of a quotation I'm about to read to lead into our next set of comments, Lynne, and this was made by the German philosopher, Friedrich Nietzche, who realized at the end of the 19th century that the epochal crisis of the modern mind would happen when it became conscious of its destruction of the metaphysical world or of the alive universe. He said it in this aphorism, “God is dead.” By that, he meant that people had literally killed the mystery, a kind of Midas’ touch of the mind: instead of everything turning to gold, everything turned to dead matter that we could try to organize according to the laws of physics and mathematics but that had no independent interactive consciousness of its own.

So here's what Nietzche said to predict what our crisis would be in the 20th century: “What were we doing when we unchained the earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually backwards, sidewards, forwards, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying as though through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us?” Following that, we had the 20th century with its attempt to unilaterally master the mystery of the universe with the human mind and its mind-made artifacts alone, and the death by human hands of more millions of people in one century than all of prior human history.

So with that backdrop, I think now, Lynne, let us talk about how Quantum Physics began to shift that perception and open the door to what has become an ongoing rediscovery and reawakening of an evolving alive universe infused with consciousness -- in which current cutting edge Western science now perceives and demonstrates by its own methodology -- in the many examples highlighted in your book The Field -- what the ancients knew with theirs:  that we are, in fact, not all separate but deeply interconnected and possessing the skills and the heart and the energy within ourselves – the life Force -- to actually bring about a new harmony, a new evolutionary era.”

[See also in this connection my dialogues with Richard Tarnas, Programs 31 and 32 on this site, regarding his description of the “participatory epistemology” characteristic of this new era.]

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING
WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, BRIAN WEISS, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, LARRY DOSSEY, JUDY COLLINS, MARIANNE WILLIAMSON, MATTHEW FOX, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, DUANE ELGIN, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

more.

In this dialogue, I talk with one of our fellow visionaries (and media activist) Duane Elgin about certain of the core themes Living Dialogues has expressed since its inception.  Included among these Living Dialogues perspectives are:   (1) the fact that we live in an “alive universe”, in which our dialogues as humans are not exclusively with ourselves, or even “within ourselves”, but from my perspective, also with all of manifest and unmanifest creation -- involving a feeling for the natural world and the cosmic potential for goodness (acknowledged by Einstein among countless others), which supports us in our hope for an evolved future beyond the destructive fragmentation of our current cultural settings; (2) the recognition that as a species, our human family is currently in an adolescent stage of development, now beginning a kind of collective rite of passage into a greater maturity, so that we can go beyond demonizing dualism as a survival strategy into a greater sense of understanding and unity within diversity (“out of the many we are one”) – and so keep pace as a species within the evolutionary imperative coming from an infinitely expanding universe, which science shows us is continuing to further complexify and integrate at an ever more rapid pace; and (3) recognizing that, as I often say, “dialogue is the language of evolutionary transformation”, that we can only make this evolutionary adaptation and survival leap in concert with one another, a shared midwiving if you will -- involving multiple ongoing dialogues between all participants in this birthing of a new and deeper required understanding of ourselves and our world.

As the well-known anthropologist Margaret Mead once said:  “For humanity to evolve, the conversation must deepen”.  This is what the program Living Dialogues is about, with myself, my guests, and all of our deep listeners continually and collectively evoking further insights of this new understanding from and with one another.

In this concluding Part 3 of my 3-part dialogue with Duane Elgin, I focus on at the first of the three core themes of Living Dialogues set forth above, the foundational awareness that we exist in an “alive universe”.   In order to survive, much less thrive, as a species, we recognize the need to move beyond our adolescent preoccupation with materialism into a more mature, reflective, and co-creative consciousness.  This fascination with materialism is a result of our “modern” conventional scientific world view, which for the last four centuries has viewed the world beyond our subjective consciousness as objective, fragmented, and inert – there, essentially, to be manipulated for our own purposes by humanity.  As Duane observes, if the universe is essentially dead at the foundations, then consumerism makes sense, but now contemporary science is finding that the universe is, in fact, integrated into a whole conscious system.  Despite the enormous distances that separate its different parts, the universe functions as an integrated unified whole, so fragmentation is being overcome with unification.

As I have observed in other dialogues, contemporary science is now confirming this “wholistic” consciousness that we can also access by in effect “remembering” and reawakening to our indigenous heritage, where as a species we experienced ourselves as embedded in an alive universe.  As Barry Lopez observed in Arctic Dreams, “the land is an animal that contains all animals” (see his praise for Paul Hawken’s Blessed Unrest and the dialogues Paul and I engaged in in Programs 35 and 36 in this series).  Duane adds that these new “discoveries” by contemporary science do not constitute a new idea.  In addition to the worldview of native peoples everywhere, Plato in our Western culture said a couple of thousand years ago that the universe “is a single living creature that encompasses all living creatures within it”.  As we begin to understand that the universe is really a living universe, then our experience with the soulful dimensions of life and relationships become so rich and meaningful that a consumerist lifestyle appears pale by comparison.

We know that in general our culture is in great crisis because we have literally a multibillion dollar industry of anti-depressants that’s being sold, as we speak, to many millions of individuals throughout the world, so that there clearly is a crisis of meaning and purpose in the midst of the consumer lifestyle.  Joseph Campbell once described the finding of the Grail (what in the East is called “enlightenment”) as awakening to aligning one’s own personal energies with the inexhaustible energies of the universe.  This requires an understanding that we exist as an integral part of “the force” of a self-renewing, constantly regenerating living cosmos.  When that pours into time through our own consciousness, we experience ourselves as fully alive, embraced in a caring intelligence vibrating with purpose and meaning, accessing the full richness of our inheritance as divine human beings on the planet.  This kind of poetic or mythical or mystical understanding is now being confirmed in its own way by Western science.  By bringing together the best, enduring aspects of both our indigenous and modern mind heritages in dialogue, we can “transcend and include” both in a new and renewed integrative vision and experience.   In so doing, we can reconnect what Vaclav Havel calls our “transcendent anchor” with our lived, day to day, experience, move beyond temporary pleasures into real joy, and come together in collaborative contribution to our shared alive universe.

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, MATTHEW FOX, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

more.

In this dialogue, I talk with one of our fellow visionaries (and media activist) Duane Elgin about certain of the core themes Living Dialogues has expressed since its inception.  Included among these Living Dialogues perspectives are:   (1) the fact that we live in an “alive universe”, in which our dialogues as humans are not exclusively with ourselves, or even “within ourselves”, but from my perspective, also with all of manifest and unmanifest creation -- involving a feeling for the natural world and the cosmic potential for goodness (acknowledged by Einstein among countless others), which supports us in our hope for an evolved future beyond the destructive fragmentation of our current cultural settings; (2) the recognition that as a species, our human family is currently in an adolescent stage of development, now beginning a kind of collective rite of passage into a greater maturity, so that we can go beyond demonizing dualism as a survival strategy into a greater sense of understanding and unity within diversity (“out of the many we are one”) – and so keep pace as a species within the evolutionary imperative coming from an infinitely expanding universe, which science shows us is continuing to further complexify and integrate at an ever more rapid pace; and (3) recognizing that, as I often say, “dialogue is the language of evolutionary transformation”, that we can only make this evolutionary adaptation and survival leap in concert with one another, a shared midwiving if you will -- involving multiple ongoing dialogues between all participants in this birthing of a new and deeper required understanding of ourselves and our world.

As the well-known anthropologist Margaret Mead once said:  “For humanity to evolve, the conversation must deepen”.  This is what the program Living Dialogues is about, with myself, my guests, and all of our deep listeners continually and collectively evoking further insights of this new understanding from and with one another.

In this Part 2 of my 3-part dialogue with Duane Elgin, I focus on at the second of the three core themes of Living Dialogues set forth above, as we explore together in depth the history and stages of human evolution to see why we are at an inflection point now in our development, poised in an initatic evolutionary moment which could (1) make a quantum leap beyond our adolescent dualism and conflict into the beginnings of a real maturity, what I often call a Sacred Marriage of feminine and masculine energies, able to hold our rapidly evolving technologies in a non-destructive, nurturing, generative manner, a new meta-Renaissance; (2) degenerate further into complete collapse, ushering in a new Dark Ages, then rebuilding from a devastated base, or perhaps not rebuilding at all; or (3) remain stuck in a kind of polarized and destructive stagnation until one of the previous two dialectical alternatives prevails.

We review our pre-individualist knowings from the beginnings of human consciousness, moving into the homo sapiens sapiens explosions of artistic and spiritual creativity that emerged in our species approximately 35,000 years ago (evidenced by cave paintings in various parts of the world), followed 25,000 years later by the beginning of agriculture (the “domestication” of the plant and animal species), then advancing through city-states (with mathematics, astronomy, metallurgy, architecture and complex building) following the Modern Mind development trajectory as it continued into the industrial revolution, and now into our present “communications era” characterized by planetary modes of communication, satellite television, international air travel, the Internet, etc.

Many of us understand that we are poised and challenged to make a quantum leap of consciousness during our lifetimes, with the key distinctions from past eras that we may for the first time in human history be able to reach “critical mass” so that the transformation is both conscious and intentional, as well as a broad-based transformation beyond small numbers of aware people as have existed throughout history.  We are energized in this by the push of dire necessity (global warming, species extinction, etc.) and the pull of extraordinary opportunity (the ever more available access to the whole storehouse of human knowledge and wisdom traditions, and the ability to democratically communicate with one another over the Internet, etc.).

Or, as I often put it in shorthand:  we are challenged to keep up with the imperative of evolution itself, the increasingly rapid complexification of the cosmos in both greater and greater diversity and higher and higher levels of integration.  And we can only do this by embracing an “engaged cosmology” together in multiple dialogues – within and between ourselves and all forms of consciousness.

As I have seen everywhere I have traveled throughout the world, there is a huge movement now afoot about shared consciousness, moving from fragmented consciousness to connection and dialogue – where we come together not just to share information, but to evoke an empowering revelatory awareness, one that sparks our ember of consciousness into an ever greater fire of generative and positive change and transformation.  (Scroll down most recently and listen, for example, as just one example, to my dialogues in Programs 36 and 37 on this website with Paul Hawken.)

We can all join in engaging this evolutionary energy by participating in “conversations that matter”, such as these Living Dialogues in which your deep listening is an essential part of what gets evoked and articulated -- not only within the program but in conversations and awareness stimulated beyond when we continue to come together in an open-ended and open-hearted manner.  Such coming together occurs when each of holds, in quantum physicist David Bohm’s term “a bank of the river” of dialogue rather than mere discussion.  This is where the great river of Logos – the revelation of the Mystery – can flow into time through us.

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, MATTHEW FOX, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

more.

In this dialogue, I talk with one of our fellow visionaries (and media activist) Duane Elgin about certain of the core themes Living Dialogues has expressed since its inception.  Included among these Living Dialogues perspectives are:   (1) the fact that we live in an “alive universe”, in which our dialogues as humans are not exclusively with ourselves, or even “within ourselves”, but from my perspective, also with all of manifest and unmanifest creation -- involving a feeling for the natural world and the cosmic potential for goodness (acknowledged by Einstein among countless others), which supports us in our hope for an evolved future beyond the destructive fragmentation of our current cultural settings; (2) the recognition that as a species, our human family is currently in an adolescent stage of development, now beginning a kind of collective rite of passage into a greater maturity, so that we can go beyond demonizing dualism as a survival strategy into a greater sense of understanding and unity within diversity (“out of the many we are one”) – and so keep pace as a species within the evolutionary imperative coming from an infinitely expanding universe, which science shows us is continuing to further complexify and integrate at an ever more rapid pace; and (3) recognizing that, as I often say, “dialogue is the language of evolutionary transformation”, that we can only make this evolutionary adaptation and survival leap in concert with one another, a shared midwiving if you will -- involving multiple ongoing dialogues between all participants in this birthing of a new and deeper required understanding of ourselves and our world.

As the well-known anthropologist Margaret Mead once said:  “For humanity to evolve, the conversation must deepen”.  This is what the program Living Dialogues is about, with myself, my guests, and all of our deep listeners continually and collectively evoking further insights of this new understanding from and with one another.

In this Part 1 of my 3-part dialogue with Duane Elgin, we set the overview and lay the foundation for our subsequent two dialogues, in the process referring to certain themes discussed on previous Living Dialogues on this website (scroll down and see, for example, Programs 31 and 32 with Richard Tarnas and Program 37 with Paul Ray).   Among other topics, we talk about the 20th century role of Joseph Campbell in helping us prepare for this next great initiation:  the creation by all of us together of certain new planetary myths (beyond the tribal myths Joe documented and explained so well).  We talk about how this collective initiation of the human family in the 21st century involves a time of reflection, taking an assessment of ourselves in our personal and social actions.  I believe this process is a kind of collective vision quest going out beyond the range of both our ancestors and our conventional modern world perspectives, to a new third consciousness, capable of sustaining us in this time of ever more rapid change.

Among the key dialogues that need to take place are those among youth and elders, men and women, different ethnicities, different nations, indigenous and modern cultures. 

I talk about the “ethical dialogue” psychologist and historian Erik Erikson said all civilizations need to nurture between youth and elders in order for a civilization to remain vital and survive and thrive.  This dialogue about the values we proclaim and being accountable for the gap between those values and our culture’s lived reality is essential.  Idealistic youth bring a certain wisdom to the table in that they have a passion for these values to create a world that will live as long as they do (sustainability), and they have a familiarity with the rapidly changing technology of communications.  And real elders, like Socrates in his time, support that hope by stressing the importance of integrity and truth, in ourselves and in our actions in the larger world, in order to create change that will benefit the whole and endure.

The first step to creating a sustainable future together is mutual understanding and finding common ground beyond dualities of gender, race, nationality, generations, etc.   Then we use new forms of technology (video, internet, etc.) to democratize and vitalize our communications beyond the non-reflective, manipulative, commodity and consumerist driven commercial consciousness perpetuated and reinforced by our current mass media, in order to make the leap to a new and deeper consciousness.  Duane Elgin talks about his passion for bringing our mass media back into a responsible role in our cultural dialogue, offering the perspective for his focus on media transformation:  “It is primarily through our ‘social brain’ (i.e., the television system and its interconnected computer and satellite networks) that the mindset of the species will be established and cultivated.  How we use our tools of mass communication is not just another issue – it is the basis for understanding and responding to all issues.”

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING
WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, MATTHEW FOX, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, JOSEPH ELLIS, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

more.

What patterns are emerging in the 2008 U.S. Presidential Primaries?  Will what Bob Herbert of the New York Times and many others have referred to as the bitter divisions of the last 20 years prevail and thus continue and intensify?  Or will America be able to embrace real change and live up to its motto E Pluribus Unum, ‘out of the many we are one’, to survive and prosper in the 21st century as a respected and generative force in the world?  In this program, I dialogue with Pulitzer Prize winner Joseph Ellis, called "the 'Founders' historian" by The New York Review of Books, and author of Founding Brothers, American Sphinx, His Excellency George Washington, and most recently American Creation -- about the tipping point historical significance and perspective of the 2008 Presidential Primaries and elections, and what effect a further divided or united America emerging will have on the survival prospects of "the continuing American revolution".

Will the de facto dominance of two "monarchial" families (the name-recognition-based 'collusive celebrarchy' as some have called it) of the last 20 years, with their commonality of encouraging ‘identity politics’ in the political spectrum to win power and govern through divisiveness, continue?  Or will the 21st century see once again in American history an adaptive evolutionary transformation of politics in a genuine cleansing and fresh perspective, freeing us from the continuing self-serving gridlock and stains of the past and bringing new 'clean energy' to both process and policies, in the unifying spirit of Washington and Lincoln?  As Jonathan Alter of Newsweek framed it, "will it be Restoration or Inspiration" that we choose now to be the hallmark of this next generation.

As I mentioned in my prior dialogue with Paul Ray on the creation of a world wisdom culture, in order to meet the demands of interpenetrating globalization, peak oil, and global warming, all parts of our culture, including our political culture must be planetary and world-centric in identity and scope, capable of holding the exploding worldwide diversity in a larger creative and cooperative whole.  To do this, those of us in America also have to grow up, to mature as a nation beyond being in the co-dependent thrall of mentally adolescent politicians and other would be authorities whose narcissism disempowers and polarizes by playing on victimhood, doubt, ignorance and fear to manipulate the identity politics of both left and right.

In this two-part dialogue, Joe Ellis and I give historical confirmation to what I have said in many of my other dialogues – affirming that we can do this by activating an energizing remembrance of a deeper felt sense of unity that is part of the heritage of our collective past, together with the individual creativity and innovation of our contemporary modern mind, to co-create the new structures and content of a transformed culture.  A new kind of inspirational politician is now required for this bold evolutionary and creative leap to take place in our public sphere, one who interacts by mutually empowering deep listening and opening to heartfelt eloquent speech that stirs the soul – evoking our deep shared hope that is in accord with “the most heartfelt and cherished version of our original intentions as a people and a nation”, in the tradition of Washington, Lincoln, FDR, and JFK, as well as Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy.  Only such a figure can adequately play the truly transformational political role called for as part of our collective drama in this historical tipping point time, to bring new energy and participants together. 

We who are the vanguard of choosing change are all called to lead by example, to meet the core challenge of the evolutionary impulse and imperative to realize E Pluribus Unum in all spheres.  Barack and Michelle Obama are part of this vanguard in political life.  By having the courage to choose change, repudiating deceit and refusing to endorse an expedient, corrupting strategy of sowing divisiveness, we maintain our truth and integrity, and build trust that we can feel inspired and “follow our bliss” to once again feel good about our country, ourselves, and the prospects for the species.  I, you, we – all the personal pronouns together – can make history now by “turning the nation’s sorrowful partisan and racial narrative into something radiant and hopeful”.  Otherwise, in the words of a recent Op-ed piece:  “it’s not change, it’s not a breakthrough moment in American history.  It’s just a nervous decision that we’d rather go back than risk going forward”.  Are we collectively and individually ready to take this courageous evolutionary leap, to confront, expose and leave behind the either-or polarizing ideologies and politics of the past in order to meet this historical moment to secure an evolved future for all?  If not, then that which we fail to transform, both inner and outer, through healing awareness, that which is avoided and kept apart rather than “transcended and included”, will show up, as observed by C.G.Jung, not as our destiny, but as our fate.

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING
WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, MATTHEW FOX, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

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What patterns are emerging in the 2008 U.S. Presidential Primaries?  Will what Bob Herbert of the New York Times and many others have referred to as the bitter divisions of the last 20 years prevail and thus continue and intensify?  Or will America be able to embrace real change and live up to its motto E Pluribus Unum, ‘out of the many we are one’, to survive and prosper in the 21st century as a respected and generative force in the world?  In this program, I dialogue with Pulitzer Prize winner Joseph Ellis, called "the 'Founders' historian" by The New York Review of Books, and author of Founding Brothers, American Sphinx, His Excellency George Washington, and most recently American Creation -- about the tipping point historical significance and perspective of the 2008 Presidential Primaries and elections, and what effect a further divided or united America emerging will have on the survival prospects of "the continuing American revolution".

Will the de facto dominance of two "monarchial" families (the name-recognition-based 'collusive celebrarchy' as some have called it) of the last 20 years, with their commonality of encouraging ‘identity politics’ in the political spectrum to win power and govern through divisiveness, continue?  Or will the 21st century see once again in American history an adaptive evolutionary transformation of politics in a genuine cleansing and fresh perspective, freeing us from the continuing self-serving gridlock and stains of the past and bringing new 'clean energy' to both process and policies, in the unifying spirit of Washington and Lincoln?  As Jonathan Alter of Newsweek framed it, "will it be Restoration or Inspiration" that we choose now to be the hallmark of this next generation.

As I mentioned in my prior dialogue with Paul Ray on the creation of a world wisdom culture, in order to meet the demands of interpenetrating globalization, peak oil, and global warming, all parts of our culture, including our political culture must be planetary and world-centric in identity and scope, capable of holding the exploding worldwide diversity in a larger creative and cooperative whole.  To do this, those of us in America also have to grow up, to mature as a nation beyond being in the co-dependent thrall of mentally adolescent politicians and other would be authorities whose narcissism disempowers and polarizes by playing on victimhood, doubt, ignorance and fear to manipulate the identity politics of both left and right.

In this two-part dialogue, Joe Ellis and I give historical confirmation to what I have said in many of my other dialogues – affirming that we can do this by activating an energizing remembrance of a deeper felt sense of unity that is part of the heritage of our collective past, together with the individual creativity and innovation of our contemporary modern mind, to co-create the new structures and content of a transformed culture.  A new kind of inspirational politician is now required for this bold evolutionary and creative leap to take place in our public sphere, one who interacts by mutually empowering deep listening and opening to heartfelt eloquent speech that stirs the soul – evoking our deep shared hope that is in accord with “the most heartfelt and cherished version of our original intentions as a people and a nation”, in the tradition of Washington, Lincoln, FDR, and JFK, as well as Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy.  Only such a figure can adequately play the truly transformational political role called for as part of our collective drama in this historical tipping point time, to bring new energy and participants together. 

We who are the vanguard of choosing change are all called to lead by example, to meet the core challenge of the evolutionary impulse and imperative to realize E Pluribus Unum in all spheres.  Barack and Michelle Obama are part of this vanguard in political life.  By having the courage to choose change, repudiating deceit and refusing to endorse an expedient, corrupting strategy of sowing divisiveness, we maintain our truth and integrity, and build trust that we can feel inspired and “follow our bliss” to once again feel good about our country, ourselves, and the prospects for the species.  I, you, we – all the personal pronouns together – can make history now by “turning the nation’s sorrowful partisan and racial narrative into something radiant and hopeful”.  Otherwise, in the words of a recent Op-ed piece:  “it’s not change, it’s not a breakthrough moment in American history.  It’s just a nervous decision that we’d rather go back than risk going forward”.  Are we collectively and individually ready to take this courageous evolutionary leap, to confront, expose and leave behind the either-or polarizing ideologies and politics of the past in order to meet this historical moment to secure an evolved future for all?  If not, then that which we fail to transform, both inner and outer, through healing awareness, that which is avoided and kept apart rather than “transcended and included”, will show up, as observed by C.G.Jung, not as our destiny, but as our fate.

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, MATTHEW FOX, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, PAUL RAY, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

more.

Coleman Barks (click on his name at right for Living Dialogues program), poet and leading American translator of the world-centric poet Rumi, has observed that “we are trying to create a civilization without elders to lead us”.  That is not to say that this new civilization – or wisdom culture – will be without elders, but as I take it, only that in these literally unprecedented 21st century times we must become our own elders.  Collectively we can do this by recognizing that only through mutually informing and respectful dialogue, between generations, between men and women, between different ethnicities, between different spiritual traditions and approaches, between private enterprise and government, etc. can we collaboratively bring forth a new wisdom culture.  To meet the demands of interpenetrating globalization, peak oil, and global warming, such a culture must be planetary in scope, capable of holding the exploding worldwide diversity in a larger creative and cooperative whole.  To do this, we also have to grow up, to mature beyond what Paul Ray in this dialogue describes as the narcissistic, self-centered adolescent economic model that currently dominates in many spheres.  We here elaborate on what I have said in many of these dialogues -- that we can do this by activating an energizing remembrance of a deeper felt sense of unity that is part of our collective past, together with the individual creativity and innovation of our modern mind, to co-create the new structures and content of a transformed culture.

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING
WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE -- OR CLICK ON THE NAME OF A GUEST ON THE LIST AT THE RIGHT -- TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, MATTHEW FOX, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, PAUL HAWKEN, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

more.

As Margaret Mead observed: “For the human species to evolve, the conversation must deepen”.  As I say on Living Dialogues:  “Dialogue is the language of Evolutionary Transformation – integrating and going beyond our indigenous and modern minds, to an awareness that we are active co-creators of an all-pervasive living reality, in ever-evolving dialogue with the cosmos itself”.  In this dialogue, Paul and I talk about key world historical events we have experienced that helped generate the numberless organizations and projects that have spontaneously sprung up worldwide, and that are catalogued in a “living taxonomy of human organizations” in the very exciting new website www.wiserearth.org which Paul describes in depth.  Wikipedia-like, but beyond that in its transparency and accountability, www.wiserearth.org is truly our ongoing evolutionary creation; and we are all invited to “the table which has been set for us to celebrate together” in Rumi’s words.

“If you have lost a sense of direction in your life, if despair dogs your every step, pick up a pencil and pick up this book.  Paul Hawken, without a trace of self-importance, impales a very dark room on the beam of a very bright light here.  In his hands, the civil society movement reveals itself as the action that has replaced the talk.”  -- Barry Lopez, author of Resistance and Artic Dreams

 “Blessed Unrest is a beautiful, soulful, crucial book.  It is a manifesto of hope for the 21st century grounded squarely in the hearts of engaged people around the planet.  Paul Hawken testifies on behalf of this “movement with no name” with his charismatic intelligence and insight.  This book makes the invisible visible.  I believe Hawken when he says we are part of the Earth’s immune system each time we exercise our active compassion in the name of social justice and ecological health.  I love this book.  It is a field guide for all that is possible.”  -- Terry Tempest Williams, author of The Open Space of Democracy

“Paul Hawken has written an important and significant book – intelligent, compelling, moving, and hopeful.  In the broad sweep of a history of diffuse and seemingly unconnected events and people he has found emergent pattern.  That pattern, amazing simultaneously in its intricacy and simplicity, gives clarity to the direction humankind is moving in its struggle for survival.  Read and regain a sense of optimism for our grandchildren’s grandchildren; and be motivated to ensure that they inherit a restored earth and an equitable society.”  -- Ray Anderson, CEO of Interface and author of Mid-Course Correction

I’m Paul Hawken, the author of Blessed Unrest:  How the Largest Movement in the World Came Into Being and Why No One Saw It Coming.  One of the aspects and the expressions of this Movement is Living Dialogues, which you’re listening to right now.  And I urge you to continue to do so to build this Movement.

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.  TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE ON WWW.PERSONALLIFEMEDIA.COM TO HEAR DUNCAN’S DIALOGUES WITH DR. ANDREW WEIL, MATTHEW FOX, COLEMAN BARKS, RUPERT SHELDRAKE, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, RICHARD MOSS, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program, or a CD or MP3 of the complete dialogue with myself and Paul Hawken, you can contact me at my website: www.livingdialogues.com or at [email protected]. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan

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I’m Paul Hawken, the author of Blessed Unrest:  How the Largest Movement in the World Came Into Being and Why No One Saw It Coming.  One of the aspects and the expressions of this Movement is Living Dialogues, which you’re listening to right now.  And I urge you to continue to do so to build this Movement.

As observed in my prior dialogue with Richard Moss (scroll down on this site), it is by evolving our consciousness that we will initiate transforming and sustaining ourselves and the world.  As Einstein famously said:  we cannot solve problems from the same level of understanding that created them.  The whole of Living Dialogues are in this sense a kind of high-level “cliff notes”, accessible deep listening, for our required consciousness revolution, called forth by every part, inner and outer, of our alive universe.  In this dialogue, Paul and I continue this evolutionary exploration through the non-hierarchical, self-organizing “human taxonomy” he has gathered, revealing the pattern of countless others of us worldwide engaged in this same resonant process – each active, diverse expression uniquely different, but amazingly none in conflict with each other, all harmonious with the evolving “immune response” of the whole.

“Blessed Unrest is exciting, compelling, and very important.  It describes the growing unrest that I encounter around the world, the frustration and courage of those who dare to challenge the power of the corporate world.  Paul Hawken states eloquently all that I believe so passionately to be true – that there is inherent goodness at the heart of our humanity, that collectively we can – and are – changing the world.  Please read and share Blessed Unrest, a celebration of the awakening of the human spirit.  It will inspire and encourage millions more to take action.”  -- Jane Goodall, UN Ambassador for Peace

“This is the first full account of the real news of our time, and it’s exactly the opposite of the official account.  The movers and shakers on our planet aren’t the billionaires and the generals  -- they are the incredible numbers of people around the world filled with love for neighbor and for the earth who are resisting, remaking, restoring, renewing, revitalizing.  This powerful and lovely book is their story – our story – and it’s high time someone’s told it.  Nothing you read for years to come will fill you with more hope and more determination.”  -- Bill McKibben, author of Deep Economy and The End of Nature

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Richard Moss:& Living Dialogues means a conversation.& A conversation gives birth to something that maybe neither Duncan nor myself, nor any of us when we&’re in conversation in this way, would have expected to happen.& Living Dialogues is very much about giving birth -- to insight, to connection, to connectedness, and to gratitude in the experience of those.

Duncan:& It&’s true.& It becomes a dialogue that expands, like a pebble in a pond.

&“At the center of our personal mandala is a much deeper awareness than that of the ego – the mind is still, all of our senses are alive to the present moment.& The sense of meaning is not derived from the content of thought, it simply floods us from within.& This is available to us with intention and practice, without the need for any intermediary authority.& Consciousness we see everywhere on the planet, and over time we&’ll see it throughout the universe.& It is not limited to our brains.& When we hear and follow the call of our Holy Soul, we start to realize that we are really on the evolutionary path, we have started to outgrow the human as an idea of itself, the human man or woman as an idea of itself.& The co-creative process of conversation and true dialogue between men and women is crucial to our evolution.& If we start with conditioned identities of what it means to be a man or a woman, we&’re going to just be in a ceaseless negotiation and conflict.& But we can start from a deeper awareness and the deeper consciousness that is not male or female, and is neither born, nor does it die -- whether you&’ve had that experience directly or not, or you just take on faith or trust that you can rely on your own understanding of your soul. What is needed now, what evolution itself is demanding, is that we experience the self-transcending power of the soul.& We do not have to change the world.& We only need to reclaim the fullness of our being that is ever-present and always seeking to awaken in us.& And in so doing, we become transmitters of a profound faith in life, and then the world begins to change.&”

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL&’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.& TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE ON WWW.PERSONALLIFEMEDIA.COM TO HEAR DUNCAN&’S DIALOGUES WITH RUPERT SHELDRAKE, DR. ANDREW WEIL, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, MARC BEKOFF AND JANE GOODALL, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program, or a CD or MP3 of the complete dialogue with myself and Richard Moss, you can contact me at my website:& www.livingdialogues.com& or at [email protected].& Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.& All the best, Duncan

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Marc Bekoff.& We need wildness, to be the beings who we are, the beings who have evolved in our niche, if you will, on the planet.& Everything is interconnected, and so if you sever those tight bonds, something&’s going to happen, and I think what&’s going to happen is we&’ll move away from the animals, and we will miss them much more than they&’ll miss us.

Duncan.& Well, Marc, I can&’t agree more, and I must say that the specialness of our world is something that keeps inviting us into its embrace, and it&’s up to us to trust ourselves and our own nature enough to meet and accept that invitation.

Marc.& Duncan, it&’s always so great to be on your show.

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL&’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.& TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE ON WWW.PERSONALLIFEMEDIA.COM TO HEAR DUNCAN&’S DIALOGUES WITH RUPERT SHELDRAKE, DR. ANDREW WEIL, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, RICHARD TARNAS, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

In a prior dialogue (scroll down on this site), Richad Tarnas, quoting C.G. Jung, spoke of the anima mundi, the soul of the world, of the cosmos, that animates us all.& In this dialogue, one of several I have done with my good friend Marc Bekoff over the years, we amplify the insights shared by Marc and his co-author Jane Goodall (one of only ten Ambassadors for Peace named by the U.N.) in their book The Ten Trusts.& These center on the evolutionary imperative that we allow ourselves to learn to re-awaken our natural and joyful expression, &“following our bliss&” in the words of Joseph Campbell.& As green architect Bill McDonough puts it:& &“Form follows function; function follows evolution; and evolution follows celebration.&”& Animals are among our most valued companions and teachers in this great adventure, among the &“endless forms most beautiful and wonderful [that] have been, and are being, evolved&”, as celebrated in the last paragraph of Darwin&’s On the Origin of Species.& Trusting and embracing them, we trust and embrace ourselves and all that is.& In Marc&’s words:& &“To survive and continue to evolve, we need to increase our compassion footprint as we reduce our carbon footprint.&”

To order a full transcript of this program, or a CD or MP3 of the complete dialogue with myself and Marc Bekoff, you can contact me at my website:& www.livingdialogues.com& or at [email protected].& Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.& All the best, Duncan

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Duncan Campbell:& Rick, one of the great gifts that you're giving us here as we read through this wonderful work "Cosmos and Psyche", we do all get "intimations of a new world view", as you humbly say. Not proclaiming "this is how it is", but these are possibilities that if we join in together in awareness, we can make a future of the kind that we want in this evolutionary journey.

Rick Tarnas:& Duncan, as always it&’s a pleasure to speak with you in your program.& You bring an extraordinary capacity for insight and clear articulation of quite complicated ideas.& So it&’s a pleasure to have the dialogue with you.

In this Part 2, Rick and I talk about the little-known extensive use of depth astrology by C.G. Jung in his clinical work and his realization that the collective unconscious functions as a kind of anima mundi, or world soul, evolving and maturing over time as it is energized through various cosmic constellations.& We also give examples of some archetypal constellations that have repeated throughout history with amazing synchronicity – such as the alignments in the paradigm-shifting 1960-1972 period and the previous similar combination in the energy field of the 1787-1798 period, which saw the creation of the United States, the French Revolution and the Mutiny on the Bounty.& We discuss the planetary alignments and the energies of 1981-1984 and their recurrence in 2001-2004, which were also present at the beginnings of the Vietnam War (1964-67) and World Wars I and II.& As in the traditional arena of our individual psyche, the point of having such cosmic awareness, particularly in turbulent times, is to consciously identify the larger archetypal patterns at work in the individual and collective psyche, and to transform and enact their possibilities in the most life-enhancing and conscious way.& (This was effected, for instance, by the worldwide anti-nuclear war demonstrations in the &“1984&” Reagan era, when in response the U.S. shifted to open negotiations with the &“Evil Empire&”, rather than continuing to fall back into the era&’s &“we = good; other = evil reactivity and nuclear escalation of the Cold War).

SUBSCRIBE HERE FOR FREE TO LIVING DIALOGUES AND IN THE COMING WEEKS HEAR DUNCAN CAMPELL&’S DIALOGUES WITH OTHER GROUND-BREAKING TRANSFORMATIONAL THINKERS LISTED ON THE WEBSITE WWW.LIVINGDIALOGUES.COM.& TO LISTEN TO PREVIOUS RELATED DIALOGUES ON THIS SITE, SCROLL DOWN ON THE LIVING DIALOGUES SHOW PAGE HERE ON WWW.PERSONALLIFEMEDIA.COM TO HEAR DUNCAN&’S DIALOGUES WITH RUPERT SHELDRAKE, DR. ANDREW WEIL, JOSEPH CHILTON PEARCE, DEEPAK CHOPRA, CAROLINE MYSS, VINE DELORIA, JR., MICHAEL DOWD (THE UNIVERSE STORY OF THOMAS BERRY AND BRIAN SWIMME), STANISLAV GROF, AND OTHER EVOLUTIONARY THINKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

To order a full transcript of this program, or a CD or MP3 of the complete dialogue with myself and Richard Tarnas, you can contact me at my website:& www.livingdialogues.com& or at [email protected].& Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.& All the best, Duncan

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Rick Tarnas:& Duncan, it’s always a pleasure to talk with you.& Your knowledge of the fields we cover always makes the dialogue just flow so beautifully.& And also, there’s something about the very nature of a dialogue as you do it, that is a kind of parallel to the whole attitude towards life and towards the cosmos that I think certainly my book is trying to support.& And I think our whole spiritual challenge of our civilization at this time is to move into a more dialogic mode – with each other, with other cultures, between male and female, between generations, and between humanity and other forms of life, and with the cosmos itself.& So, in a sense, I think maybe what we’re doing here as a personal dialogue, and that you do with so many people who visit here in Boulder with you, is a kind of microcosm of this larger dialogical imperative really, that calls us in our time.

Duncan:& Well, thank you so much, Rick.& It is really a wonderful opportunity to celebrate all of us together with all of our deep listeners in an alive universe, and in a cosmos full of beauty and wonder and possibility.

In the Episode Description for the immediately preceding Dialogue (scroll down one program on this site) between myself and Dr. Stan Grof, I described the evolution of “depth archetypal psychology” in the past century as one of the key beginnings of a new and planetary world view.& In fact, each of the programs in the Living Dialogues series illuminates a facet of this emerging, infinitely-faceted diamond-like consciousness.& This “new paradigm” consciousness includes both a re-awakening to the depths of the psychic heritage of our species – that we live in an alive, communicative universe, very much as the original indigenous inhabitants of the planet understood – and an integration of that oft-neglected primal understanding with the additional essential complexities that have evolved in the individualistic “modern” mind as well.& In this particular dialogue with Rick Tarnas, we highlight the facet of “depth archetypal astrology” as reclaimed and so richly and innovatively reformulated in Rick’s monumental Cosmos and Psyche.& This makes a key contribution to the next step in our contemporary awakening:& leveraging and going beyond the integration of the core enduring insights of our indigenous and modern minds, to a conscious awareness that we are participant co-creators of reality in ever-evolving interactive dialogue with the cosmos itself.

To order a full transcript of this program, or a CD or MP3 of the complete dialogue with myself and Richard Tarnas, you can contact me at my website:& www.livingdialogues.com& or at [email protected].& Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program.& All the best, Duncan more.

My friend and collaborator in this dialogue, Dr. Stanislav Grof, stands very prominently in the line of C.G. Jung, James Hillman, Abraham Maslow, and others who have in very extensive and well-documented case studies taken psychology and psychiatry well beyond the conventional borders and confines of its cradle into the vastly expanded world we can now see unfolding within and all around us.& It has been the expanding premise of Living Dialogues from its own inception that the evolution of a new worldview is progressively beginning to dawn in human consciousness, birthed by a co-creative planetary sharing.& Hence we say “Dialogue is the Language of Evolutionary Transformation”TM.& Jonas Salk said in the latter part of the 20th century that we are entering a new “metabiological stage” of evolution.& We’re beginning to pay attention to consciousness itself and its origin, and realizing in many, many different ways as we join with many, many different pioneers that consciousness is not some accidental byproduct of the physical mass of the brain -- but, quite the contrary, consciousness is the very stuff and substance of existence itself.& And so, in that larger perspective, what we’re really about is I think an initiatic crisis of the species, of the human being itself -- needing to go beyond the old conventional, narrowly reductive and “monisticly” materialistic scientific models of what we understand reality to be.& Although not yet penetrated into the general mainstream culture, quantum physics and discoveries in the biological and other sciences in the last 80 years have already greatly changed and expanding our models of reality.& In his “opening the veil” on the psyche in the West in the late 19th and early part of the 20th century, Sigmund Freud was a pioneer then, but his attempt to put his insights into the “hard science” mold of the day kept them confined in the box of the personal biography, with a somewhat mechanistic model of his categories of id, ego and superego.& Where we have gone since and where we go next on this amazing journey is the subject of this dialogue.& And stay tuned in the next two weeks here on Living Dialogues for a continuation of these themes with our mutual friend and fellow consciousness pioneer, Richard Tarnas. more.

Duncan and Frances cover a number of key transitions of the last four decades, and why we are again now in "the best of times and the worst of times", the opening lines of Charles Dickens’ A Tale of Two Cities. These are times of strife that require both a revolutionary and evolutionary shift -both of consciousness, and from that naturally- evolved action. ‘Frankie’ describes the awakening and shift that happened to her in her twenties that resulted in her writing what became the 1971 three-million-copy bestseller Diet for a Small Planet. In between that time and her sixteenth and just-published book Getting a Grip: Clarity, Creativity, & Courage, she and Duncan intersperse personal tales of inspiration from five continents, including their separate life-changing meetings with Nobel Peace Prize winner, Kenyan Wangari Mathai. Uncertainty and fear are revealed as pure energy that we have the power to transmute now into a new 21st century form of living democracy through inner and outer dialogue. More details on this episode go to http://www.personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode029-frances-moore-lappe-evolution-of-living-democracy.html more.

In this age of uncertainty, fragmentation, and even despair, people yearn for certainty, but too often settle for adolescent polarizing, exclusivistic worldviews and understandings of reality that we see reflected in our time of penetrating globalization in tremendous political animosities, religious and ethnic warfare. The great 14 billion year Epic of Evolution, inspired by the telling of Thomas Berry and Brian Swimme, is a deep and coherent story which evokes meaning with an all-encompassing appreciation and wonder. It is a story which contains all stories, and which literally englobes all of the cosmos, excluding no one and nothing in creation. And in that way, illuminated by the "public revelation" of sciences from around the world in the last 300 years and ancient wisdom traditions, this Great Story - that matter, energy, and consciousness are one ongoing complexifying, unfolding, emergent process that we are all part of -- has the power to unite and deepen both science and religion in a new evolutionary worldview. It can unite peoples everywhere in a planetary identity, and orient us -- as cells do in a larger entity everywhere in nature -- to align our self-interest with that of our neighbors and the planet itself. Michael’s telling of his own transformative journey from his early years as a fundamentalist "evolutionary inquisitor" to his traveling the world now with his wife Connie Barlow as "evolutionary evangelists" is an enactment of this story. The big challenges of global warming, peak oil, the spread of terrorism, and the growing gap between the rich and poor, in this view are all seen as evolutionary catalysts, with a positive outcome we may create together in our lifetime. More details on this episode go to http://www.personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode028-michael-dowd-the-epic-of-evolution.html more.

This dialogue is one of a three-part series Vine Deloria, Jr. and I did on the occasion of the last of his books to be published during his lifetime, Evolution, Creationism, and Other Modern Myths -- released at approximately the same time Vine received the prestigious Wallace Stegner award from the Center for the American West in Boulder, Colorado. As stated in the attached Episode Page to this dialogue in the highly informative biographical summary entitled: "In Honor of Vine DeLoria, Jr. (1913-2005)": "Vine Deloria, Jr. was one of the foremost authors, scholars, intellectuals, and civil rights leaders of our time...He was to the Native people a social reformer who was in every way the equal of a Cesar Chavez or Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr." Vine was named by TIME magazine as "one of the eleven greatest religious thinkers of the 20th century". In our conversation, many of the aspects of the rich and co-creative interplay possible between the indigenous and modern minds that can - and, in my view, must - take place in our evolutionary development are illuminated with a kind and original brilliance and humor. This was and is a truly rare opportunity to "see into the evolutionary spiral" from a deep inter-cultural and elder perspective, supporting each of us in generating an ever more holistic vision. More details on this episode go to http://www.personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode027-vine-deloria-jr-evolution-spirit-indigenous-mind.html more.

In Part 1 of this two-part dialogue we laid the historical and conceptual foundations of our collective evolutionary project, not unlike those before us who labored to co-create the great physical architectural hymns such as the vedic temples, gothic cathedrals, etc. Now in Part 2, as we continue this project together, we see how to let go of the scaffolding necessary at the beginnings of various spiral stages of human evolution, and at the same time preserve the essence and nurture the best of each stage. New insights arise within the dialogue regarding historical examples such as the Western Renaissance and movement from feudal to democratic modern societies, and contemporary evolutionary challenges such as the various competing warrior, traditional, and modern subcultures within war-torn Iraq, revealing personal and policy ways forward toward planetary awareness and self-governance from an integral and dialogic perspective. More details on this episode go to http://www.personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode026-steve-mcintosh-integral-consciousness-part-2.html more.

Looking at history, we can see that large-scale social progress has almost always been made through the emergence of new sets of values and expanded perspectives that provide a new view of the world, "transcending and including" the most enduring of the values of prior worldviews. As is and has been for fifteen years the underlying theme of all the Living Dialogues with Duncan Campbell, we can thus see that in this century a better and sustainable future will come to us as together we participate in co-creatively midwifing this new latest "evolutionary" worldview into existence. By your deep listening participation in these two dialogues with myself and my good friend and colleague Steve McIntosh, you will be directly a fellow co-creator in exactly this process. Part 1 of this two-part dialogue lays the historical and conceptual groundwork, as we embark on this building project together, not unlike those before us who labored to co-create the great physical architectural hymns such as the vedic temples, gothic cathedrals, etc. More details on this episode go to http://www.personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode025-steve-mcintosh-integral-consciousness.html more.

In this Part 2, Duncan and Marianne elaborate on the need referred to in Part 1 for each of us to appreciate and support one another’s "greatness" (or innate divinity), rather than to look outside ourselves for a charismatic teacher, CEO, leader, etc. In much the same manner as stressed by Matthew Fox in Program 9 of this Living Dialogues podcast series with respect to "original blessing" vs. "original sin", Marianne points out that The Course of Miracles proclaims that ego projects guilt onto everyone, rather than celebrating our primordial innocence and goodness. We are led to conclude that at this time in history we must find new ways of seeing things, new ways of being, new and better insights - in short, we must make a quantum leap inside ourselves. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode023-marianne-williamson-gift-of-change-part-2.html more.

In this inspiring and wide-ranging conversation, Duncan and Marianne dialogue about Marianne’s early life and her eventual grounding in the ecumenical vision expressed through The Course in Miracles. As with Larry Dossey, MD in his recent book The Extraordinary Healing Power of Ordinary Things (see Program 2 of this Living Dialogues podcast series), Marianne stresses the role of optimism, a kind of “positive denial” that affirms a larger reality than the pessimism of surface appearances, especially in these times. When we know (not merely believe) that the material plane is not the end, we resist the material plane less and appreciate it more. Duncan refers to the deep meaning of Joseph Campbell’s famous advice to "follow your bliss", in which by attuning our awareness to the cosmic source, we "find the Grail", and the limitless energy of the universe flows into our being. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode022-marianne-williamson-gift-of-change-part-1.html more.

In Part 3 of this continually interesting three-part comprehensive dialogue, Duncan and Joseph Chilton Pearce explore recent scientific discoveries regarding the cellular, neural, and "field" aspects of the human heart, which confirm the early prediction of Rudolf Steiner nearly a hundred years ago that by the end of the 20th century humanity would have discovered that the heart is not merely a muscle, but a profound source of evolutionary intelligence. Although surprising to our conventional understanding, these new discoveries also elaborate on the poetic understanding that "the heart has its reasons which reason cannot (by itself) know", showing the intimate connection between the state of our heart and the state of our mind, and the consequences of remaining in a fragmented and overly individualistic consciousness. More details on this episode go to http://www.personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode021-joseph-chilton-pearce-evolving-heart.html more.

In Part 2 of this immensely interesting three-part comprehensive dialogue, Duncan and Joseph Chilton Pearce explore the evolution of the adaptive human brain with the appearance of the pre-frontal lobes, going beyond the reptilian, limbic (emotional), and neo-cortex tri-partite brain functions to enable us to go beyond our limiting cultural conditioning to a transcendent awareness. This transcendent awareness will enable and express a planetary unifying worldview, without which large parts of our species may not survive. As Joe points out, no culture in human history has had a higher rate of young people attempting or committing suicide than what we witness today. More details on this episode go to http://www.personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode020-joseph-chilton-pearce-evolving-brain.html more.

In Part 1 of this immensely interesting three-part comprehensive dialogue, Duncan and Joseph Chilton Pearce explore the themes that have permeated Joe’s astounding body of work, beginning with The Magical Child, The Crack in the Cosmic Egg, Evolution’s End, leading up to the radically revealing worldview in The Biology of Transcendence, embodied in the statement: "culture is the enemy of biology". And, from Joe’s definition of "culture", our acculturated conditioning is seen as opposed to evolution itself, as humanity is called to go beyond its modern and post-modern mind "either-or" consciousness to a "both-and" awareness capable of holding wholeness and diversity at the same time. As Joe puts it, we are hard-wired by our very brain and heart biological evolution to transcend our self-limiting contemporary culture-induced consciousness and realize our true humanity and divinity. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode019-joseph-chilton-pearce-culture-vs-civilization.html more.

In this Part 2 Caroline and Duncan expand upon the implications of the quantum leap of consciousness we are being called to by what Duncan calls "the evolutionary imperative of our time" and Caroline describes as the call for a movement of enlightened spiritual souls to make a difference in the world. As Caroline puts it with her customary penetrating directness: "The New Age is middle-aged and needs a makeover. We’ve had fifty years of exploring this new age human consciousness movement, and it’s not new any more". What’s next is what this dialogue memorably explores. more.

In Part 1 of this amazing dialogue, Caroline describes in detail the miraculous revelation she received in her connection with Teresa of Avila, the beloved 16th century mystic and author of the revered spiritual text, The Interior Castle (as newly translated for our time by Mirabai Starr). These revelations became the source of her insights in this new book into the contemporary "mystical renaissance" that is going beyond the "New Age" and responding to the pull of evolution itself. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode017-caroline-myss-entering-the-castle.html more.

Part 2 of this very personal dialogue continues the exploration of "how to be in the world and not of it" by being connected to and immersed in life-giving community. The deep meaning and sense of "satsang" is directly experienced and felt. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode016-gangaji-diamond-in-your-pocket-part2.html more.

"I’m Gangaji, and I’ve just spent a wonderful hour speaking with Duncan Campbell on his beautiful show Living Dialogues - keeping the flame of truth alive. And I’m really honored to be a part of it and I’m grateful that this is alive and functioning so beautifully. What a great mind you have, how much you can hold in your mind. That’s great! Such a great connection!" This is a highly illuminating dialogue on the ever-present paradox of "how to be in the world and not of it", drawing on the personal biographies and experiential insights of Gangaji and Duncan through the critical civil rights and anti-war movements of the 60s through the many conflicts world-wide in our time. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode015-gangaji-diamond-in-your-pocket-part1.html more.

A unique intimate dialogue with Katie and Stephen about how they met, how they came to collaborate and marry, and the back-story of the evolution of this highly-praised new book, extending the power of The Work, as Katie gives her contemporary reflections on the timeless Tao Te Ching in its best-selling and most widely appreciated English translation by Stephen. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode014-byron-katie-stephen-mitchell-a-thousand-names-for-joy-part2.html more.

A unique intimate dialogue with Katie and Stephen about how they met, how they came to collaborate and marry, and the back-story of the evolution of this highly-praised new book, extending the power of The Work, as Katie gives her contemporary reflections on the timeless Tao Te Ching in its best-selling and most widely appreciated English translation by Stephen. More details on this episode go to http://www.personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode013-byron-katie-stephen-mitchell-a-thousand-names-for-joy.html more.

In this Part 2, Duncan and Deepak go beyond the book itself and connect the story as told in the book to larger contemporary contexts, including the nature of mind and consciousness in relation to the latest discoveries of quantum physics, and how the spiritual quest and understanding in our time adds new liberating dimensions to those explored by Herman Hesse in his mid-20th century classic Siddhartha. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode012-deepak-chopra-buddha-part-2.html more.

In this Part 1, Duncan and Deepak weave the story of the Buddha’s life into a variety of contexts, including the cinematic images inspired by Deepak’s conversation with his friend Shekhar Kapur, director of the 8 Academy-Award winning film, Elizabeth. The story as told by Deepak hews closely to the various historical accounts of the Buddha’s life, while being compellingly recounted as imagined "from the inside", since we all have the buddha, the "awakened one" within us. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode011-deepak-chopra-buddha.html more.

Deepak Chopra’s transformational The Book of Secrets is a crystalline sharing of the insights and wisdom accumulated over the lifetime of one of the great spiritual thinkers of our time. In this intimate, creative and open dialogue - beginning with a beautiful description of the gift given Deepak by his father in his death that catalyzed the book - Deepak and Duncan explore the secret underlying all of the various revelations: how profound transformation is available to each of us right now, and how its key is to be found in our own life experience. Joining in this dialogue through the immediacy of your deep listening opens the portal. You will feel a shift. More details on this episode go to http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode010-deepak-chopra-book-of-secrets.html more.

From Thomas Berry, author of The Universe Story: Matthew Fox may well be the most creative, the most comprehensive, surely the most challenging religious-spiritual teacher in America. He has the scholarship, the imagination, the courage, the writing skill to fulfill this role at a time when the more official Christian theological traditions are having difficulty in establishing any vital contact with either the spiritual possibilities of the present or with their own most creative spiritual traditions of the past. In this brilliant dialogue relevant in so many ways to the current national and international political landscape and illuminating a way forward, Matthew and Duncan explore the mystical river underlying all the Christian, Hindu, Judaic, Buddhist, Islamic, indigenous and other wells that access that source. In the process, the dialogue covers the role of imagination and creativity, the return of dance and music in experiential awakening in indigenous peoples and rave-inspired spiritual ceremonies such as the cosmic mass, and the deep definition of personal warriorship. More details on this episode go to http://www.personallifemedia.com/podcasts/living-dialogues/episode009-matthew-fox-one-river-many-wells.html more.

Rupert Sheldrake, one of the world’s most innovative thinkers, has revolutionized modern scientific thinking with his morphic field theory, lucidly and cogently summarized for the layman in this dialogue. Here we also understand morphic fields as they relate to our ordinary everyday life and the key role they play in the contemporary planetary revolution in consciousness. This is the central evolutionary drama of our time: the awakening realization, filling out the essential insight known to indigenous and ancient wisdom cultures, that we exist as part of a living, developing universe with its own inherent memory. And in this dialogue we open to the excitement of how each of us can consciously participate in the ongoing co-creation of this alive universe. more.

Dr. Brian Weiss -- a graduate of Columbia University magna cum laude and Yale Medical School -- like other classically trained medical doctors Andrew Weil, Larry Dossey, Deepak Chopra, Stanislav Grof, and others, has a scientific bridging credibility in his pioneering work in the Western understanding of the invisible world in this case, the world of past and future lives. In this rich dialogue, full of references to documented case studies and intimate personal stories from around the globe shared by Brian and Duncan, the clarity and relevance of the reality of past lives and the ability to access future events unfolds with a rare persuasiveness. Whatever your present ideas about past and future lives, you cannot help but be amazed and enriched by this masterful conversation. Your sense of what is real and what the future of our planet may hold for us will not be the same 30 minutes after you begin listening. more.

As Rupert and I discuss in the this fascinating dialogue, his morphic field theory goes beyond the range of other invisible fields accepted by modern science, such as the field of gravity and electro-magnetic fields, and in my view provides a very useful explanatory framework for quantum phenomena (such as non-locality) observed in our macro everyday world. An oft-quoted example is the hundredth monkey phenomena whereby a monkey on one island begins a cultural innovation, washing his food before eating. Other monkeys on the same island, in monkey see, monkey do fashion, begin imitating the first monkey, and wash their food before eating. At a certain critical mass of such behavior on this first island, monkeys on island 2 out of sight thirty miles away also begin to wash their food before eating. more.

Dr. Brian Weiss -- a graduate of Columbia University magna cum laude and Yale Medical School -- like other classically trained medical doctors Andrew Weil, Larry Dossey, Deepak Chopra, Stanislav Grof, and others, has a scientific bridging credibility in his pioneering work in the Western understanding of the invisible world in this case, the world of past and future lives. In this rich dialogue, full of references to documented case studies and intimate personal stories from around the globe shared by Brian and Duncan, the clarity and relevance of the reality of past lives and the ability to access future events unfolds with a rare persuasiveness. Whatever your present ideas about past and future lives, you cannot help but be amazed and enriched by this masterful conversation. Your sense of what is real and what the future of our planet may hold for us will not be the same 30 minutes after you begin listening. more.

In this extraordinary, fearlessly intimate and heartful conversation, Judy Collins talks about her family life, the death of her beloved son by suicide, and her refusal to deny or attempt to banish its reality. She beautifully expresses her passionate and learned advocacy of changes to the acculturated attitudes toward suicide that cause prolonged and unnecessary suffering among all those concerned. The openness and depth of this conscious conversation is an example of the power of true dialogue to uniquely illumine both heart and mind. In the course of it and as it comes to a truly transformative and surprising conclusion, deeply revealing observations of hidden and healing patterns come through Duncan and Judy that were not apparent to either of them before the dialogue. It ends with a recording of Judy’s ballad “Wings of Angels” written for her son after his death (see Judy’s bio summary attached). To order a full transcript of this program, or a CD or MP3 of the complete one hour pair of dialogues with myself and Judy Collins, you can contact me at [email protected] or at my website: www.livingdialogues.com. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan more.

This dialogue on The Soul of Rumi is a great embodiment of the experience and value of dialogue, showcasing Rumi's life and poetry as a perspective of timeless wisdom and inspiration. For those unfamiliar with Rumi, the 13th century Sufi poet born in Afghanistan who lived most of his life in Turkey, this program will be a great introduction, and a "feast" for the great many around the world already deeply appreciative of his work. In recognition of the worldwide inspiration for transformation created by Rumi in evoking the spirit and experience of unity beyond religious, cultural and ideological boundaries, UNESCO has proclaimed 2007 as “The Year of Rumi”. As noted in my prior dialogue with Larry Dossey, M.D., Rumi has remarkably become today, for example -- 800 years after his birth in 1207 -- simultaneously the most-listened to and revered poet in Afghanistan and the most-published poet in America. His continually growing popularity in the U.S. is due in large part to the incomparable translations by the great American translator and poet, Coleman Barks. This then is a link to the co-creation of a "dialogue consciousness worldview" that Living Dialogues is promoting and holding space for. Because Deepak Chopra has made a CD read by himself and various other well-known individuals of Rumi poetry, this program also serves as a bridge to the next dialogue in our PLM series. To order a complete transcript of this program, or a CD or MP3 of the full 90 minute dialogues with myself and Coleman Barks on “The Soul of Rumi”, or “Rumi: The Book of Love”, or “The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthy Reflections of Bahauddin, the Father of Rumi” – or to order the complete 8 CD set including a one hour Valentine’s Day special on Rumi: The Book of Love, you can contact me at [email protected] or at my website: www.livingdialogues.com. more.

In this program with Larry Dossey we dialogue about a number of ways not normally associated in our culture with "medicine" or "going to the doctor" that we can use to be and stay healthy, vital, optimistic and curious in our life, including the role of music in healing and our experience of joy. I conclude the dialogue by quoting an intoxicatingly celebratory poem quite a propos of this entitled "The Music We Are" by the 13th century poet Rumi, which begins "Have you heard? Winter is over". Bridging seemingly very different worlds in space and time, leaping ahead more than eight centuries and spanning all the way around the globe, Rumi is today simultaneously the most-listened to and revered poet in Afghanistan -- where he was born -- and the most-published poet in America, thanks to Coleman Barks' translations and Deepak Chopra's CD of Rumi’s poetry. This amazing phenomenon, as I say in the program, gives us grounds to believe that a new, evolutionary "planetary consciousness" and sensibility is indeed emerging beyond national and ideological differences, and that we are all co-creators and midwives of this emergence as we engage in true dialogue with one another. more.

Andy's reference in the program to bringing medicine back in connection with the natural world is both a lead-in to the second dialogue (with Larry Dossey, M.D.) in this free subscription series and fits my own visionary worldview referred to in the course of this program, in which I describe the evolutionary imperative of developing a mature planetary consciousness at this point by: (i) reactivating our indigenous heritage of being embedded in an alive, conscious natural universe, (ii) bringing that reawakened awareness from the "childhood" of the species forward through our individuated, innovate but fragmented, modern mind consciousness (which has sought to empower our human species over and against Mother Nature in an archetypal "adolescent" developmental process), and (iii) integrating both in a higher, mature "third consciousness" planetary in scope. This "third consciousness" as a "Sacred Marriage" of the balanced essence of prior feminine and masculine (indigenous and modern) stages of evolution, the "hoop and the tree", can then engender a new holistic awareness capable of holding together in paradox and harmony both unity consciousness and the infinite diversity of individual manifestations at the same time -- without the either-or polarization of the negative, narcissistic side of the adolescent-like modern mind which have the effect of killing off diversity in the name of growth, creating conflict, ecological and ethnic destruction, enforced "unity" through assertive ideological domination coming from insecurity, etc. This species-wide evolutionary development trajectory (with different groups and cultures at different stages of adolescent mind at any given time, like older and younger siblings) from adolescent rebellion, attempts at domination, polarization and rejection of the wisdom of Mother Nature, forward to maturity is reminiscent of Mark Twain's remark: "When I was 14, I couldn't believe how ignorant my parents were, and when I turned 21 I was amazed at how much they had learned in seven short years." Andy Weil and I also dialogue specifically in this program about the Boomer Generation's redefining the nature of aging and "retirement" into something more self-aware and socially conscious as well. I quote the phrase "America the Wise", the title of the widely-acclaimed book by Theodore Roszak (who had written the ground-breaking “Making of a Counter-Culture” about the Boomers in the 60’s), and then I talk about how we cannot create a wisdom civilization without effectively creating a generation of wise elders. Such a generation of wise elders will provide, as I describe in other dialogues, the presently non-existent basis for what Erik Erikson called the "ethical dialogue" between wise elders and youth necessary for the health and very survival of any civilization, what I call the "evolutionary imperative". In this regard, Andy and I in this first program also dialogue about how "healthy aging" ideas are relevant to people and audiences of all ages, and go beyond the confines of our current youth-obsessed culture to create a balanced and sustainable intergenerational and creative dialogue from teens to nonageneraians and beyond. There is also material here in this first program that will serve the Boomers in very practical ways as they relate to their aging parents. To order a transcript of this program, or a CD or MP3 of the full one hour dialogue with myself and Andrew Weil (including Part 1 on Dr. Weil’s book Spontaneous Healing), or if you have any questions or comments you’d like to send me, you can contact me at [email protected], or at my website: www.LivingDialogues.com/ContactDuncan. Many thanks again for your attentive deep listening in helping co-create this program. All the best, Duncan. more.