Episode 5: Sacred Orgasm with Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs

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Dr. Patti Taylor interviews Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs, best-selling author, publisher, and pioneering thinker, on his latest thinking on Sacred Orgasm. In this amazing show, you'll discover sacred orgasms: amazing energetic experiences that feed and nourish our souls. Learn about the range of sacred orgasms possible. Ray's intensive training and experience in sexology, massage, and spiritual energy traditions, led to his frustrations with conventional western definitions of orgasm. Discover how Ray channels a new, more useful and expanded definition of orgasm that fits with both his experience and that of many others. Find out how transformative orgasms supplement both procreative and romantic orgasms. Learn about the various bodies each of us has, some of which are deeply nourished by, and require orgasmic energy. You'll discover how sacred orgasms feed the soul, what you can do generate them, and the benefits you'll reap. Learn ways to develop and further this path, regardless of where you live. Finally, hear Ray portray the beauty of a true soul-body orgasm Discover how valuable these sacred energy orgasms are to your body and spirit! And find out how easily you can generate these orgasms for yourself with astonishing results!

Transcript

Sacred Orgasm: Dr. Patti Talks to Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs

Announcer:  This program is intended for mature audiences only.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Hi, I'm Dr. Patti Taylor.  In this amazing show, you will discover sacred orgasms, amazing energetic experiences that feed and nourish your soul.  Learn about the range of orgasms possible.  You will discover how valuable these sacred energy orgasms are to your body and spirit.  And find out how easily you can generate these orgasms for yourself with astonishing results.

[Music]

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Welcome to the Expanded Lovemaking show.  I'm your host, Dr. Patti Taylor, and I teach people how to make love.  Today on the show we are talking about sacred orgasms, and we are going to be learning to think about and experience orgasms in an entirely new way.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  It's a pretty awesome experience being out in the mountains and just connecting with the energy around me.  And having a light explode in the center of my head.

It feels like soft cotton candy.  Like we are in this cotton candy balloon.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Our guest is someone who has been a foundational cornerstone in the world of sex education for many, many years - Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs.  He is the author of many, many books, including one book very relevant to our show today called ‘Sacred Orgasms’.

So, welcome.  And I'm going to call you Ray, if that's OK, since we have known each other for some time.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  That's fine.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  So welcome, it's great to have you here.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Thank you.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Ray is a best-selling author.  He wrote the book ‘Erotic Massage’ which has sold over three quarters of a million copies, as well as a host of other best-selling books and videos.  He is the founder and president of Secret Garden Publishing, which sells wonderfully orgasmically friendly products worldwide.

Ray is definitely a pioneer in his field.  He wrote ‘Erotic Massage’, not to be confused with other books on the same title, almost 20 years ago.  It was the first book of its kind.  Many of Ray's books and DVDs are the first of their kind.  And they are extremely popular because they are the first of their kind and well ahead of their time.

Ray has served and taught widely in the profession.  He is currently the Vice President of the Association of Sex Education Professionals.  He is loved and respected everywhere he goes.

Ray, I am so happy to have you here with us today.  I think our listeners want to hear about sacred orgasms because they may already be having them and not realizing it.  Or they may be eager to know about them so they can start having them.

So today we will ask Ray to define secret orgasm, to tell us what kinds of experiences are possible and why he calls these orgasms sacred.  So Ray, today I want to talk to you about what orgasm means to you, what kinds of experiences are people having, and why are some orgasms considered sacred.  Let's start.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  OK.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  What does orgasm mean to you?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Well, I think of orgasm in a different way than is currently defined by the predominant definition.  The predominant definition is from Masters and Johnson, coming out of the late 60s, in their book ‘Human Sexual Response’.  They did a great deal of laboratory research and came up with physiologic characteristics associated with people having an experience that they were calling orgasm.

They found some general patterns such as pelvic floor contractions.  That is one of the most predominant patterns associated with orgasm.  But if you remember the literature before that, in Kinsey’s research, studies and other writing, it was climax, it was orgasm, and it was much more loosely defined.  Since the late 60s, with the influence of Masters and Johnson the idea of orgasm pretty much is a physiologically based perspective of what people would say is orgasm.

With my background in Tantra and meditation and other traditions, I was having a number of experiences and hearing from other people about events that they were having in relation to their sexuality, not even in their general sense of sexuality.  And they were calling them orgasms.

So I started looking at this.  I really thought that I wanted to broaden the definition from just a physiologically based perspective.  I think of orgasm as an energetic experience, that basically generates energy.  So my perspective is one that is an energy generating model, which is different than just a pleasure model, which is much more of a common idea.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  OK, so now are you saying that most definitions of orgasm would be inaccurate or just incomplete?  Or do you just have one that is an additional definition that you think is more useful?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  I think the perspective for me at least, thinking of orgasm as an energy generating experience, is a different characterization. It is more useful for looking at this if we are going to talk about something called sacred orgasms.  I think maybe the best way to put this in a quick context, from my observation there are more or less four models of sexuality and orgasm in our culture.

One is called a procreation model.  The function of sexuality is to procreate, which is a quite valid model.  It's not really focusing on pleasure.  It's focusing on reproduction.  It's very common in some religious traditions. 

I grew up in the flag-top fascist 50s as I call them and most of the films and movies back then really didn't show anything about what we would call sex as we think about it today.  But there were couples kissing.  It was much more a romantic model of sexuality, which is very much an aspect of our sexual desire to court, to be with another person.  So the romance model of sexuality is a very valid model.  But I think it's incomplete as well.

I would say probably the predominant model for most people today of sexuality is what I would call a sexual pleasure focus.  The purpose of sexuality is to have great, enjoyable, sensations, hot, passionate sex.  It may or may not include romance.  It may or may not intentionally include creating offspring.  But the main thing behind sexuality is to have pleasure.

These are all very valid models, and very useful models.  There is nothing wrong with them.  But as I started studying Tantra and other meditative and ceremonial approaches to sexuality, I really began to feel that there is another important way of looking at sexuality.  I call it transformative sexuality.  Some people have called it sacred sexuality.  Some have called it energetic sexuality, where sexuality is a way of expanding our awareness, our sense of connection with God/Goddess, and our beloved is a representation of a deity.  It is a way of connecting with the energies throughout the universe, and having a cosmic orgasm.

If I want to look at orgasm and define it simply as a physiological event, it really lacks something for me.  It makes sense to me to look at orgasm in a different way; if I start to look at it in connection with something we call Tantric or sacred sexuality.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Well, this sounds very exciting, these energy generating orgasms.  It doesn't sound like they are mutually exclusive.  It sounds like you can have all of these kinds of orgasms, which is nice, because I think a lot of us want to have romance and procreate.

But these energy generating ones, what kind of energy is it?  We are generating this cosmic energy.  To we generate this alone or with a partner?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Well, both.  But my perspective on orgasm includes something that people call sexual orgasm.  But I take a perspective that as a human being we are more than a physical body. 

We have other bodies in a sense or other energetic systems that are maybe not visible.  The common one is referred to as chakras or kundalini.  In my perspective, we are made up of 10 bodies or 10 energetic systems, of which the physical body is just one.  Four of these different bodies - that is just a language I'm using - can have orgasms.

They are different types of orgasms.  The sexual orgasm is what we have with the physical body.  What I call a light body orgasm is like an energetic explosion that does not require erection or sexual arousal, although it may concur with a sexual activity.  It can be an explosion in the center of the head, in the chest, in the pelvis area or some people call it a full body orgasm.  When one has this type of orgasm it is throughout the whole physical body, and even extends beyond that.

Now, a lot of friends were talking about situations like this.  It doesn't simply fit the Masters and Johnson physiological perspective of orgasm.  So what I just mentioned to you before, a moment ago was about the four different models of what sexuality is.  I even think there are four different bodies that can have orgasms.  They have very different experiences associated with them.

Those of us who are just focusing on having intercourse or oral/genital or manual/genital activity are most likely to have what we would call a sexual orgasm.  They are absolutely wonderful but from an esoteric point of view there are other types of orgasms, which may or may not coincide with sexual activity.  Yet they still feel explosive or some sort of a connection that I would say are generating experiences.  In a moment, I will tell you about why I call that sacred.  But I am thinking about different types of orgasms that aren't even considered as orgasms by some people.  But most people don't even have these other types of esoteric experiences.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  I think we have time for one more quick question before the break.  How many people are having these light body orgasms presently?  Are they common?  Are they accessible to some people?  Do you see them around?  Are they possible to achieve?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  I think they can be achieved easily once you learn how to do it.  Some people use intense breathing.  Some people use breathing and different body postures or breathing and massage.  The way that I focus on it is simply sending energy to a partner and a partner sending energy back. 

That takes longer to experience it.  My first ones were in conjunction with intense breathing.  I thought I was passing out.  It was like an explosion in my head.  There was nothing happening with my genitals.  It wasn't even in a sexual context, but it sure felt like an orgasm, though I did not have an erection.  And I did not have an ejaculation.  It had a different type of pleasure to it.

This is more available to us than most of us think about.  But not many people are teaching it.

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Dr. Patti Taylor:  Well, thank you.  On this very exciting, interesting, fascinating note, we are going to take a short break to support our sponsors.  This is Dr. Patti Taylor, and I am with Ray Stubbs.  And we will be right back.

I would like to say that you can find out more about Ray Stubbs, and his work at secretgardenpublishing.com.

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Dr. Patti Taylor:  We are back.  I'm Dr. Patti Taylor.  We are talking to Ray Stubbs about sacred orgasms.  Before the break we were talking about, what orgasm means to you, Ray.  I want to ask you now about what kinds of experiences are possible for people to have with sacred orgasms.  We were just sort of getting into that before the break.  So maybe we can just continue along with that. 

You were saying that people were having different kinds of experiences, and not even realizing that perhaps they were having these energy orgasms, because they didn't have a name for them.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Exactly.  See, we live in a culture where the physical and, I would say the spiritual and the profane, or the spirit and the flesh, the sacred and the secular are considered not only different, but in opposition.  It's really hard to think something that is associated with a sexual activity, called orgasm, could be had by a celibate mystic, such as St. Teresa of Avila, about the 15th or 16th century in Spain. 

She was having all these energetic experiences.  Her body was moving and she was doing cartwheels of different descriptions.  The first time I heard about that I thought, “Oh, she's having an orgasm.”  This is many years ago.  And I kept hearing things and hearing ideas, and I began to put it together.  This is not uncommon to mystics. 

But within a religious context in which so much of us have grown up in where sexuality is not a part of our spiritual expression, it is antithetical.  It would be hard to think of something like that as having sex with God, as being sex.  So we need to draw that paradigm that the sexual and the spiritual are in opposition.  We have to realize that there have been many cultures throughout humankind that have incorporated ceremonial sexuality and orgasms as a part of the divine expression.

If we go to a church like the Pentecostal church today, where people get happening and really rocking and rolling and getting in the groove with the primordial beat from the organ and the piano.  People are singing and shouting.  The minister is saying something and the audience is singing back.  Huh, huh, huh.  I've seen this happen, where someone just flops out and falls on the floor, shaking all over.  People come over and fan this person who has fallen down.  They help him or her back to their feet.

They say they really caught the spirit.  Well, that most likely, and I have seen this happen, in a traditional Christian religious context, some people would call this an orgasm, where the person had a pelvic floor contraction at the same time.  Or they had what I call a light body orgasm.  It's hard to say.  But those explosive moments could indeed be considered orgasms.

But these are only two of the four types of orgasms that I think about.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  So, your point is that we have narrowed the definition of orgasm to the place where only a very small segment of our experience is ‘allowed’ to be labeled an orgasm.  Yet a lot of our ecstatic, wonderful, amazing experiences really might be orgasmic experiences.

So, what do you think, do you think the world would be a better place if collectively people would be able to and allowed to own having an orgasmic experience right now, even if it's not ‘sexual’?  Is that where you're heading with some of this?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs: Yes.  Now, how to change the world - I've pretty much given up on the fundamentalists out there in the world.  But as far as our old world and our own personal experience relating to other human beings, relating to the divine, the sacred, I have had a lot of experiences.  Even doing a meditation once with a crystal, where I had a pretty awesome experience being out in the mountains and just connecting with the energy around me.  And having a light explode in the center of my head.

The value of this is that if we can relate what is a part of our sexual lives with what is part of the rest of our lives, it's much more empowering.  I'm talking about these orgasms as generating energy.

If I can go ahead to the question about why orgasms are sacred?

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Absolutely.  We're just going to mix it all up here.  Sure.  Go ahead.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  All right.  The idea is that orgasms generate a primordial type of energy that is very pure.  This is a type of energy that is needed for certain of our ‘bodies’ - given my conceptual framework of different bodies - these bodies need energy too.  For our physical body we have to eat our spinach, have our apples, get sunlight, drink water, and we get energy from that.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  So, each of us has, I think you said four bodies or 10 bodies, and certain numbers of our bodies need this orgasmic energy as fuel.  It's like we need this orgasmic energy.  Why do we need this energy?  What does it do for us?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  This type of energy that fuels the particular bodies or systems that are particularly related to our connection with other dimensions, with what we might call God source Goddess - for those different types of bodies to develop, they need energy.  But sunlight won't do it.  Not to any major extent.

Orgasm is what I am proposing.  Certain types of orgasms, including sexual orgasms provide and in a sense generate a certain type of energy, a very primordial type of energy that feeds these types of systems or bodies.  This enables us to have a more profound spiritual experience of existence.

Related to this idea is that religions that attempt to make sexuality something sinful or abhorrent are religions that tend to control the individual.  They make us great worker bees.  But for those of us who are mystics, you want to have a direct connection to the divine, however we might image that.

I am proposing that sexual orgasms, and these other explosive types of what I call light body orgasms the way I have just described, actually generate an energy that these other bodies can use, which enables us to be more and more aware of the divine, in each other, in other dimensions.  It's a rather esoteric perspective, and we can't cover it completely in this short time here.  But I'm pointing in the direction just for people to consider the possibility.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Yes.  Well, let's go back to something that, just to ground here for a moment maybe people, again could do to practice or to meditate on, to take this into their lives.  I'm sure our listeners might be getting very inspired by this point. 

Are there some suggestions you might want to give someone?  I know you have written ‘An Essential Tantra’ and elsewhere on lots of things.  That's one of the books on the secretgardenpublishing.com that they could actually buy from you.  But maybe you could just offer something.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Surely.  I do want to say that the book ‘Sacred Orgasms’ in its second edition was combined with two other books and is now produced as ‘The Essential Tantra’.  So that book, ‘Sacred Orgasms’ is no longer available specifically as that title.  But it is a part of a larger book, ‘The Essential Tantra’.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  That’s true.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  But basically, this is a very common practice that is taught in a lot of Tantra seminars where you sit or lie across from your partner.  You can gaze into your partner's eyes.  You go into breathing in unison.  But the whole idea is that without doing physical movement, without having explosive, lusty, passionate interaction with your partner, you take the time to just be with your partner. 

This is very common in certain types of meditation seminars.  It's a way of beginning to have what I call spirit/body orgasm, which is not explosive.  But you have a sense of your energy fields literally becoming one with each other and expanding. 

When I do this with a person and they are doing it in reciprocation with me, whether they are sexual partners or not, I perceive, after a little bit of time it's almost as if there is an energy field on a balloon around each one of us.  And it expands outward to encompass the other person’s energy field. It feels like soft cotton candy.  Like we are in this cotton candy balloon.  The energies are very soft. 

But that is still what I would call a spirit/body orgasm.  That is my languaging.  That is an energy generating process.  But, in terms of a practical sense of making love with someone, it brings us into being very present with each other, dropping the world, honoring and feeling connected to the person, slowing down.  Then you might then move into more what we consider a sexual interaction with the physical bodies coming together -touching, smelling, tasting, caressing each other to the point, perhaps of having orgasms or multiple orgasms or multiple ejaculations for that matter.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Wow. That is so beautiful.  You know, I have actually done that exercise, leading that.  And I have to say, that everyone in the room had very different experiences.  They all actually were mind blowing, and very spiritual.

So there is eye gazing, but if it is done, “Well, I'm going to eye gaze.” - you know, that's not what you're talking about.  But when you talk about dropping away, and the way you put it, just going into that full presence and allowing the ‘now’ to really be there and letting that ballooning of spirit just fill out, it can be astonishing.  It can set the stage for the most amazing sensual experiences or anything to happen after that.  It's beautifully put.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Let me add one thing here - the way I would teach that given my particular way of doing it.  I would say, “You want to send energy to your partner”.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Oh, that's true.  I remember that.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  I just briefly gave a perspective a moment ago.  But my perspective is that your partner is there and you gradually hold the intent of expanding your energy field to encompass theirs, not just staring in their eyes, not just breathing in unison, but it really focuses on the intent to expand your energy.  And, of course to perceive your partner's energy being expanded to include you.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Do you do that for any length of time or do you just intuit how long in either direction?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Well, in a book that I am working on, I am really talking about a systematic practice but just doing something like that with your partner, I would say for three or four or five minutes just to be present.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  One way and then the other, or do you do both ways at once?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Both ways at once.  This is –

Dr. Patti Taylor:  I have to say I did it.  And it rocks.  It's totally spiritual and a phenomenal experience.

So we are going to take another break to thank our sponsors and hear from them.  Again, we are talking with Ray Stubbs.  Do check out secretgardenpublishing.com to find out more about Ray Stubbs and his great body of works.  He has done some great stuff in a variety of fields.  So just going to his website is a treat.  All the stuff is beautiful and fascinating.  And we will be right back.

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Dr. Patti Taylor: We are back.  And I'm Dr. Patti Taylor.  We are talking to Ray Stubbs about sacred orgasms.  Before the break we were talking about what kinds of experiences are possible with sacred orgasms.

Now, I would like to talk about some orgasms are considered sacred.  This sounds like what we were talking about.  What do you see with people who have been working with this practice?  Just some practical examples in your life.  Have people changed much as they have done some of this stuff?  How has it changed their life?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Well, my thought on this is that there is no simple solution.  There is no simple technique that's going to make you go to bed on one side and wake up on the other and be transformed.  It really is a path that it is often a path that will stop and start, meander this way and it will meander that way.

It's like the old, old rivers.  The old rivers were not straight.  They meander all over the place.  It takes a focused, I would say series of lifetimes, to really - see, the idea here is that we develop all these 10 bodies using orgasmic energy in different ways.  It is a way of, over time, becoming what some people would call an enlightened being.  There are many different names for this.

So my sense is, and this ties into another type of orgasms that I talk about - I call the soul/body orgasm.  When I am referring to the soul/body part of ourselves, that I call the soul/body, that is the part of us that is a portal to other dimensions or where the God or Goddess or deities or angels exist, however you want to contact conceptualize that.

While we are meditating with our partner, sending energy, in a sense, to our partner, and it is reciprocal, we also have the sense of “I am a one with all that is” or oneness.  We have a sense of, as we make love, I am making love to all of existence.  This is hard to fathom, given again that we think about sexuality as something that is antithetical to our religious spiritual experiences.

But in many cultures, where they have similar sexuality, they call on the deity to provide abundant crops, for example.  And I see that sexuality and orgasm are incredibly powerful catalyses for our, what we called spiritual development.  The dance of energies in an intimate sexual context with another is available to us in all parts of our lives.

Now that can be really heavy for some people, because that sounds like you're having sex with anybody and everybody.  Well, the truth is, energetically that is happening.  We are energetically connected with people that we feel good about, negative about, people that we are working with in the work place, people who we have as friends, and when we are having a beer at the bar, when we are in a seminar, when we are meditating in a circle, we are energy dancers.

Learning to do this energy dance in a very intense way with sexuality with a sexual partner is one of the most powerful and effective ways to learn how to dance with energy.  Then we can take that out into other parts of our life.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  So Ray, you have written many, many books.  You have done amazing DVDs – ‘Magdalene Unveiled’, the amazing DVD ‘Woman of the Light’, an amazing book about sexual bringers of the light and information.

So, there are listeners here who live in all parts of the world.  How does someone who wants to be on this path and who hears what you're saying - and you're saying that everybody's path is so unique - and maybe they are inspired by what you say, maybe they are wondering, “Well, I want to use this orgasmic energy to generate and feed my soul/body and have soul level orgasms.”

What would be their next step?  What would you suggest?  What advice could you give our listeners to cross their own path?  Are there any general ideas that you might share?

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Well, I think for most of us, we would probably start with a book or a DVD, at least to get a sense of this when you're first considering this.  I do think a live teacher is a more effective way once we feel like we want to go further into this. 

In the West, a lot of classes are increasingly taught called Tantra.  Of course there is a wide variation in the experience, background and competency of people called Tantra teachers.   There is Bridoshka.  There is Taoist.  For me, starting back in the late 60s, early 70s, I really had to go to spiritual teachers, who didn't talk about sexuality on the one hand, go to sexuality classes on the other hand, and put it together myself.  Literally, that is what I had to do.

Now, I think the ancient role is reemerging.  I talk about this in the book ‘Women of the Light’ and the documentary ‘The Sacred Prostitute’, which is a part of ‘Magdalene Unveiled’.  There are more and more practitioners and teachers providing this knowledge experientially with couples, individuals, and in a group context.  They often refer to it as sacred sexuality, or some variation of that concept.  In some parts of the world you would never hear about any of this.

But then again, I can go to an African dance class in the US, and I'm sure it would happen in Africa, where it is built into the dance.  It maybe is not called that it is not conceived as that.  And I don't mean just African, also Native American dance with the drum.  I would say when people get into a ceremonial context that's when the most valuable ways come, even if you can't find anything about sexuality.

Start simple.  If you live in California or New York or a few places it's easier to find these teachers.  It's easier to find teachers like this in Europe.  I don't know what's happening in South America or Asia.  I'm sure somewhere in India there are places and teachers on the mountains. 

It's a tough one because we have such a sex negative culture and a very limited view of what our sexuality is.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Well, thank you.  I love that you talk about the ceremonial context and actually that is a part of your book on ‘The Essential Tantra’.  You talk about ceremony.

So we only have time for one more question.  So I was just thinking, one of my most absolute favorite things I have ever heard you talk about is your description of a soul/body orgasm.  So I was wondering, for your final thought with us if you would be willing to share, a description of one that you have witnessed.  It could be the one that you saw in Cocoon or another one.  But just what it is like, one of anyone that you have seen from somewhere; just to give us an idea of how it changes every one.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  What I am calling a soul/body orgasm has been the most elusive of the four general types of orgasm about which I am talking.  With the spirit/body orgasm, I feel a oneness, a merging energy with another person.

If it also expands, and I feel like I am connecting with all that is, that's when I am going to begin to understand how the two are different.  Both of them are very subtle.  They are not explosive, earth shattering, volcanic type orgasms.  They can be in conjunction with an explosive type of orgasm.  I think that takes more and more meditation and ceremonial practice of sexuality to experience that.

But it is like I am with another person.  We are sending energy to each other.  But there is a sense that my energies are listening to, feeling everything in all of existence.  That's the best language I can give.  It's far beyond my partner and myself.  I'm not talking about going into a deeply altered state, where I don't recall anything happening.  I'm talking about feeling like I am here and I am everywhere.

It's a very, very expensive type feeling.  It is subtle.  And it is sweet.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Wow.  I think we are just going to close on that note.  Thank you very much Ray for joining us and sharing your wisdom and insight and greatest thinking with us.

Dr. Kenneth Ray Stubbs:  Thank you.  It's been my pleasure to celebrate the divine as they call it.

Dr. Patti Taylor:  Absolutely.  Please do check out secretgardenpublishing.com to learn more about Ray Stubbs and the variety of wonderful things he has done.

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Dr. Patti Taylor:  I'm Dr. Patti Taylor.  If you have questions, you can always e-mail me at [email protected]  Do join us next week on Expanded Lovemaking when we talk to Joseph Kramer.

That brings us to the end of our show.  I thank you for listening.  For text and transcripts of this show and other shows on the Personal Life Media Network, please visit our website at personallifemedia.com.

This is your host Dr. Patti Taylor.  That's all for now.  I remain yours in ever-expanded lovemaking.  And I will see you next week.

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