Episode 15 - Arouse and Thrill Her through Foreplay, Coreplay, and Moreplay with Ian Kerner

Arouse and Thrill Her through Foreplay, Coreplay, and Moreplay: Dr. Patti Talks to Ian Kerner, Celebrated Sex Therapist

Announcer: This program is intended for mature audiences only.

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Dr. Patti Taylor: Welcome to the expanded love making show. I'm your host Dr. Patti Taylor founder of the expanded love making show. I teach people how to give and receive way more pleasure than they ever dreamed possible. Today on the show we are talking about "She Comes First" gratifying your woman through foreplay, coreplay and moreplay. Our guest is Dr. Ian Kerner author of the best selling books "She Comes First" and "He comes next," two of the hottest and most comprehensible guides you'll ever read on the arousal and stimulation; oral, manual and emotional of your partner.

Dr. Ian Kerner: When I'm working with patients I've heard this at least a thousand times, "I can be lying in bed right next to him or her and I feel like I'm a million miles away."

Ian: You know there's a cliche that men are lights on and women are lights off and I've actually found in my practice that a lot of men want to see a lot more during sex and a lot of women want to see a lot less or be seen a lot less.

Ian: It shows that when it comes to fantasy we're probably more similar than different and I think fantasy and mental stimulation really goes a long way in facilitating the process of arousal so the more you can do to stimulate the mind and imagination the better.

Ian: Everybody always talks about sex becoming routine and needing to add novelty needing to add a new position or a new technique. In fact, thats not what you need to add. The novelty that usually needs to be added is a mental novelty.

Ian: Oral sex, in some sense it makes sex easier for men and it's a very intense act; it's very intimate, its very emotional, its very sensual; there's tastes and smells. So, I think in a lot of ways it can intensify sex and ultimately make it easier.

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Patty: Welcome Dr. Kerner.

Ian: Hi there Patti. How are you?

Patti: Good. Can I call you Ian?

Ian: Absolutely.

Patti: Ok. Great.

Patti: So, In addition to being a widely sought after media guest and a prolific writer, Ian has a thriving sex therapy practice in New York City. We're extremely lucky to have you here with us today.

Ian: It's my pleasure. Thank You.

Patti: We're going to discus how to bring a woman orgasmic delight. We'll focus special attention on the techniques of oral pleasuring and then you will see why I am a total raving fan of Ian's. We'll learn some real secrets on timing, pressure and the best frame of mind for delivering this pleasure. Ian you're one of my heroes and our listeners are in for a real treat. As an additional treat we're doing a book give away promotion which I will tell you more about at the end of the show. So, lets get started. Ian, your a certified sex therapist. Is that correct?

Ian: Correct.

Patti: So, in your book you reveal some personal motivations for getting into this kind of teaching based on your own struggles.

Ian: Absolutely. I didn't start out intending to be a sex therapist. I really started out as a patient in sex therapy in my mid twenties. I was in various relationships with women and I guess I felt like my sex life was one long episode of lost. I just didn't have a clue and in particular I really suffered from a problem; premature ejaculation, which is an issue that I receive sometimes hundreds of emails a day on from men. It's sort of like a quiet sexual epidemic. I think erectile disorder, what with viagra, levitra and cialis tends to get all the media awareness but actually way more men suffer from premature ejaculation and feel extremely crippled by it. So, like many men out there I was sort of living a life of quiet desperation. I think when all is not right in the bedroom it really effects whats happening outside of the bedroom. So, I really kind of wanted to develop my sexual self-esteem and fix my relationships and so I went into sex therapy. I just found it to be an incredibly life transforming process in terms of getting to talk about these issues, getting some really credible information and insight as well as learning about what I can do to improve my love making skills.

Patti: I'm deeply touched by that because when you've been there yourself, then I think that really makes you so much more compassionate about what people do go through when we want to please our partner and you really understand how important that is that desire to want to give pleasure to a partner and that's a really major issue for people out there.

Ian: Yes, I think it's really hard to talk about sex. I think as couples we're used to talking about everything under the sun from our futures, our lives, what you want to do, how to budget and plan finances, but when it comes to talking about sex, which is arguably one of the most important dimensions of a relationship, we're tongue tied. That's why as a result when I'm working with patients I've heard this at least a thousand times, "I can be lying in bed right next to him or her and I feel like I'm a million miles away."

Patti: Well, I have to say, I am absolutely a raving fan of your books. Every page is just chocked full of advice. I'm just going to cherry pick some of my total favorite things. So, were going to hone in on the woman here. I love "He Comes Next" too, we're gonna just start with "She Comes Next" maybe I'll have you back here soon, soon, soon! So, let's focus in on the woman. You say that for the woman, women are really much more orgasmic than maybe a lot of women maybe may think they are and that it takes maybe 20 minutes for a woman to get to the point where she is orgasmic. Maybe, women don't think they are as orgasmic as they might be and that after those twenty minutes only about 7.7% of women fail to have an orgasm. I think that's a pretty astonishing statistic.

Ian: Absolutely. I want to revise that thinking a little bit to say some studies have shown that when women are masturbating and they are self pleasuring they are able to reach orgasm more quickly than when they are with a partner. I think that has to do with two things; one, knowing how to touch themselves and how to provide the direct persistent clitoral stimulation that will lead them to orgasm and I think also generally when masturbating, being in an environment that is relaxing and non pressured and you don't have to feel like you're preforming. So, it's really those two dimensions I think, persistent clitoral stimulation as well as being relaxed and comfortable that go hand in hand with the female orgasm. Male sexual response is quite different. Men can be under tremendous stress or pressure and still have an orgasm. The male brain, and we can talk a little bit about this more because there is a big difference between the male brain and the female brain during sex, parts of the male brain are highly active during sex whereas in women, the same parts of the brain literally deactivate. So, I think that male and female sexual response while similar in many respects also has some different characteristics as well.

Patti: I want to stay focused on the women. I did notice that "He Comes Next" is a very different book than "She Comes First" and I was quite taken by that. We're going to focus. Let's go back to the woman, what happens to the woman during orgasm and to her brain. Let's go with that.

Ian: There's a part of the brain both men and woman have, the amigdala, which is an area of the brain that's associated with outside stress and anxiety and high emotion and there's a new technology out there called SMRI scanning. It's sort of like your standard MRI but it's much more highly detailed and granulated. A bunch of scientists that are interested in attraction and sex have been scanning male and female brains throughout the process of sexual arousal. One study in particular found that the closer a woman gets to orgasm parts of the amigdala literally deactivate and shut down. So,what that basically means is that for a woman to have an orgasm parts of her brain have to deactivate and the way to get those parts of the brain to deactivate is too not feel stress; too feel relaxed, to feel comfortable, detached and disconnected. You know, there's a cliche that men are lights on and woman are lights off and I've actually found in my practice that a lot of men want to see a lot more during sex and a lot of women want to see a lot less or be seen a lot less. I think the cliche is that women are more lights off very often because of something to do with body image, which may be true but I think it also has something to do with this process of brain deactivation because when you are in the dark you can relax more and you can disconnect and you can go more inside of yourself. The other interesting thing is that woman fantasize during sex more than men. I've done a lot of research on my own with patients in this area and theres been a lot of findings too that during sex men are much more engaged in whats going on; visually, sensually. Women tend to fantasize a lot during sex. often times, not about the person that they are having sex with. I think again fantasy goes hand in hand with daydreaming; which goes hand in hand with getting your mind off a lot of the issues that might be pressing and getting to that point of mental deactivation. I would say for all the guys out there listening, one of the main things you can do to turn a woman on is to actually help her turn off. By that I mean turn off her brain. Women out there listening I would say, you need to be a little more take charge and a little more empowered about setting up an environment for yourself when your having sex, where you really can feel good about yourself and you really are feeling relaxed and detached.

Patti: Ok. Great. We're kind of slipping right into the foreplay here and what your saying is you don't just dive for the genitals, if you really want to get into the foreplay we want to do engage these fantasies and the imagination. Could you maybe give us an example of what that might look like?

Ian: I think that fantasy really is important and the mind really is our biggest sex organ. I've done studies on male and female fantasies and I've had men and women write down fantasies. I did this with a class of students and then removed any gender references so you didn't know if a fantasy was being written by a man or being written by a woman and in the end you couldn't tell the difference. It was impossible to say this was really a mans fantasy, or a womans fantasy. So, it shows that when it comes to fantasy were probably more similar than different and I think fantasy and mental stimulation really goes a long way in facilitating the process of arousal so the more you can do to stimulate the mind and imagination the better. It could mean sharing a fantasy together, it could mean role playing, acting something out, it could mean reading a piece of erotica, it could mean talking dirty, it could mean watching some porn together. Whatever it is, it could mean going out and dancing and flirting with other people, whatever it is that a couple can get your mind stimulated and turned on. I think one of the best things a couple can do ,but whats often the hardest, is to get to that place where you are comfortable enough to have that kind of mental relationship with each other. Where you feel like you can say something to your partner without being judged and a lot of women and men, more women than men, sometimes say "I'm really uncomfortable sharing a fantasy with my guy, I'm afraid he's going to think I'm kinky or freaky" or this or that. "What can I do to break the ice?" I have a very simple ice breaker. I always say to tell your guy that you had a really sexy dream about him last night and you could say "It was really crazy, it was really sexy and I take no responsibility for my dreams," I guarantee you that a guys going to be interested in hearing more and it's just a simple fun way to start sharing your fantasies.

Patti: Well, I really love you saying that because, what your saying is "Hey, whatever floats your boat is really cool and good and going to contribute." I think there's something in our cultural world view that a lot of people have been taught that somehow fantasy is wrong, or that she doesn't love me if she needs fantasy. What would you say to those people? I mean have you heard that before?

Ian: I hear that all the time and you know the more a person comes from a background that has religious values or conservative values the more likely someone is going to be afraid of their own fantasies. Fantasies really very often break social norms and fantasies are taboo for a reason and you really have to understand that fantasies are not reality. Fantasies are not action. People often talk about wanting to turn a fantasy into action, you know make a fantasy happen but then it really becomes something else and it really sort of defeats the purpose of fantasy. For all those couples who are comfortable sharing their inner worlds with each other I would really encourage them to revisit that conclusion because sooner or later what happens is sex starts to become mechanical, sex starts to become routine. I mean, if you look at male and female sexual arousal; in women a visible sign of arousal is often lubrication, although that's not the only sign, in men it's often a hard on and an erection. There are two ways to get aroused. You can get aroused by touching your genitals, and that will become reflex stimulation. You touch your genitals long enough, or you touch somebody else's, or you let your genitals get touched long enough and somethings gonna happen. On the other hand theres also mental stimulation; psychogenic stimulation. You can get completely turned on, completely aroused almost to the point of orgasm; just by talking, just by visual stimulation or oral stimulation. By oral, I mean auditory stimulation. So, for all of those people who are basically not talking, not sharing, not joining their mental worlds, they're really sort of short circuiting the arousal process and they're ruling out a very very important component of arousal which is psychogenic stimuli.

Patti: Well, you're preaching to the choir here. I've been using verbal enhancement for years and I'll just say to my husband for example he'll be getting into it and I'll be pleasuring him and I'll go "Oh wow, hey, the whole cheeerleading team just showed up" or "Ooh that cute new waitress" or "Who's that knocking on the door" or whatever or I'll bring in some fantasy I'm having. If it ever bothered him in the past, I would say "Hey, I'm here with you honey." Thats what matters. I think if he ever had a problem with it, he got over it when he saw "thats right, she's here with me." If you're touching him or stroking him and he's stroking you, you can just kind of laugh about it. It takes about one day and you realize "we're together" and the turn on goes up. I think thats what really matters in the long run. The turn on and the dates get hotter as a result.

Ian: Absolutely. Everybody always talks about the sex getting routine and needing to add novelty needing to add a new position or a new technique. In fact thats not what you need to add. The novelty that usually needs to be added is a mental novelty; a psychological novelty. If you can actually couple psychological novelty with a consistent type of physical stimulation that works, thats the best combination because, I can't tell you how many times a woman will tell me "Oh I was sort of getting close to orgasm but then he pulled a new move on me and switched things up and I completely lost it." Thats another thing where a lot of guys often feel pressured to make love like porn stars and completely be changing things up. If they haven't had sex in ten different positions, they don't feel like they've really performed as a lover, but it's not actually about physical novelty as much as mental novelty.

Patti: Right, and now Ian your going into one of my absolute favorite topics which is continuity which is one of my total favorite topic. So, were gonna pause [music begins] to hear from our sponsors. So, please stay with us. This is Dr. Patti Taylor and were talking with Dr. Ian Kerner and we'll be right back. Check out Dr. Ian Kerner at his website iankerner.com. We will be doing a book give away by the way of "She Comes First" and we'll talk about this at the end of the show.

Female Announcer: Listen to a taste of sex live in an orgasm based community. A weekly online audio program where orgasmic innovators show the intricacies of their practice on personal life media.com [end music]

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Patti: We're back and I'm Dr. Patti Taylor and we're talking with Dr. Ian Kerner about "She Comes First" before the break we were talking about foreplay and I'd like to turn our attention now to moreplay. Ian can you talk to us about moreplay?

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Ian: Well, moreplay is really just a cute term that I dubbed because I like to joke that men are illclitorate. That they are lacking in sexual clitoracy and that men know more about whats under the hood of the car than under the hood of a clitoris. If guys got a little more clitorate they would start to rely on more than just their penis' too stimulate a woman. They would start to understand why it's important to take sex; such as oral sex, and manual stimulation that most guys normally think of as sort of an appetizer before the entre of intercourse and learn how to treat those acts as full meals so to speak.

Patti: This is why I'm so fond of you. You emphasize oral sex, why?

Ian: Well, as somebody that suffered from premature ejaculation, I know how hard it can often be for men to sustain arousal through a womans orgasm. As someone who treats a lot of guys who suffer from erectile disorder, I know how performance anxiety can often cripple one's sexuality. Basically, I wanted to make sex easier and I wanted to sort of tell guys to think outside her box a little bit and learn that the name of the game. When it comes to stimulating, a female orgasm is not necessarily penetration but stimulation. Stimulation of the vulva, because all the nerve endings that contribute to the female orgasm are basically located on the surface of the vulva and require stimulation much more so than penetration. I think that oral sex, in some sense, makes sex easier for men and it's a very intense act, its very intimate, its very emotional, its very sensual, theres tastes and smells. I think in a lot of ways it can intensify sex and ultimately make it easier.

Patti: Well, I love what your saying about that. So, of course, your preaching to the choir here. I'm just wondering what do you say to people that have never tried it or who might be shy?

Ian: It's interesting because I definitely encounter men who are newbies and there's a cliche of sorts, of men often not being interested in it or being repulsed by it. I have to say that's really rare, the man who's not interested or not intrigued and rare is the man who is truly put off, repulsed or has sort of a psychological issue. Much more common, is the woman who has some sort of genital self esteem issues so to speak and feels like "Oh, I'm ugly down there" or "I don't taste right" or "I don't smell right" or "I take too long" and "he doesn't really like doing that" and so oddly enough, it's more often than not women who are troubled by having a man go down on them. A lot of women are also much better givers of stimulation than they are of receivers. I think when you look in all the womens magazines out there and all the sex manuals out there telling women, develop your signature blow job technique and this and that, a lot of women feel very very comfortable entering the skin of the giver or entering the skin of the wild sexual woman but when it comes to actually receiving and letting themselves be turned on, literally letting themselves orgasm with a guy, thats where a lot of women often get inhibited.

Patti: I'm glad you brought that up because I'm kind of an expert myself in the area of female orgasm in that I have found myself feeling very very shy and vulnerable when my own partner or new partner has offered to give me oral sex and suddenly I felt like I was one foot big and like "Oh really I don't know, do I know you very well." I mean it was a very intimate vulnerable experience and "Do you really want too" and "Do we really know each other very well" and all this stuff came up I sort of needed to work through. I wanted reassurance that things are going to go ok. That didn't come up for me in other contexts. I'm just glad that you said that this is a normal experience for the woman to have and that maybe a guy could just give her reassurance that he loves this. That really helps for me to hear that the guy was really enthusiastic and when I heard that then I was like "Ok." Well, if this really makes you happy, well then I want to make you happy." That was really helpful for me.

Ian: There's a part of "She Comes First," I haven't looked it over in some time, so I can't really remember it verbatim but there's a chapter called the conilinguist manifesto and in it I talk about the three assurances. I talked about this issue and that a lot of women are insecure about this and a lot of women have preconceived expectations. Men often have to work harder to let a woman know "Hey, I really want to do this because I enjoy it, it gets me off too, it turns me on" and "I'm not in any rush here and there's nothing about your taste or your smell that offends me, in fact, it's quite the opposite, it turns me on" and I think that certainly "She Comes First" was written to embolden men to be able to assure women in that manner.

Patti: Just speaking for myself again but, just because my partner may have reassured me once doesn't mean that I don't continually need reassurance because there's only now. So, maybe ongoingly we like that reassurance. I just wanted to put that out there for all the women out there listening and appreciating that. So, thank you for writing that. We can move on. Could you tell us about the kiss which is that beginning time, I mean I read it in your book and it was really beautiful. It really turned me on, if you could describe it. I just got so wet when I read about it.

Ian: Thank you. I think, I was talking about the first oral kiss. I was just saying to make the most out of it, to turn it into a moment that's sensual, that's teasing, that's tantalizing and also gentle and tender. Because, when men watch porn, which is one of the main places that men get a lot of their sexual information from, guys are sort of going at women like cobras at a mongoose. Especially, and this is something that I always emphasize to men and to women, that the process of sexual arousal, the process of sexual response changes over time. What may feel good later in the process might not feel as good very early in the process and the same holds true for men. So, I think whenever your dealing with an area that's as sensitive as the clitoris you have to be very caring and very loving and very tender and often take your cues from the woman in terms of increasing pressure and friction, intensity and all of that.

Patti: Yes, your book, really you could study your book because it really does talk a lot about the timing of things. Things are not the same in the beginning as they are in the middle of the experience in terms of pressure and timing and I've been underlining all the time because that is so true. A woman gets engorged mentally, physically, emotionally, psychologically and it really is very different at different steps along the way and it makes a huge difference.

Ian: Absolutely and for any guy who is unsure of his technique or what he should be doing I would say do less. Whether your working with your hands, working with your tongue, working with a sex toy like a vibrator, you could just provide simply a point of resistance and really let a woman establish her own rhythm and her own pace. When unsure opt for less.

Patti: I would agree with you and I think in our culture we have this viewpoint that more is always harder and faster.

Ian: um-hmm

Patti: You know, and actually when a woman gets more and more turned on she's supplying so much more feeling to the clitoris [xx] a man actually would technically have to do less, it would be more intense just to do less.

Ian: Oral sex is definitely a dance where women should be leading and I know thats a little counter intuitive and maybe odd to say but again when you think about the process and you think about, as you said, what's happening mentally and physiologically, emotionally and you think about the nature of clitoral stimulation it really makes absolute sense not for a man to do nothing but for a man to take his cues from a woman and let her lead the process.

Patti: Right, now having said that, I do want to say, you do give about, I don't know, ten or fifteen different dances here for recipes for phenomenal experiences that men and women can do together for understanding that there are all kinds of amazing things that you can do. So, maybe we could go over a few, maybe two different things, that you could do with the tongue possibly cause we do like variety now that we understand that less is more as a general principal there are times to go in and deliver once you've got her begging for more and teasing her and all of that. What are some things you could do with your tongue just for variety?

Ian: Well, certainly there are all kinds of different types of tongue strokes and you can certainly play with pressure on the clitoris. I think sometimes to start a rhythm and then break the rhythm can also be very powerful. So you start a particular technique and whether left, right, top to bottom what have you, you get a rhythm going and you stop the rhythm or you change it or you change frequency, intensity and it's the break in the rhythm that spikes the process a little and can often take a woman to the next level of sexual response. You think about establishing a rhythm and then breaking a rhythm. I think it's also knowing that there are tens of thousands of nerve fibers across the vulva, each of which respond to stimulation very differently. The inner labia, the lips might respond to nibbling a little bit, needing or pinching whereas the clitoral glans, the head of the clitoris might really respond at first to very gentle strokes but then too a much more persistent pressure and maybe started with your tongue but in the end I have this little technique I call the Elvis Presley snarl because you're kind of working more with your gum to apply pressure than with your tongue. I don't think they guy ever thinks about that, applying pressure with his gum during oral sex as opposed to with his tongue but again when you think about providing a very solid point of resistance at a certain point in the process of sexual response your gum might be much more pivotal than your tongue.

Patti: Right, so, [clears throat] excuse me, I'm collecting myself up here into a one solid mass here. Thats really hot. Thank you, very much. How long would it take someone who was just starting out to gain mastery. I mean, if they read your book and applied some of these techniques, is this something that is easy to learn?

Ian: I think it's, I think that, I mean first of all I you know am a big fan of, and this is just my own personal convictions, I make no judgments; I'm a big fan of long term relationships, monogamous relationships. I think the more that you get to really have that level of trust and intimacy with somebody the deeper and more satisfying the experience becomes. I don't think that sex necessarily has to become more routine. In fact it can become more powerful, more intimate. When you become more knowledgeable you really start to learn somebody's body and you start to understand how it works and that's where I think expertise really comes. It doesn't come in a vacuum just being a tongue virtuoso; a conilinguist, it comes from really knowing somebody and being in an engaged, active, deep, tender, intimate relationship. That said, I think if guys just understood a few basic principles about clitoral stimulation and understanding female sexual anatomy and understanding a little bit about creating a context for women to relax and for their minds to deactivate. I think a lot of men could get 75% of the way very quickly.

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Patti: Well, Thank you. We're going to take a short break right now to support our sponsors. This is Dr. Patti Taylor and I'm with Dr. Ian Kerner and we will be right back. Ian is the best selling author of "She Comes First" and "He Comes Next" and more. Check out his website iankerner.com.

Female Announcer: This program is proudly sponsored by life dance center. An integrated art dance institute providing life enhancing events, seminars, workshops and coaching; lifedancecenter.com.

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Patti: We're back and I'm Dr. Patti Taylor and we're talking to Dr. Ian Kerner about foreplay, coreplay and moreplay. Now, at the end of the show we are giving away ten copies of "She Comes First" so stay tuned for the details.

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Patti: Before the break we were talking about foreplay, now I want to ask you about moreplay. In my mind moreplay is where you have lots and lots of fun in all kinds of ways after the foreplay. I guess the kind of flow together. So, how would you define moreplay?

Ian: Well, the one thing that I would say is that all women have the innate potential to be multi orgasmic. After a guy has an orgasm blood flows very quickly out of his genitals and he returns very quickly to the prearoused state. In women, there's much more blood post orgasm there's much more blood circulating in the pelvic area and hence women really remain in an aroused state much longer. That's one of the reasons men often roll over and start snoring and women want engagement or they want to cuddle, or they want to talk, or kiss or be more connected. So, moreplay is for men sort of recognizing that what's happening in your body post orgasm really may not be what's happening in her body. It's not over until it's over and that means staying connected, staying in tune and in fact many women will say that it's their second or third orgasm which can come much more quickly and often right on the heels of the first orgasm so moreplay could mean developing a relationship that's more multi orgasmic. I mean, after all, my book was "She Comes First" but there's no reason it couldn't be she comes again and again and again.

Patti: [laughs]

Ian: So, moreplay might be about helping to develop sexual experiences that really tap that multi orgasmic potential or it's simply about you know staying connected. But, I think that men tend to be very orgasm focused and it's. Moreplay was really my way of saying, don't be orgasm focused be experience focused.

Patti: So, whats happening to a womans state of mind. We started out with the brain chemistry. She's probably in a really expanded state right now. Is her heart open, is she really loving, I mean is she going to be a hot date for the man. What is their love making going to be like regardless of what they do? Have you studied that?

Ian: Women produce very high levels of a hormone called oxytocin. Oxytocin is an emotional bonder. It's a cuddling hormone. It helps women during breast feeding, it helps with childbirth but it also helps facilitate emotional bonds during love making. Women produce easily 20-30 times more oxytocin than men. I think what that leads to is sexual experiences that are much more emotionally integrated. This is why often you hear women say in the beginning of a relationship they weren't orgasmic, they became orgasmic later in the relationship as they were falling in love or as they were relaxing and feeling more comfortable with the guy. We talked earlier about women who are comfortable receiving oral sex and I think again it might have something to do with women having producing very high levels of oxytocin during sex and during orgasm which functions as an emotional gate keeper. I would say that women can be in a highly highly expanded emotional state during sex and post orgasm and men also produce a hormone vasopressin which is similar to oxytocin, not as strong but also helps to facilitate a sense of bonding and a sense of connection. In both men and women post orgasm prolactin levels are very high which really contributes to that sort of sense of sleepiness and wanting to fall asleep in each others arms. Orgasm is definitely an emotional, physical, neurochemical cocktail that really packs a wallop.

Patti: Wow, it seems like I'm in the right business. So, if they went on to say lets say pleasure the man after this, would there or have intercourse would their sex be juicer, hotter, richer as a result of having had all this orgasmic energy?

Ian: I think so, I mean I think men naturally tend to heat up and cool down faster than women. I think to get into a place where a woman has been turned on and is orgasmic and even potentially multi orgasmic is to be in a more expanded emotional place and I think also for men the whole idea of showing some sexual courtesy and deferring your orgasm a bit to ensure hers is only going to contribute to the quality to the male orgasm because orgasms are really about two things, about blood flow into the genitals and about miatonia(sp), which is the development of muscular sexual tension throughout the body. The longer your going, the more blood that's flowing and lingering in the genitals and the more tension that is building throughout your body. The more pleasurable the release of that tension and the more pleasurable orgasms. I think all of this is not about men being some sort of sexual martyr for a womans orgasm. It's really about enhancing both partners experience of sexuality.

Patti: Well, I totally agree. whether it's a complete experience in its self to giving this great pleasure to a woman or whether it goes on to giving the man pleasure or intercourse it's just it's all a wonderful rich experience. So, have, is there any new books that come after "She Comes First" and "He Comes Next" or is this sort of like a little set?

Ian: Well, "She Comes First" and "He Comes Next" are a little set. We're actually going to be retitling "He Comes Next" because, as you noted Patti, they are very different books. I think that there's an expectation that they are going to be similar when in fact they're quite different. So, for paperback we're going to be retitling and I'm going to be revising "He Comes Next" a bit and it's going to be a little more of a stand alone book. I am working on a new book which will be coming out for Valentines Day '08' called "Sex Detox" and it's really written for couples who feel like over time there's been some emotional or sexual toxicity that's developed in their relationship maybe not communicating, maybe you're not having sex as much as you like, maybe there's incompatibility, maybe there's been infidelity or something like that and it's sort of a program to kind of take sex off the table for a little while in order to really bring it back on in a new way. So, it's sort of in the spirit of cleansing and fasting I sort of have a sex detox.

Patti: Well, thats really exiting Ian. Anything you do I can highly recommend. "He Comes Next" is just as good of a book as he comes first you know men and women are different. So, I've often wondered about, well gee these books are really different but men and women are different. So, we're almost out of time. I would like to ask you one final question?

Ian: Sure

Patti: If you could say one thing to men and women everywhere and knew that they would get it what would the message be?

Ian: That's a very interesting question. I would say to, I would say that relationships are built on trust and responsibility and predictability and those are very important aspects of a relationship but that sex and sexual excitement are actually built on a sense of danger a sense of novelty a sense of unpredictability so that you know to really have an exiting sex life that will enhance your relationship you have to think about a different path other than the normal traditional path that we think about in terms of just growing our intimate relationship. You really have to think about how can I be creative, saucy, naughty, whatever it is and sort of expand the danger zone a little bit in life, sex life.

Patti: Wow, Thank you very much. I'm inspired.

Ian: Thank you too. This was a pleasure.

Patti: Yes. I just thank you so much and I really personally want to thank you for writing "She Comes First." Now, I want to tell our listeners how you can enter our contest to win a copy of Ian Kerner's "She Comes First." I'm giving away ten copies of this amazing book. I'm going to post a blog entry about this interview. So, go to personallifemedia.com hit the links for blogs on the home page and you'll see my name under the blogs and you'll find the entry for Ian Kerner. I will pick my ten favorite blogs in response to my post in the upcoming month. So, I invite all my listeners to join the contest to win a free copy of this fabulous book. So, again, thank you, Ian for coming on our show.

Ian: Thank you, Patti. It was my pleasure and best of luck and I hope to be talking to you again soon.

Patti: Me too.

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Patti: Join us next week on the expanded love making show when we talk to a real life couple who like many of us started out knowing nothing on the subject but learned to put the practices of expanded orgasm into their life. This brings us to the end of our show. Thank you so much for listening. Please email me with any questions at [email protected]. For test and transcripts of this show and other shows on the personal life media network please visit our website at www.personallifemedia.com. This is your host, Dr. Patti Taylor. I remain yours in ever expanded bliss and I'll see you next week.

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