Episode 19: Neo-Taoist Perspectives on the Neurobiology of Bliss, Tantra, Technology, Transcendence, and More with Moses Ma, Neo-Taoist Practitioner

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In this fascinating show, Dr. Patti Taylor interviews Moses Ma, a modern day Taoist. Discover the unique range of Moses's experiences, starting with his years as a physicist, and then a Taoist practitioner, sleeping on a wooden board, balancing his mental and physical state to achieve a unitary peace of mind. But then what happened to lead Moses to seek millions in the Internet world? And then what led him to the study meditation and tantra yoga? Did he keep, and then reconcile, his bliss and balanced hormones with the harsh demands of a fast-paced world? Learn why Moses emphasizes balancing body, mind, sexual vitality, health, and awareness as a package deal. Discover the Taoist exercises he still practices. Find out: What is the critical mass of consciousness now occurring, that will cause all of society to awaken? Why is he so optimistic about his newest venture, The Spirituality Network, and why may this be the way modern seekers of transcendence meet their next teacher? Who are some of the hottest new teachers? And how will these teachers and masters differ, as they, too, adapt into a rapidly changing world? What's next? Internet Tantra?

Transcript

Neo-Taoist Perspectives on Health and Sexuality: Orgasms, Bliss, Tantra TV, Teachers, Technology, Transcendence, and More: Dr. Patti Talks to Moses Ma, Neo-Taoist Practitioner

Announcer:  This program is intended for mature audiences only.

[intro music]

Dr. Patti Taylor: In this fascinating show you’ll learn Taoist secrets to optimize male orgasmic fitness, hear about the powerful sexual healing taking place that’s changing people’s lives, and discover how you can recognize your next great teacher walking down the street or right over the Internet.

Moses Ma: Well what I was looking for, actually, is the ability to detach from addiction.  I think our greatest, you know Buddha said that pain is, pain and suffering are the realities of life and that the source of suffering is desire.  So naturally I looked at desire and was working on it very intensively, but then I realized that you can’t really go through the desire.  You can’t really extinguish the desire unless you actually go through with it.  So I realized that a more inclusive technique would just be to study things like Tantra and to integrate sexuality into the meditation practice…  What we try to do is balance the hormones, because if your hormones go up and down and are unbalanced, generally you’ll feel depression.  So what Taoists like to do is actually increase the strength of your container, so that the hormones go from, instead of sad to happy, they go from happy to extremely happy.  And you just are happy all the time.  And between that practice and a couple of healings that I received from very powerful healers, I basically entered this kind of state of bliss and I’ve been there.  So my favorite story about that is I met a really pretty girl and I was dating her.  I was like totally in love, and she, her name was Mary, so if that’s you out there… so what she did, which was the greatest blessing of all time was, she actually had another boyfriend at that time, that she had broken up with.  And he came back and wanted to marry her, so I had to break up with her.  And when she told me that, I’d been meditating so long that I actually could see my own body inside.  I saw my, this kind of inner body, reaching for the ‘sadness switch’.  You know and I realized that everything she said to me were just words.  They were just like vibrations and that I was actually causing the emotional reaction.  So I decided, well as an experiment, let’s not turn on that switch.  And that switch has been off, basically the last 20 years.  So generally I notice that every moment is actually filled with a kind of wonder and bliss and joy, and that as long as the hormones are balanced and you do basic exercises and you’re not in physical pain, that this feeling of completion, of the beauty of life, is there.  And that’s why this system is called “complete reality”, is because you actually see the complete reality of life through this system…  This new thing is the first new major religion to be forming in hundreds of years.  And that’s why I started studying it.  The first thing I did is I met a bunch of dakinis and I realized that many of them are actually in a state where they wrestle with real sexuality.  So instead of just making it theoretical, like you can’t have any sex and then thinking about sex, they actually are in the world where they can wrestle with the issues of sexuality, you know first-hand, in the trenches, so to speak, so I have great respect for many of the dhakas and dakinis that are creating this body of knowledge as we speak.

Dr. Patti Taylor: And the dhakas and dakinis are the people who are out there teaching men and women how to reclaim their sensual and sexual skills in their marriages and just in their love lives.

Moses Ma: Yeah, I think that there are many different… you know, my definition of enlightenment is that it’s not a noun; it’s a verb.  It’s like the word ‘education’…

[music ends]

Dr. Patti Taylor: Welcome to the Expanded Lovemaking show.  I’m your host, Dr. Patti Taylor, of ExpandedLovemaking.com, and I teach people how to give and receive way more pleasure than they ever dreamed possible.  Today on the show, we’re talking about neo-Taoists perspectives on health and sexuality, including orgasms, and-gasms, complete reality, and more.  Our guest is Moses Ma, a modern-day Taoist practitioner, who’s been teaching meditation and martial arts for over 30 years.  Welcome, Moses.

Moses Ma: Hi.  Thanks.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Hi.  Moses has been, among other things, a hit video game designer, an artist, a physicist, a renowned technology visionary, a martial artist, and an independent filmmaker.  He studied from many remarkable men, including the Nobel laureate physicist Richard Feynman, and the secretive Taoist master K.K. Chen, who accepted him into the complete reality system of Taoism 30 years ago.  But above all else, he is a poet and a simple meditation practitioner.  I’m pleased to have you with us today.  I think our listeners will be fascinated by your unique blend of perspectives.  You’ve studied physics and Taoism intensively with great masters, yet you’ve consistently pushed the cutting edges of business and technology as well.  So I want to hear how you’ve put this all together, the sex, the spirituality, the healthy lifestyle, the Taoism, and even the research on orgasm.  So let’s get started, and let’s start with the sex.  I think our listeners may hear the words ‘Taoist sex’, and immediately go to male multiple orgasms, rightly or wrongly.  So can you tell us about orgasms and possibly and-gasms?  What’s your opinion on all of this?

Moses Ma: Wow.  This is such an interesting subject.  Yeah, when I started studying Taoism many years ago, I guess maybe 30 years ago now, my teacher was from a traditional school of Taoism, and in that system you basically are celibate.  So I spent a long time training in a method that included complete celibacy.  So in that system, which is called the “complete reality school” you do these very interesting meditations for balancing your hormones, so that you can actually achieve a state of bliss and happiness in every moment.  And then you circulate this energy once it’s kind of gelled inside your system.  So when I first started it was a traditional system, and they even taught me techniques for not having wet dreams, so that you could… it’s called ‘sealing the lower gates’, so that you wouldn’t lose any energy.  And I had this model that I was taught, that if you have an ejaculation you’ll lose your energy.  And if you don’t have an ejaculation, you know, you’ll probably get prostate cancer, so it’s a lose-lose situation.  Then after going through that traditional practice, I found that a more middle pathway is to actually let go of that, and to see that instead of an orgasm, where you can lose energy or have fun, I realized that we should be seeing and-gasms, where you actually can have orgasms and increase energy.  And that is actually only limited by your thought patterns around that system.  So anyway, that’s where it started.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Okay, great.  So that’s really interesting.  So just for a bit of background, how long were you studying this Taoist system before you came to the realization that you wanted to kind of move on?

Moses Ma: Yeah actually I was in training, deep training, for maybe three or four years.  And I was fully celibate for one year of it, which is less than, you know many monks.  But it was enough for me.  The system was very interesting.  I actually slept every night on a board about 18 inches wide, three feet off the ground, so you would fall off if you ever went fully unconscious, so it forced you to be more conscious.  I never got to the advanced stage where you actually put ropes al over your bedroom and you sleep on ropes.  But I did that for a while.  What I was looking for actually is the ability to detach from addiction.  I think our greatest… you know Buddha said that pain is, pain and suffering are the realities of life and that the source of suffering is desire.  So naturally I looked at desire and was working on it very intensively, but then I realized that you can’t really go through the desire.  You can’t really extinguish the desire unless you actually go through with it.  So I realized that a more inclusive technique would just be to study things like Tantra and to integrate sexuality into the meditation practice.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Okay, great.  So I just want to follow this through.  Let’s put a date, a time on this… this was 30 years ago with K.K. Chan, and so you were in that for three or four years.  Did you ever achieve bliss in this system?  Did it work?

Moses Ma: Yeah, so the system is very… let me put it this way, when I started meditating, the very first year I did this I had all sorts of wonderful confirmatory experiences.  I would see lights.  I would feel bliss.  I would actually void state.  I would feel like I was made of glass.  And then after a year they passed away, so I didn’t get those experiences.  So I went to my teacher and I said, “You know, those confirmatory experiences have disappeared.”  And he goes, “That’s very good.”  Then I kept practicing for three more years and nothing happened.  And I said, “You know nothing’s happening,” and he said, “That’s very good.”  Then after five years I said, “Nothing’s still happening.”  He said, “Are you still meditating?”  I said, “Yeah, every single day.”  He goes, “That’s very good.”  After about ten years I realized that this meditation had actually entered my being and the fabric of my life, so that every moment was kind of like meditating, in a way.  And that every moment was blissful.  So this theory that Taoism uses is… What we try to do is balance the hormones, because if your hormones go up and down and are unbalanced, generally you’ll feel depression.  So what Taoists like to do is actually increase the strength of your container, so that the hormones go from, instead of sad to happy, they go from happy to extremely happy.  And you just are happy all the time.  And between that practice and a couple of healings that I received from very powerful healers, I basically entered this kind of state of bliss and I’ve been there.  So my favorite story about that is I met a really pretty girl and I was dating her.  I was like totally in love, and she, her name was Mary, so if that’s you out there…  So what she did, which was the greatest blessing of all time was, she actually had another boyfriend at that time that she had broken up with.  And he came back and wanted to marry her, so I had to break up with her.  And when she told me that, I’d been meditating so long that I actually could see my own body, inside; I saw my, this kind of inner body, reaching for the ‘sadness switch’.  You know and I realized that everything she said to me were just words.  They were just like vibrations and that I was actually causing the emotional reaction.  So I decided, well as an experiment, let’s not turn on that switch.  And that switch has been off, basically the last 20 years.  So generally I notice that every moment is actually filled with a kind of wonder and bliss and joy, and as long as the hormones are balanced and you do basic exercises and you’re not in physical pain, that this feeling of completion, of the beauty of life, is there.  And that’s why this system is called “complete reality”, is because you actually see the complete reality of life through this system.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Wow.  So you’ve managed to maintain that system even now, even though you got out of the celibacy and went on to pursue how to have orgasms, and the and-gasms and the Tantra, following that.

Moses Ma: Actually what was more interesting is my teacher actually, he stopped teaching actively and became a currency trader.  And I said, “Why did you do that?”  And he said, “Oh, I’ve got to finish my karma.  The fastest way to do it is to do business.”  So he said, “Go do business.”  So I became an entrepreneur and I started a video game company, which did two of the world’s best-selling hits, and one of them was a game called Spectre, which was the first game you could play on the Internet, so I basically invented Internet gaming.  And I sold that company, which is a very Taoist experience to make a lot of money and just to try to be centered through that.  Then, and what I noticed is I could just breathe and not be attached to it.  And then I put a lot of that money into another company, which like, we raised like $20 million in 24 hours at this huge conference. And it was in the middle of the dot-com era and it was just absolutely insane right, so I thought I did.  I had a full-page article about myself in Time magazine, predicting I’d be the next hot thing.  And then it all crashed immediately, you know.  And I highly recommend this experience to people because it’s very Buddhist.  It’s like letting go of that money without becoming sad.  So I noticed that it was actually okay, and a lot of other people around me were depressed, but I actually just thought it’s all a lesson in life.  So business is very useful for tuning the strength of your system to withstand the ups and downs of life and just be in a state of joy at every moment.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Well, I don’t know what’s more appealing to a lot of listeners, money or great orgasms or great vitality, so you’re hitting a lot of hot buttons.

Moses Ma: Yeah, you know the system that I studied actually has a complete esoteric Tantric lineage in it and one of my teacher’s teachers, a wonderful Tibetan Chinese yogi, a Buddhist yogi named C.M. Chen, who lived in Berkeley.  So many great teachers have actually taught traditional Tantric approaches.  I was very interested in what I call ‘neo-Tantra, or this new kind of thing that’s been emerging in the West.  Buddhism is actually forming a new kind of American Buddhism that’s an amalgamation of many kinds of Buddhisms.  And their inner esoteric Tantric lineages, of all religions, are actually merging together in this thing I call ‘neo-Tantra’.  So I wanted to document it and just understand it because this new thing is the first new major religion to be forming in hundreds of years.  And that’s why I started studying it.  The first thing I did is I met a bunch of dakinis and I realized that many of them are actually in a state where they wrestle with real sexuality.  So instead of just making it theoretical, like you can’t have any sex and then thinking about sex, they actually are in the world where they can wrestle with the issues of sexuality, you know first-hand, in the trenches, so to speak, so I have great respect for many of the dhakas and dakinis that are creating this body of knowledge as we speak.

Dr. Patti Taylor: And the dhakas and dakinis are the people who are out there teaching men and women how to reclaim their sensual and sexual skills in their marriages and just in their love lives.

Moses Ma: Yeah, I think that there are many different… you know, my definition of enlightenment is that it’s not a noun; it’s a verb.  It’s like the word ‘education’.  So you might ask somebody who doesn’t have a lot of education, “Are you educated?”  And they go, “Yeah, I finished, you know, grade school.”  Whereas if you ask somebody with a PhD if they’re educated, they go, “You know, I’m just beginning.”  Right, so enlightenment is the same thing.  I think that the beginning of sexuality is fixing your marriage, or learning how to be more fulfilled in your sexuality.  I think that beyond that are many other states.  I think that the core of Tantra is actually to find the state of bliss at every moment and to actually be in the state of happiness.  I think that within Tantra hopes...   there are many wonderful things in Tantra.  I’ll tell you one story about Tantric techniques that kind of blew my mind.  But I think that within Tantra lies the key to solving problems with depression, with anxiety, with fulfillment and many things.  So if we can unlock that, I think it unravels many of the other puzzles that people have to deal with.

Dr. Patti Taylor: I really want to hear that story.  And I think right beforehand we’re going to just pause really quickly and take a break to hear from our sponsor.  So this is Dr. Patti Taylor, and we are talking with Moses Ma.  So please stay with us.  We’ll be right back.

[break]

Dr. Patti Taylor: And we’re back, and we’re talking with Moses Ma.  And before the break we were talking about orgasms, and-gasms, your life as a celibate monk, your business career and all kinds of things.  And now we’re finding out what the new enlightenment is like, and a great story.  So what is this?

Moses Ma: By the way, I was never a monk.  You know it takes a lot of training and discipline; I was just a layman.  Sure, I studied various new-Tantric techniques from various teachers, and I found that they were very powerful, though the one that’s the most interesting is the idea that sexual energy can change reality, that bliss and ecstasy can heal things.  So one of the things we did, I did, was… I have many friends and one of them called me and she said, “I want you to do a Tantric healing on me.”  I said, “I’m not a healer; I just study.”  She said, “No.  I absolutely know karmically that you’re supposed to.”  And I said…  You know, when someone says that, you can’t… you just go with it.  So what we did is we did a Tantric healing together, and it was a traditional ‘sacred spot’ work.  But what amazed me was the power of the system.  She had actually gone through many years of therapy and had never uncovered this one memory of herself as a child.  And in this process, because it was the inclusion of that energy directly, she was able to break through that.  So in her case it was… I’m trying to decide whether to tell the story, and I can…

Dr. Patti Taylor: I’m just going to interrupt… the ‘sacred spot’ is the female g-spot.

Moses Ma: Yeah, so what happened here was she had been going to traditional psychotherapy for a long time, and she was having a pattern of failed marriages and came to me and asked me for help.  And you know I don’t take many students.  I actually teach very, very privately because I enjoy my life too much to take too many students on.  But when she came to me she said she wanted a couple of things.  She wanted to be able to leave an abusive husband.  She wanted to be able to find a relationship that really worked for her, where she would be honored.  And she actually wanted to get a better job because she was in this job where they just weren’t making ends meet.  And her dream job was… you know, there was a dream job she wanted.  So when we did this process, it uncovered this memory of when her father tricked her onto his lap, and said you know, “I’ll give you a present.  Close your eyes.”  And they were a very poor family, so he actually pulled out a pair of pliers and pulled a tooth out, after promising her a treat.  So this was so shocking to her that she ended up engramming this knowledge, and then… and she was absolutely in tears, and hadn’t seen this before.  And when it was released, I said, you know, “So how did you feel?”  And she said, “I just realized that all my life I believed that men would promise me good things, and then they would cheat me.”  And I said, “And you’re left toothless and defenseless.”  And she said, “Yeah.”  And I said, “Great.” So we continued the work and we programmed it, and this was only three sessions and an absolute miracle, but after the second session she left her husband that she couldn’t leave because she was emotionally addicted to him, found a decent guy who she’s married to now, and the third one, you’re not going to believe this… she said, “I also found that perfect job I wanted.  You know I had applied for it two years ago and a year ago, and they never called me back.”  And out of the blue, they called her, after doing this work, so she was kind of impressed.  And I thought this was just amazing.  So I wrote it up as a case history, and I started going to other Tantra teachers and saying, “Do you have these kinds of experiences?”  And some of the teachers I’ve met are amazing, like Mare Simone in San Diego.  She actually had a man who was a paraplegic and had no feeling.  And she was, through this work, able to help him have orgasms again, and actually start sending energy into his lower body.  I met another teacher who… she says, “I cannot take claim for this, but a man comes to me dying of cancer, and said, ‘I just wanted to have one last fling,’ and then we realized he was trapped in a life he didn’t want.”  He was married to someone he didn’t want; he was trapped in a job, and it was actually his life telling him to turn it around.  So when he embraced it, he had a complete remission!  She said, “I can’t take credit for it, but there is something happening.”  The energy of transformation starts with sexuality.  And if you ignore it, if you repress it, the transformation is only intellectual.  It can’t actually flow through the entire being and the experience of the being.

Dr. Patti Taylor: So this new enlightenment as a verb is not a religion.  It just cuts across all doctrines, all creeds, and you said it’s a melting pot of all types of awareness.  I really like that.

Moses Ma: Yeah, I think that this, the new neo-Tantra and the new American Buddhism and the new American Zen, the new American neo-Taoism, all of these… and neo-Christianity and neo-Judaism… all of these are actually looking through the filter of ‘what is real?’ and seeing the complete reality of religion, and taking away what doesn’t work, and actually keeping what does work.  So I think that the integration of psychotherapy techniques, which were only invented 100 years ago, into these spiritual techniques, is giving us the equivalent of an atom bomb in terms of human consciousness.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Do you think that there’s in a sense a dropping away of the labels?  I mean that it’s making less and less sense to say that there’s a neo-Taoism, or a neo-Buddhism, or a neo-Tantra, in a sense?  I mean that it’s just all kind of going into the melting pot of using the body and the mind to go to fuse awareness with the body as divine?  I mean do you see some trend in that way, where it doesn’t even matter what your roots are, everybody’s reading everything now?

Moses Ma: I have to tell you that I’m actually in this river and swimming along with the tide and I can’t see where it’s heading.  And I don’t know.  But I do know that people are finding things that actually work.  So what I usually ask… I’m founding a new system called Tantra-TV.com, and it’ll help Tantra teachers and eventually other kinds of instructors and life coaches to be able to find online audiences for their work.  But one of the things I ask everyone to do first is a case history or a set of case histories of what you’ve actually done and the impact it’s had on people, because we need to validate this and verify it and use the scientific approach to clearly see what works and what doesn’t, because there are things that don’t work, that people are still stuck on for ego, ego gratification.  And we have to let those things go and move from an era of spiritual materialism to an era of true spirituality.

Dr. Patti Taylor: I think that’s really great.  So if it’s okay, I’d like to return to the question of this wonderful post I read of yours on male multiple orgasm and the ‘and-gasms’, because what you said was you think that there’s a lot of confusion out there, and a lot of possibly… I saw an opportunity to be had for people to learn how to circulate their energy, and to have more for the men, and we can talk about what you think possibly for women or whatever.  But to circulate the energy, and I just want to be sure we cover this, and a lot of people go into the male multiple orgasm, but don’t really get the benefit from having it, when they could be circulating the energy and just having more of a wonderful experience.  I was just wondering if you could comment on that?

Moses Ma: Sure.  One of my favorite artists is Pablo Picasso, because before he became an abstract cubist he was actually incredibly good at realistic painting.  So he mastered that before he became abstract.  U think that if you study Tantra and Taoism and Buddhism and the esoteric systems, that you actually should have a core where you do traditional Tantric techniques and master that, mainly because I think that sexuality is so addictive that we can fool ourselves into thinking that this is a form of spirituality, when in fact we’re kind of dissipating ourselves.  So if you could do both, if you can actually let go and be in pleasure, and also let go and be completely celibate if you want to be, that’s actually… and be happy there, that’s the key to it.  So the one thing I do know is that if you are unhealthy it’s probably not a good idea to have a lot of sex and ejaculation, according to Taoist theory and to acupuncture.  And there’s actually a formula which I’ll pass on to you: If you take a man’s age, and you divide it by 10 and you square it, that tells you how many days you should wait between ejaculations.  So if you’re 30, you take 3 and you multiply it by itself and that’s 9.  You could wait 9 days.  That’s a long time to wait for most Americans.  And if you’re 40 you’re supposed to wait like a half a month.  When you’re 60 you’re supposed to wait a month between every ejaculations.  In general that’s the rule for if you’re trying to build a greater amount of energy or if you’re trying to heal yourself.  I think that what’s more important is to kind of not be religious about, you know… I think that there’s a lot of organized religion that’s not really good for us.  And wrong sexuality is like an organized religion that says either you don’t have ejaculations or you do.  You know, one or the other.  And what we want to do is just find what the truth is for people and just to be there and not to be so attached to either way.  So my answer is, “I don’t know.”  But I know that what you want is to transcend your thought patterns about it and the myths that you want to live with, and to find what really works for you.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Okay, because I know a lot of men who do practice the male multiple orgasm, who have separated the ejaculation from the orgasm.  And I know a lot of men who just say, “You know I’ve been trying to for years and I find it absolutely impossible,” but who’ve found other ways to spread their orgasms and just kind of use breathing and stuff to carry it along, and are just as happy doing it that way.  And so I’ve never found that there’s any one way that works for everyone, either.  So I think that goes back to the whole melting pot conversation, that everyone really should find their own way to do it.

Moses Ma: yeah, I think it’s important to do that.  And the other thing I think is valuable is to find true teachers in the world.  For example, when I was traveling around in Asia with a Master, he introduced me to his Grandmaster, who… his name is Choy, Grandmaster Choy, and he was a master of Chen bei.  And he was 80 years old and worked as a … he use to be wealthy and famous and he gave everything up and just was a night watchman.  But when I met him, you could feel the energy so powerfully around him that it just hit you, right.  And his favorite trick was that he would pile up a bunch of bricks, and he’d say, “Which one do you want me to break?”  And he’d tap it and break that one by sending his energy out.  So the day I met him for the first time, I took one look at him and I burst into tears and I couldn’t stop for five hours.  You know it’s actually very embarrassing on the busses of Hong Kong to be like weeping uncontrollably.  And so one of my classmates asked my teacher, “Why is Moses crying so much?”  He says, “It’s a past life thing.  He’s meeting his…” So I think that it’s very important to find actual teachers and actual wisdom and to study under those systems.  And then you should let them go.  Like they say, “When you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”  So it’s great to study with them, and it’s great to let them go as well.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Yeah, I don’t think we have that in this culture, the American culture, the whole idea of finding a teacher.  You know, I think that we just kind of go to seminars, and there’s not a real…. I think there’s such a fear of gurus or masters; it’s been kind of really bashed in this country.  And I don’t even know if there are that many masters in this country or whatever.  I mean, I love having my masters.  That’s probably one of the greatest joys in my life, but I don’t meet a lot of people that are really… have found their masters.

Moses Ma: Yeah, I agree.  I’d say that of the various dakinis I’ve met, I know of one who suddenly realized that she needed a master, found one, and it opened her heart chakra completely to be with a teacher, that you can actually have this very intimate relationship with.  So I can tell you that there are actually many teachers all over America.  There are more Buddhist temples in Northern California than anywhere else in the world right now, and they’re all hidden in plain sight.  And when you find them, it’s very valuable, to open the heart chakra through finding the right teacher.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Yeah, but they’re not talking about sex and orgasm as a pathway to the transcendence of consciousness, so, you know…

Moses Ma: Actually, you know…

Dr. Patti Taylor: Do they go to the dakinis for that, the people who, you know, the sex and sex workers, and where do you find a master for the sexual education?  I mean you do Tantric AD, so you’re a good person to ask, right?

Moses Ma: You know, actually there are many really great teachers out there, and all I can say is that when the student’s ready, the teacher will appear.  So they’re out there and you have to look at them. And I… You know, C.M. Chen’s student is still teaching, Dr. Yin, I believe, Lin You Tan.  And he’s teaching in Berkeley and he’s a great teacher.  And Sarah Saraty is a great teacher.  And I think Bodhi Avinasha’s school, the Ipsalu School, those are really wonderful places.  I think if you want to have a great time, I would travel to Europe and go study with Daniel Oday, who’s a traditional shaivist.  And these are wonderful people to study with.  And it doesn’t have to be Tantra.  Any teacher who you actually can bond with takes you to the same place.  So you know I love the teachings of Guru Maya, a [Muchtanandez] disciple.  There’s the City of 10,000 Buddhas in Ukiah; it’s an incredible place.  The teacher there has passed away but all of is disciples still teach.  When they cremated him, his skull is still on display, and it’s completely covered with blue crystals, because when he meditated, the energy crystallized on his skull.  And you can actually look at the skull and there are these enormous crystals all over it, which are called serera, which are signs of Buddha energy.

Dr. Patti Taylor: So one thing I’m hearing you say is really, you know, not to just… just when you’re getting enlightened, it really is going to affect your whole life.  Your sex life, your health, your vitality and everything is going to shift, out of that, and so…

Moses Ma: Yeah, I think that basically, go and look for teachers.  You know, in America it is kind of dangerous.  There are a lot of gurus out there that are, you know… generally, for example, when I take students, I don’t ask for money.  You know, I actually want… I ask them to donate to charity, because I don’t want that karma.  But basically if you find someone who says, “Give me your life savings,” it’s probably not the right school for you to be in.  So I think that Americans need to watch out for cults.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Right.  Well, I agree with you. Well we’re going to take another quick break so…  We are talking with Moses Ma, and notice we didn’t give his website.  He does like people to figure it out to find him.  But please stay with us; we’ll be right back.  This is Dr. Patti Taylor, and we’re going to hear from our sponsor.

[break]

Dr. Patti Taylor: So, we’re back.  And this is Dr. Patti Taylor and we’re talking with Moses Ma.   So are there any wonderful useful things that you picked up along the way, that you are still doing, that you’ve just found are wonderful after all these years?

Moses Ma: Yeah, there are actually several techniques.  The first one is incredibly simple.  It’s called fractionated urination, and it’s a way to practice or train your kegel muscles all the time.  So what you do is when you go to the bathroom, you stop halfway.  You actually completely stop urination even though you’re still not done.  And then you hold it, and then you start again, and then you stop halfway.  You do that several times and it practices the kegel muscles.  That was actually considered a major high secret in Taoist schools for many years.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Does this work for women as well as men?  Men as well as women?  I mean, who’s this for?

Moses Ma: Yeah, this is actually for both men and women.  Kegel muscles work for everybody, but it is true that men and women have different types of practices, and I’m not well adept in women’s techniques in Taoist Tantric practices.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Okay, so men do it and women… well you know we do have kegel muscles, so…

Moses Ma: The urination everybody can do.  The other thing I recommend is just to go find a Chi Gong instructor and learn some Chi Gong, some basic Chi Gong, and to use that as the basis for a lot of the other work that you’ll do.  The other one is… I think that he best one is to actually, to meditate regularly.  So 20 minutes a day of any kind of meditation is actually very good.  If you can find a system that really calls to you, it’d be great.  For example, the system that I actually learned, I had met this Taoist teacher, and I had a dream one night when I was staying at the temple, and that a spirit teacher came and taught me a certain chant and a meditation.  When I woke up, I related it to him, and he went, “That’s pretty amazing.  That’s what I was going to teach you tomorrow.”  So I believe that if you find the right teacher you can actually be taught very interesting systems.  But again I recommend teachers who don’t… aren’t really famous, that basically are ‘hidden in plain sight’, and probably are the waiter at the local Chinese restaurant.

Dr. Patti Taylor: So, I love that you say that, because a lot of people probably are going to have an easier time finding someone who lives in their local town or in their neighborhood than somebody who’s got a really big famous name.  What are some tips for finding that person?  How would you know?  What might it look like, or feel like?  Just some off-the-cuff examples? 

Moses Ma: Wow.  You know, falling in love and finding a sefu or a guru are the two hardest things, and I don’t have any answers for that.  All I can say is that if you play your cards right, and you just have a very clear soul, that it’ll actually happen and you’ll know that it’s right for you then when it does happen.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Right.  Well you know what?  I know that [Amook Dananda] often said that the seeker is the one that really does create the teacher.  So I guess when you decide, when listeners decide,     that they really are ready for that teacher, that the teacher will suddenly pop up.  And they will know it.  And I do agree with you that it will affect not just your mind and everything, but also your sex life and your love life.  They’ll just shift too, entirely.  So I want to just talk to you a little bit about Tantra-TV.  That’s a major project for you now.  What are you hoping to achieve with that?  That’s a pretty major vision for you.

Moses Ma: Yeah, well…

Dr. Patti Taylor: What is it, first of all?  Maybe you might also tell us what that is, too, and then maybe…

Moses Ma: Yeah, I actually think it’s too hard to find the right teacher in many cases.  And honestly, people won’t try that hard.  So in order to help people find… teachers find students and students find teachers, I wanted to basically create the ‘Google for spiritual information’.  So the way to do that is to allow people, not only just to say something on a website, but to actually videotape something so that you can get a sense of who they are, so that it’s like video dating, between teachers and students.  So Tantra-TV is really a way for people to upload video about themselves and what they believe in, and to meet each other through video, and also to look at various teachers and see if someone’s got some learning that they would like to learn from someone.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Uh huh, and is there any… what kind of teachers are going to be on there?  Will there be like all shapes and sizes, or is there a particular kind of teacher that you really have in mind, that’s really perfect for Tantra-TV?

Moses Ma: Well you know, ideally I’d love to just open that up to other kinds of spiritual disciplines, but Tantra gives you a very good first case to work at, because it’s a smaller universe of teachers.  But we’re very non-denominational.  We’ve asked everyone we can find to come in and create content for this site, so that it becomes a one-stop shopping area for people wanting to learn about Tantra and Tantric techniques.

Dr. Patti Taylor: So that’s a pretty amazing vision.  Personally I think that TV has tackled just about every subject I can think of.  I mean, they’ve gotten, what… the gay population, and the polyamorous, and you know… they’re trying to go for every sub-category and every sub-population they can think of.  You know, I’m surprised they don’t have dating for horses at this point.  But, so one thing they really haven’t gotten is the Tantra population.  So I’m really excited that there will actually be a market for this.  How close are we to actually seeing this on TV?  I mean, oh my God, I really go crazy thinking that I could turn on the TV and see some of my favorite tantrikas and heroes on TV.  Gosh, what a world that would be.

Moses Ma: You know, I think that the first deployment will be on Internet television, which is sort of like YouTube-like quality.  And that’ll come out later this year.  But what’s happening on the Internet is that it’s… television in five years will be unlike what we see today.  Basically you’ll be able to see any content on television that’s on the Internet, on your big-screen TV.  So I think that we’re kind of moving ahead of the rest of the market but when it gets there, it’ll be one of the channels you can tune in to, and say, “That’s a specific interest of mine,” and you can actually just dial in and see that 24 hours a day if you like.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Wow!  So we have a lot to be thankful for, that people like you are fusing together spirituality and technology, because it’ll be thanks to you that we’ll be able to meet some of these teachers and hook up with the one who really does appeal to us, heart to heart, and I don’t know… how much better does it get than that, huh?

Moses Ma: Yeah, I, in my work as a technology visionary, I believe that the Internet will go through three major revolutions.  The first is that it will commercialize.  So we’ve already seen that.  Many years ago we were afraid of using the Internet with credit cards and then e-commerce came along.  The next step is actually to politicize the Internet.  And you’re beginning to see that with YouTube and the elections.  So people using the Internet to win elections or to impact people.  The third great wave I think is the spiritualization of the Internet.  And when that happens, that means that people can actually emote at a very deep level with each other through the medium of the Internet.  And at that point I think we’ll see the completion of the information revolution.

Dr. Patti Taylor: So, and how far in advance is this going to be?

Moses Ma: Oh, commercialization already happened with the e-commerce trend.  Politicization is happening now.  I predict that spiritualization of the Internet will happen within five years.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Okay, so ‘tele-dildonics’…how far off are we from that?

Moses Ma: You know, I actually don’t like toys that much myself, but…

Dr. Patti Taylor: How would you define tele-dildonics?

Moses Ma: There actually are a number of startups building products that you can actually plug into the Internet so that you can talk to each other and trigger vibrators.  Actually one of them is like…  the most successful one is an iPod gadget that you can…  but I think that’s just a niche market that’s…  what we’re really looking for is, if you look at what the core of Tantra is… you get attracted by the sexuality but what it’s really about is tools for communication and connection, and to open all of your chakras.  And I think that the communicating over the Internet is the same way.  At first it’s about tools.  It’s about how cute it is.  But eventually it’s really about being able to go deep with someone, over this medium.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Well I don’t know.  I could see the day where I could sort of write like a love letter and do an ‘om', and then maybe have it… you know, my lover’s, you know, in another state, and have that om sort of go through the Internet and download into their iPod, and they have a device that’s sort of a suction cup, and it kind of oms under their nipples and amplifies and sort of gets the off.  I mean isn’t that… how far off can that be?

Moses Ma: Well you know if you watch… You should go see this movie called The O in Ohio, with Parker Posey.  She plays a woman who’s never had an orgasm.  And she becomes addicted to them when she discovers a vibrator.  And so she puts a phone in her panties and has to give a business presentation.  It is the best performance I’ve ever seen Parker Posey do.  And so that means it’s already happening.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Okay, good, good.  So what other trends do you think we ought to be on the lookout for, then, in terms of Tantra and technology and spirituality?  Anything else to look forward to?

Moses Ma: Yeah, in terms of Tantra specifically, I think that what we’re in the middle of right now, over the next few years, is that there is a changing of the guard from the first generation of neo-Tantra instructors to this next generation.  And out of this group will emerge the ‘Deepak Chopras’, and the, you know, who’s that… Toni Robbins… of Tantra.  So I think that what we’re seeing is that process is actually happening right now.  And it’s an exciting one to watch because what you do is you get to watch these teachers blossom before your very eyes.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Do we know who they are yet?  Or is it sort of like a hotly contested sort of race right now between the really young ones and we have no idea?  Or could you be starting to put money on them or is it sort of like still the dominant ones are in force and we don’t really know what the new ones are going to look like yet?

Moses Ma: Well, you’re one!

Dr. Patti Taylor: [laughs] Well, you’re so sweet, and…

Moses Ma: Okay, so one thing I’ve learned when I had my video game company is that all hits are flukes.  You cannot predict which movie, which game, which book or novel will be a hit until you just put it out there.  And what happens is that person who produces compelling content and becomes a star actually grows very, very quickly to adapt to the market.  So I think that there are many candidates out there.  I've seen lots and lots of teachers that have a great amount of potential.  And I’d be happy to name them off, but I know that, like at the Academy Awards, if you miss one name everyone else is angry, so I won’t do that.

Dr. Patti Taylor: I was just going to say the same thing.  Please don’t, because I don’t want to have to cut that out of this interview.  It’s just three more letters I’m going to have to type, and cut this and cut that…  You’re absolutely right.  God forbid you leave anyone out.  And there’s probably too many to name anyway, and as you said, you probably will.  But what would some of the characteristics be?  Will they…  In other words, I remember when rock music was just playing good music, and then it got to be where it was like you had to put on a really great show.  I mean, are there characteristics?  It’s interesting because I think about some of the stuff I’ve heard talk about.  What is it like to have a generation of enlightened people that aren’t from China or aren’t from Tibet, but have a Brooklyn accent?  It’s kind of weird, you know?  So what is it going to be like when you have a generation of enlightened Tantra masters that are from California and are eating raw food and you know…  How’s it going to be different when they don’t come from a lineage? I mean Kashmirian Shaivism, it’s the same thing, I mean, where they haven’t grown up in the Himalayas.

Moses Ma: I will give you a couple of examples.  One thing that I think will be a characteristic of the next big Tantra star is the ability to mainstream the content and information in a way that people can understand it.  That doesn’t mean that they’ve repackaged it, but that they bring it and express it through their heart in a way that connects to other people.  And just to name a few names, I think Mare Simone, Anna Marti, David Fabricius, Sean Group, Amber St. Germain, Ario White, Triambika is incredible, Karen Armstrong, Evelina Rose… the list just goes on and on.  There are these emerging teachers that are now getting their act together and are about to take it on the road.  And I think they’re going to really get a lot done out there.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Well wow, that’s really great information.  Okay, well we’re going to bring this interview to a close pretty soon.  Before we do, I’m going to ask you one final question.  What is the message that you would like to personally leave to the world, if you knew that all our listeners could really just get one thing from you, and absolutely just really, really, really get it?  What would that be?

Moses Ma: Okay, I think the most important thing is that we can’t be one-dimensional about spirituality, that we can’t just say, “I really understand sexuality, and now I’m aligned,” or “I really understand how to meditate, and I’m aligned,” so what I believe is that a complete process of getting to complete reality includes sexuality, emotionality, physicality, intellectuality, all of that put together, so that it’s a complete package, and you can actually get there in a very comprehensive manner that will affect your life positively.

Dr. Patti Taylor: I love it.  I love it.  Thank you; thank you so much for joining us.  Thank you for sharing your wisdom.  Now how do people get in touch with you?

Moses Ma: Yeah, actually, I don’t actually want people to get in touch with me too easily, so I’m not going to tell you.  And what you should do if you decided, “Well I’d like to meet him or I’d like to learn something from this guy, you have to find me and it’s no fair using Google.  So just allow magical coincidences to bring you to me.  I will be at Burning Man somewhere, so you could find me.

Dr. Patti Taylor: Okay, well.  Okay, so, well, thank you once again.  This has been so much fun.  I know I’ve learned a lot, so I’ve really had a great time.  Thank you again.

Moses Ma: Thanks!

Dr. Patti Taylor: Yes, so, okay, join us next week on the Expanded Lovemaking show when we talk to [Barry Kamasura] on the science of orgasm.  Thank you so much for listening.  Please do send my your email at [email protected].  If you haven’t yet, please be sure to subscribe today, to get automatic updates to our show as soon as they get released.  For text and transcripts of this show and other shows on the Personal Life Media Network, please visit our website at www.PersonalLifeMedia.com.  This is your host, Dr. Patti Taylor.  That’s all for now.  I remain yours in ever-expanding lovemaking, and I’ll see you next week.

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