Episode 70: Decker Cunov: Founder of Authentic World on Commitment, Porn and Tantra
In this interview, I delight in having Decker Cunov, founder of Authentic World, return to Just for Women to give us his deep insight into the world of men, as only a pioneer in the current "men's movement" can.
Decker offers us a peek into the psyche of how men think so we as women, can really start to understand the inner world of the masculine. We start with an inquiry into a series of questions aimed at answering questions such as: "What is going with men who...are afraid to commit, have an addiction to pornography" and so on.
Never one to beat around the bush, Decker shares with us that men (more so now than ever) need emotional support, trust, acknowledgment and appreciation in their lives from their women - especially if they are going through some kind of career or financial transition.
He makes clear the power we have as women to be a grounding, supportive force in our lives and in our relationships by offering our truth without judgment. He clues us in on the underpinnings of what is going on with men who have issues such as porn addiction, men racing to commit and men running from commitment.
His message is clear to women, to claim responsibility without blame and do the inner work we need to hold space for whatever comes up in our relationships - and in our lives as well. Tune in today and catch his juicy rift on the benefits of practicing Tantric breathing practices!
This program is brought to you by PersonalLifeMedia.com.
Alissa Kriteman: On the show today, we’re talking about our favorite subject, men. In this recognized month of love and romance, I’m continuing my series of interviews with male relationship experts to talk about how we can understand men better and relate with today’s modern men in a much more empowered way. Today on the show, we’re going to discuss a series of questions and concerns that come up for women regarding men, such as, what’s going on with a man who struggles or flat out refuses to commit. What is going on with men who are addicted to porn and questions like that? Our guest today is Decker Cunov, President and Founder and Authentic World, an organization that offers powerful courses such as the Authentic Man Program and the Authentic Woman Experience. So, Decker, welcome back to Just for Women.
Decker Cunov: Hi everybody, it’s good to be back.
Alissa Kriteman: So Decker, thank you so much for being on Just for Women. It’s always a joy to have you here and what I love about the information that you bring is that it’s so from your direct experience and research with so many men, which is why, I wanted to have you on this show today to dig a little deeper into the world of men and what’s going on there.
Decker Cunov: OK. If you want to, if you dare, it’s good.
Alissa Kriteman: Yes, so I just wanted to cover you know, I’ve been doing the show for a while and it’s really great to sort of, recap what we’ve been hearing for women about, how to be powerful with men and a lot of the things we keep hearing is, OK ladies, you’ve got to know what you want. You’ve got to know what your desires are and be right with them that it’s OK to have them, whatever it is. So, know your desire and then be able to communicate those desires to your man. So, there’s all kinds of communication skills that we can learn to tell our man what we would like to experience in a relationship. But really coming from that place that it’s OK to have desire and wants and all of those things. And so now we’ve got them, we’re going to communicate them. There’s pieces like, from Alison Armstrong where men actually mature in a particular cycle and there are stages of a cycle and things like that. And it really would behoove us to know what those stages are so we can relate better with those men. So these are all amazing things and definitely key pieces and so today, I want to dig a little bit deeper into what are some of the major issues that women have or questions about men that women have that you have been developing a lot of insight into to help women understand how to be more affective.
Decker Cunov: Got it.
Alissa Kriteman: Sounds good?
Decker Cunov: Um-hmm.
Alissa Kriteman: OK. So ---
Decker Cunov: I’m curious about those stages of development and all of that but I’ll talk about ---
Alissa Kriteman: You have to listen to Alison Armstrong ---
Decker Cunov: I’ll listen to that interview ---
Alissa Kriteman: Yes, it’s great, same thing, I mean, she’s a huge researcher. You know because that’s what we’re doing. Yes, really great stuff. And so let me just refresh for the audience who Decker Cunov is. He is the Co-Creator and Course Leader for the Authentic Man Program. He is internationally known for inspiring people toward fulfilling fantastic juicy authentic relationships. He co-founded a counseling centre for homeless youth, has implemented motivation theory techniques for military trainings. I don’t know what that is but it sounds very masculine.
Decker Cunov: Yes, I’m having flashbacks. Keep going, keep going.
Alissa Kriteman: You resided in a Buddhist monastery over the years and I’m personally glad to call you my friend. So, thanks for being here.
Decker Cunov: My pleasure.
Alissa Kriteman: OK. So, on the show today, I want to talk about, you know, the economy is really, you know, itchy right now. There’s a lot going on. We’re excited to have a new President and I’m excited to have a new President and so, there’s a lot of change happening. But there is also a lot of contraction, I’ll say happening and so I want to talk about how that might be affecting men in particular and how we, as women can maybe, hold some insight into that and relate with men in maybe a more sensitive way. I don’t know. I just thought that might be something interesting to talk about.
Decker Cunov: Yes, that is interesting. Well, I think ---
Alissa Kriteman: In our patriarchy, you know.
Decker Cunov: Well, the patriarchs feel that the economy is going to be just fine. I think that topic is hot off the press. Whatever I have to say about it isn’t from deep ongoing research or in the trenches, practiced for the guy who is fresh but what’s been happening, what’s been getting hotter and hotter over the past few years are men really wanting to enjoy what they do for a living. And feel what they’re passionate about, their purpose in life is lined up with what they’re spending 40 plus hours a week doing.
Alissa Kriteman: Yes.
Decker Cunov: And I’ve been noticing that that’s actually more intense than ever before. There is even more reason to be – there’s less bait, less bait for guys to just make that salary because the jobs aren’t out there. That part is very real. A lot of my clients are looking for works or have friends who are trying to hook up with work. The unemployment part is for real and it’s turning out to be a great opportunity for guys to get sober, I mean like, all right, there is no more excuses now for me not to take a look at what are my strengths. And there is, I can’t think of his name, but a guy who is talking about strengths in men’s work, your strength is something that leaves you stronger. So if you do something that leaves you actually having more energy, feeling stronger, then it’s one of your strengths, something you love, something that contributes to people around you and I see that happening a lot. I’m not sure how that is going to affect the women in their lives.
Alissa Kriteman: Let’s say a woman is in a relationship with a man and he’s going through this. You know, how do we support men in this kind of transition, especially if there is marriage and children?
Decker Cunov: That’s a good one.
Alissa Kriteman: Because – here is why. What we’ve heard is that men aren’t necessarily good at expressing their emotions. They will internalize it, they’ll contract, they’ll feel like, you know, go into sort of that primal, I’m the provider; I’ve got to take care of my family and not necessarily share openly what’s going on. So, can you give us some insight into that kind of arena?
Decker Cunov: Totally. Well, two layers that come to mind. One is just base-level trust. If you’re wanting to be – if you’re counting on him and you’re wanting to support him, try not thinking he’s going to make it or thinking this is crazy or anything that communicates I don’t trust you, is not going to serve your own interest much because either he’s going to get defensive and try to – he will get in a mode where he’s trying to argue or prove his point and in the realm of men living a passionate life where they’re making an impact that pays back more than he ever could have planned for. There is no explanation for it when like me bringing intrinsic motivation theory to the army back in the day, it’s not like I had that articulated at the time. Later, I can look at it and I go, yes, I was implementing a different training philosophy that evolve the consciousness of the military but in the moment I had no idea what I was doing. I just felt inspiration and clarity and I followed it, even as everyone around me was like, “What the hell are you doing?” You know, and I think that if he gets in his head and is trying to logically justify what he’s up to, that he is moving in the wrong direction. So you don’t want to try to get him to justify what he’s doing, even if you have really good intentions for it. And, the other option is he’ll just start doubting himself.
Alissa Kriteman: Yes, I can hear that. This is really good. So, just trust if he’s following something that is a strength of his that really juices him up but we don’t see the end result right now because I could see where a lot of, you know, women are even just dynamics in relationship where we don’t quite now where it’s going but we want that security, we want to know this is going to bring in this amount of income, this is going to take care of us, that there’s got to be more space to trust a man when he’s going towards something new and don’t get him to justify what he’s doing.
Decker Cunov: That’s the first part, yes and because it hurts. A woman that we really, deeply care about, not trusting us is, this is really painful. The way some women say it feels for her when he looks at another woman, which rationally he knew, OK, so he is attracted to another woman, I mean, you don’t like one dress, right, you like different varieties of beauty and so he’s going to – so you could rationally get that. But this really for some women, there is this just pang, if she’s not feeling adored or really cared for and it’s almost the same feeling in the body for a man when you’re not trusting him. So, he’s just in more pain and is likely to just withdraw. He’s either going to collapse and try to explain himself or he’s going to withdraw and just try to make it happen on his own. Either way, he’s not getting much support from you.
Alissa Kriteman: Got it. So that’s a big piece that and what that support looks like is what?
Decker Cunov: Enjoying yourself, like if you’re – say you have desires or say you have fears, express them without blaming him for feeling them. So, if you’re wanting something, rather than wanting it to – having your attention on whether you get it, enjoy the wanting of it. Enjoy expressing that you want it. If you’re actually enjoying being with him and enjoying expressing whatever you are, that’s uplifting for a guy. Even if what you’re wanting can scare the hell out of him, he’s actually more energized when you’re happy, when you’re enjoying yourself. If you’re afraid and you’re tender and vulnerable in sharing that but not I’m afraid because you can’t do it, just owning and taking responsibility, I’m afraid, I’m totally with you and this is crazy, that is juicy for a guy. Your emotional vulnerability is fuel, it’s like rocket fuel for a guy.
Alissa Kriteman: OK. So we, again, could take the responsibility of owning our feelings, having desire but not necessarily putting all the pressure on him to fulfill that. So we can still be in that energetic sort of place as a woman. OK so, I can get that.
Decker Cunov: Let me give an example.
Alissa Kriteman: Um-hmm.
Decker Cunov: I continually took on new challenges. I just kept trusting whatever I was inspired to do even though I had no idea of how it was going to turn out and my buddies, sharp guys are like, climbing corporate ladders, and buying houses and raising families and I’m like, goofing off in India, not goofing off but traversing around India and as far as I could tell, I’m never going to make enough to not live paycheck to paycheck but I always trusted it. Even with the Army, even with the homeless youth program you mentioned all of it, and then, the next level, about five-six challenges in was to rent out this centre to start this course for a company and it was just insane. It wasn’t just a challenge. It was like guaranteed failure, as far as rationally the way I looked at it. So, I actually was called and inspired and met the landlord and if you check my credit or income, there’s no way in hell, but he’s just like, click, he is like, I trust you, you’re in. Just the same as all the other phases, the pieces just fell into place when a man is paying attention and feeling deeply and trusting and going for it, things just unfold and unfold and unfold. But this time, my rational mind was just like, no more, I’m not trusting this gut thing anymore. This is nuts. And I actually canceled the checks that I gave, this guy is trusting me, I canceled the checks because you know, Brian sees the place and he is like, no we can’t, this is too early you know, so I couldn’t handle anymore anxiety. So, I am like backing out and it was Candra, my girlfriend at the time, who was more freaked out, who actually was like, wow! I’ve been wanting you to – I’ve been afraid and wanting you to back off, but now that you are, my heart is just wilting. And she wasn’t blaming me. She was just noticing and sharing and feeling, something clicked, I was like, that’s it. I don’t care if I have to lose my ass and start over, that’s’ well worth it, much preferable to me selling out and just playing half ass, living half ass. So, it made a difference. It was actually her expression and her desire that inspired everything I do now.
Alissa Kriteman: Interesting. I have definitely heard that before you know, behind every powerful man, is this powerful woman. You know, like this really supportive woman and so, it’s an interesting point to bring up now as the economy is getting really strange and what that takes for a woman to not go into fear and not blame her man for, maybe, not bringing home as much or as many resources as he has in the past but continually trust him and support him in all the ways that she can to help him redirect his new vision. That’s pretty powerful what you said because that could have gone many different ways.
Decker Cunov: Totally. Now, this is for women who are counting on a guy, in particular. I have – I work with women also and I have clients where the woman is the one making more money than any men in her life and so there is variety here but that’s one extreme. Also, I know a lot of women who are most interested in feeling alive and connected and celebrating whatever is happening more than how much money he brings home. So, I’m not saying that a lot of women are going to be that harsh about it, but I do think a lot of women will get harsh about her getting afraid and her reaching out for his reassurance and the way she reaches out can either provide that – inspire that reassurance from him or actually be a self-fulfilling prophecy because a lot of time, a lot of guys I know were like, a really great dog. In the best sense, in kind of a silly way too but you just throw the Frisbee, it doesn’t even have to matter. Just give us something to do that would delight you and we will nail it just for this joy of delivering, of accomplishing and but if we’re just like, scolded constantly, like, why didn’t you catch that Frisbee or why didn’t you do it faster? Are you sure you’re going to catch it? You want to go like, screw it, I never cared about the Frisbee anyway.
Alissa Kriteman: Yes, exactly. This is such a good point. I haven’t even got into the other questions. This was so – b cause it’s so important and so timely and I just, you know, you read the paper and you’re listening to CNN and all these things and it’s like, I wonder what’s going on in relationship, like, how is this impacting people’s relationships? And so I knew I could talk to you about that.
Decker Cunov: That’s what comes up and the last thing I would to say is that I’m happy about it. I’m not happy about people losing jobs and losing house and all that. But I am glad that a lot of people are sobering up and paying attention to what matters and noticing how frivolous we have gotten about so much shit that has not even really mattered us, that we spend a lot of time on, a lot of conversation on and it doesn’t even really fulfill us that much. So if, you know, maybe Brooke just nails it and we’re fine three months from now, but however it turns out if the fear, the uncertainty wakes us up to settle into what we really care about, what really has us waking up excited in the morning to be together, that’s a win.
Alissa Kriteman: Yes. And it’s the perfect time to actually learn those new behaviors and learn new ways of being with each other in a relationship. So, we’re going to take a short break to support our sponsors. It’s so fun talking to you. And so listeners, I’d love for you to listen to these ads, they’re ads created by my sponsors for my show and they help me bring these amazing experts to you like Decker Cunov, so if you can support them, I’d really appreciate it. This is Alissa Kriteman, I’m with Decker Cunov and we’ll be right back to talk more about “How to understand your man”.
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Alissa Kriteman: We’re back, I’m Alissa Kriteman. Today, we’re talking to Decker Cunov, founder of Authentic World. And Decker’s been telling us about some of the ways that we can really support our men in these tricky economic time, which I think would hold for anytime, but now in particular, which is why I wanted to talk a little about it. And so, getting reassurance in ways that are uplifting to the relationship, owning our feelings, what to do if our man is withdrawing, it’s actually painful for him if he doesn’t feel our trust in him, and to actually trust him if he’s changing his career and changing the direction of maybe where his life was going, but that we actually don’t get defensive and ask him to prove himself, but really just calm down and trust and honor feelings and communicate in ways that are really supportive. I think its important more now than ever.
Decker Cunov: Not necessarily calm down, calm down in the sense of not flipping out like there’s somewhere to get, but you can be fired up, you can be fully expressed, the more expressed the better at times if you’re really feeling it. And on the flipside, you know, guys are taking responsibilities for what they’re creating. So, they’re just following their gut or doing what they love in the world and then it’s how they go about doing it, and are they doing it in a graceful way or are they doing it in a grounded steady way or they’re just reactive and like, I’m sick of this desk job, I’m just going to quit, because if they’re doing it in a frivolous way and they’re creating a frivolous vibe in their life and yours, ladies, so I’m not going say you should just trust no matter what. Trusting isn’t – I think that you’re completely on track all the time. Trust is, I’m going to be honest with you and stay connected with you and open with whatever I’m feeling with you in the way that’s supporting the both of us. So, if you are off course, you’ll wake up more and feel more inspired and get back on track.
Alissa Kriteman: Yes. It’s really like the epidemy of co-creating a relationship that women are really empowered to co-create with the men and are really sensing and have their attention on the state of the relationship, just as much as the men. It’s really inspiring and it’s just such a new kind of, you know, in this world of women being empowered, it’s like, what does that mean, and finding our rightful place and having relationships that actually are thriving and juicy and finding the nuances in that. So, thanks for making that distinction. So now, I want to talk about men who are moving too fast in a relationship and getting to some of the dynamics that might be happening in a relationship and I was watching the Super Bowl yesterday. Did you watch it?
Decker Cunov: No.
Alissa Kriteman: It was a great game. It was a great game, like, I caught the end of it, right? And so, one of the commercials was this man who was telling this woman, you know, hey, they met, you see her handing him her card and she’s like call me, we’ll go out for dinner sometime. A few seconds later, her cell phone rings, it’s him. Want to go out for dinner? Yes. OK, great. Two seconds later, he’s got the entrée standing right behind here. Two seconds later, they’re sitting down. He’s like inviting his parents over and it’s really funny, and why it was so funny to me is because in our culture and society, men do not do that, right? Guys are not moving that fast and it’s like the women who are coming to relationship, like, I want to get married, I want to have kids. So, do men do that? Are there guys out there moving at the speed of light like that and if so, what’s going on with them?
Decker Cunov: There are and it’s fun seeing how much variety there is, like, there is really – when we talk about authenticity, we’re saying there is no cookie-cutter mold for people to try to fit into, this is what a healthy relationship looks like, and I’m glad there’s not – what is flourishing and authentic for any combination of people is going to be different than any other combination and that’s part of the art form rather than, you know, guys want to make it a science. What are the rules here so I can get it down like everything else and, relationship is the one place that defies that. There are guys who are really questioning the whole conventional; we should have a label on this, are we dating? Are we boyfriend-girlfriend? Are we engaged? They’re really questioning all of that, and wanting to just choose what seems right and really encourage and support women and choosing what seems right day-by-day, moment by moment and these other guys who are like, I’m tired of choosing everyday, I just want a commitment where we know what we’re building together and we can just go, and their goal is to meet a woman and have kids.
Alissa Kriteman: Right. So, you’re saying that -- well, what is happening if a man wants to move quickly?
Decker Cunov: There are guys who – they’re taking this idea, especially the western is very distinct from the eastern mentalities or spiritual perspectives. In the western perspective, there’s something to get. There’s what is your vision, what is your design in life and what are your goals and are you making real what you envisioned and all of that and they’re taking that to extremes where they’re not even relating with a woman anymore if they’re not careful. They’re relating to what they’re trying to accomplish.
Alissa Kriteman: Yes. We see that a lot. I think, you know, on both sides, it’s like we have these fantasies of what the relationship is supposed to be like in the white picket fence and the family and then we forget to relate to the individual after that honeymoon stage is over, it’s like, oh, I thought you are just a vehicle to fulfill my dreams.
Decker Cunov: Yes, totally. I remember dating a woman and her saying something about some visualization she had been doing or angel work or something like that that I was fitting into something she’s been journaling about and all that stuff and I was in that state where I don’t know what I’m saying. It just popped -- words are just popping out and you’re hearing what’s coming out after you already said it, and the ones that came out of her mouth when I was connecting with her was, I’m a person. I don’t know why I said that, but for her, it was like, a lightning bolt and she got, she just started tearing up, and it’s like, oh, I’m so sorry. You’re just been delivered to – for my manifestation goals, you know, like, oh, you are a person, like, you have parents and scars on you from, you know, memories and – so yes, I think that’s a key. Also, guys get burned. When men are not as sexually aggressive and sometimes they’re just not as in touch with their sexuality as they want to be. It was gross or you’re a dog or whatever. So, they kind of cut off their sexual drive, they will be really into women. But just not really initiate much sexuality for a while, you know, three or four dates and still, oh we kissed goodnight and that was it. Well, if it’s meant to be, it’ll go, there is no rush. And then she’ll – they’re still dating other people too and then suddenly she is really locked in with some other guy who’s more assertive, more aggressive and they feel burned by that. So then, there’s a little bit of, like, instead of allowing it to unfold however it would, they’re going to try and make it go faster physically, it’s not because they don’t care about you ironically sometimes it’s because they really want to make sure that the relationship goes further.
Alissa Kriteman: Yes, its’ interesting. I was talking to this woman the other day and she was talking about how this guy was going markedly slow in the relationship versus what I was asking about. And really it comes down to like talking to the person about what’s going on for them and so yes, and I said, well, did you ask him this, and did you express to him how you feel about this. And it was like, no and no. And it’s amazing to me, it’s like, that’s what we’re talking about. People think, men and women, that they’re going to somehow get a different result by continuing to do the same behaviors and it’s like, supporting each other and supporting us in actually doing different things that are going to have a different outcome.
Decker Cunov: Yes. And then what I would support all you women in is, just the same thing I support guys in, but on the women side of it is waking up out of all these, the categories and stereotypes and assumptions about guys, and noticing your own wounds or the old burns from your relationships where you would assume, oh, he is just wanting to get laid and disappear. Not that he’s not, I don’t want you to assume that he isn’t going to do that, but don’t assume he is either and start waking up out of all the assumptions and pay attention to what’s really going on with this guy, with you now, and create from there. Because it could be the worst case scenario or it could be actually something really endearing and he is actually really caring about you a lot.
Alissa Kriteman: Right. I want to ask you a question about guys who are addicted to porn, you know, we started to talk about sexuality and maybe a guy is cut off, but, you know, what’s going on with guys who are addicted to porn?
Decker Cunov: That’s a big one too. I was just thinking of someone I was working with, I mean, it’s a big deal for you guys to even mention porn, even when they’re totally confidential in coaching, it’s still like, they just don’t go there. And I’ll ---
Alissa Kriteman: Well, it’s a big shame, right?
Decker Cunov: That’s the thing. When guys talk about shame, it’s like it sounds like some sort of therapeutic touchy-feely, oh, because you’re ashamed. But when guys get what shame is actually what we’re talking about, or it’s an actual visceral phenomenon, if I mention porn, they get it. Are you ashamed of your power? Are you ashamed of your sexuality? It means nothing to most guys, but if I’m like, hey, when your girlfriend walks in while you’re masturbating, what’s your initial -- seizing up, ice in your veins. A lot of guys are like, oh yes, totally. Because it’s rare that a guy actually is just totally relaxed, totally right with himself, looking out, oh, excuse me honey, I’m masturbating. I prefer this be private. Can we meet later? It’s not like a rational. I have boundaries. It seized up like something’s not OK, my sexuality’s not OK.
Alissa Kriteman: Right.
Decker Cunov: A phenomenon that – so it’s handy for them even to understand what I’m talking about with shame that shows up all over their life just really loud with porn, with masturbation and what’s going on is it varies for some – for some men, they want to work with it because they’ve gotten to the point where they don’t enjoy sex that much. In fact, they’ll want to date women and they want women to want them sexually and all that, they’re hooked into all that, but they actually don’t ever really enjoy orgasm unless it’s through porn. So, I think that’s an extreme version I see every once in a while. And usually, there is – there are sensitive guys. A lot of guys are way more sensitive than we realize and can get their feelings hurt really easily. For me, I can immediately walk in a really crowded bar or a party and immediately know the woman I’m most hot for. And, she can say one catty or a mean thing. Not any catty thing, but a particular energy that triggers me, one off-handed thing, not even towards me, towards a different guy or even towards some of her other girlfriends and suddenly, I can see that she’s esthetically prettier or whatever, but I wouldn’t have anything to do with her. I just feel no, where before I was electrified in my body, just aware of her, suddenly I couldn’t even kiss her. I think I’m extreme in this way, but there are a lot of guys who are really sensitive and they can get hurt really easily or if – or they can get overpowered really easily, if you’re really overt about your desires and he’s not his, sexuality quickly become something where he’s not going to have as much fun as he wanted to, or you know, no matter how much fun you have with a particular dynamic, like, oh, I’ll be the servant and pleasure you, you can really get a lot of erotic energy out of that for a while, but if you’re stuck in it, if you’re not choosing if you have no options, no alternatives, it’ll start to get dead.
Alissa Kriteman: Interesting. So guys are really sensitive.
Decker Cunov: Some guys.
Alissa Kriteman: There is a variety of things going on with men who are addicted to porn. I just think of like David Duchovny and its like, you know, it’s like, wow! That was like the first time that really came out into the public eye, like, here is a guy who’s got a real issue and you know, everyone has their stuff to say about it, but -- so it sounds like – and then they ended up breaking up, you know, but I was curious about that because it’s like sexuality, you know, in my mind could be such an amazing thing and we have all these shits around it and these fantasies about what sex is supposed to be like in a relationship. I like what you said about busting up the fantasies and actually start relating to the real person.
Decker Cunov: Yes.
Alissa Kriteman: And so in and around pornography addiction, so it sounds like maybe something psychological, but also what. They’re not communicating, they’re not talking, he might be disinterested in sex.
Decker Cunov: There is pornography showing up in an intense way because there is pain or something in the way blocking the relationship and then there is all kinds of potential positive ways to relate pornography. Make sure I got when I was thinking around the dysfunctional part, pain, you know, hurt feelings and all of that, you know, you can -- a really powerful practice can be, if you’re with a serious partner, especially is to set aside a time where you’re going to masturbate in front of each other, so intense. I was sobbing when I – it’s a long story, but we drew the things out of a box and I drew them and it’s like, oh, she got to pick who is – and she picked me of course and I was sobbing. And a lot of new erotic energy started freeing up on the other side of that. So, it’s a whole world that you can start exploring. On the positive side, yes again, I like the idea of women not assuming that a guy watching porn is a destructive or gross thing. It can be, and most guys I know, when they’re – there’s new porn sites that are – the page is one big scrolling screen of windows with different pornographic scenario, like, freeze frames and ---
Alissa Kriteman: Oh really?
Decker Cunov: Like hundreds. And a guy – most guys can actually scroll through that thing fast and just be like, scanning, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, bing, that one. And they’re basically going too fast to actually even look at what’s happening. And it’s not like they’re looking for a particular position or technique advice or something, there’s energy, there’s a flavor of energy that they’re really longing for. And they’re finding it quickly. Now, you can misfire, you can actually see a scene that look, say you’re really longing for a more primal animalistic kind of energy and you see a scene that looks more raw like that. You can click on it and it actually is kind of more slower, sensitive, or something like that. And he is like that’s not what I thought it was. Or the reverse is if he’s really wanting more innocence, he’s wanted energy of innocence and just letting go in a sexuality with someone, he will see a virginal archetype scene in click on it and then she’s like oh yeah, you know do this to me and that to me and it’s more like dirty talk and he is like that’s not, it looks like it was going to be more innocent that’s not what this is and he’ll click it off again.
Alissa Kriteman: Oh I got it.
Decker Cunov: He’s really -- he’s looking for a particular energy, he sees a hint of it and then even when he plays it, it can be instant like oh that’s not it, oh that is it.
Alissa Kriteman: It sounds like what you’re saying is the upside of any kind of attraction to pornography. The wisdom of it you could say is that the man is seeking something and so instead of freaking out like oh my god, what’s wrong with me like, did it might be personally is it he’s interested in pornography, well OK, maybe, maybe not but it’s pointing to something and maybe there are some things that a couple could bring into their relationship.
Decker Cunov: Um-hmm.
Alissa Kriteman: That, you know with the shame in a way wasn’t getting communicated. So first of all don’t make it shameful like our society and culture have, you know and doctor enacted us to do around our sexuality so start to lift those veils about what sexuality is and removing that shame and once you do that maybe there are some elements that you could actually bring into your sex life where he doesn’t have to go off and do it by himself and like you are saying wow, vulnerable it was for you to expose yourself in that way.
Decker Cunov: Um-hmm.
Alissa Kriteman: And I just think of all the different ways in the closures we have around sexuality and in the physical act of sexuality that it’s just like a wonderland of opportunity to really connect and be vulnerable with each other.
Decker Cunov: Um-hmm. Yeah, and then some people are like really, we masturbate in front of each other all the time, we’re lovers of course. And I think they should appreciate how healthy they are. In porn also there are some couples who watch porn together and create scenario or there’s a porn game where, whatever they do, you watch porn, you never watch before and whatever they do you have to do, you know like there’s all kinds of really healthy fun ways of playing with porn so waking up out of the taboo of it is huge and most guys are probably going to relate, if there – if they are watching porn, they’re probably relating to it as this unhealthy thing that they’re doing anyway.
Alissa Kriteman: Yeah.
Decker Cunov: And even if they said they weren’t going to then they break their agreement with themselves and all that so don’t collude in that with him. Even if he’s relating to in that way, relate to it as something that could be healthy, oh what energy are you longing for, what’s the energy you’re looking for there because I’m telling you guys are not watching porn and they’re – and kind of check out like half-heartedly watching it, they are locked on, it is all that exist, it’s like the most – from someone who’s been in monasteries has knows what devotional practice looks like, it’s the most devotional state of consciousness I see most mainstream guys ever, ever tap into. Now, it may not be the most balanced form of worship they could chose but part of their longing for is the deep amount of what we called [xx] where it’s one mind full focus and they are worshiping that energy and that’s a worship they could bring to you, if there’s a room for that, start to be channeled in more free flowing ways everybody wins.
Alissa Kriteman: Awesome, awesome point. We are going to have to take a break now. So listeners, we are taking a break and again, I’d love for you to listen to these ads, these sponsors are great and they’re kicking down some great deal, so if you can check them out, I’d appreciate it. And also again, I just want to remind you that you can send me an email at Alissa@PersonalLifeMedia.com or leave me a phone message, I got a phone message the other day from a woman who was really appreciating something she had heard on the show and it just totally made my day so, if you want to leave me a message with anything, questions, comments, I am here, I’d love to hear them. And the phone number is 206-350-5333. I’m Alissa Kriteman, I’m talking with Decker Cunov and we’ll be right back to talk more about men, sex and a whole lot more.
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Alissa Kriteman: Welcome back, I’m Alissa Kriteman, we’re talking to Decker Cunov, founder of Authentic World. Before the break we were talking about men who go too fast, men who go too slow in relationship; we were talking about men who might be addicted to pornography. And Decker was bringing up some really great points about how to free up the whole shame around that if that is something that you find in your relationship and that men are actually looking for energy and that maybe that energy is something given the space in freedom to look at, could be something that could be included in a relationship, which I think is a very interesting point to bring up with something that could be potentially devastating to relationships like we were talking about what David Duchovny and you know things of that nature. And I just feel like as things kind of speed up in our society and there’s a lot more stress and tension, people are looking to divert their energies in different ways that maybe these are some of the problems that are coming up and I wanted to address them with you someone who is so steeped in this direct contact and research with man.
Decker Cunov: Yeah, and with such a short conversation were basically helping women out there, everybody out there just getting your wheels turning and this is a big topic but you can assume that coming at anything in relationship as if some thing is wrong is not going to serve anybody including pornography. Doesn’t – again, it doesn’t mean that you’re going to encourage him like OK sure, I’m going to be fine with anything. It can be destructive, it can be the opposite of what you want and participating in shame about it is not going to help anybody. A lot of women are afraid that if he’s watching porn, oh I’m not going to be able to measure up to the women that he is seeing in the videos or there’s a lot of concerns and personally, for most men I know that’s not a very legitimate one, I have never known a guy who could, whatever can have a women on a video screen no matter how decked out she is, compete with an actual women, if, if erotic energy if freed up and when people were first dating usually a lot of erotic energy is freed up but it doesn’t take long. Some people they can go a couple of years but -- and in most people it doesn’t take long to start participating in those some thing is not OK with you or with me things that chock off that turn on that electricity you felt before and that’s a shame.
Alissa Kriteman: So what are some ways if we find ourselves in relationship that, you know where that sexual erotic energy is getting chocked off, what are some ways to reactivate that?
Decker Cunov: Well, in the porn conversation, there is a great example, because it’s so extreme for a lot of people, you’re staying open and assuming nothing, you’re not relating to your assumptions or your fears, you’re relating to your partner. So, it’s like, oh you’re watching porn, oh you didn’t tell me about that, or you’re trying to hide that from me, why did you try to hide that. Not what had you trying to hide that, there’s something wrong with you hiding it. Wow, you’re hiding that, it must be – must be really intense for you and yet you’re still doing it, you must really want to, what is that? It’s a co-exploration, it’s a playful exploration of what, well, I don’t want you spending all your sexual energy on that video screen I want more for us, your desire. What if – what if I watch you while you did, yeah you can explore one extreme and he’s trying to be like, uh, I’ll pass on it. But actually the woman is the one he’s like actually this is – I can’t believe how hot that was, you know so you never know. On the other extreme there is like, what if – what if the energy you’re looking for in porn, we play with each other. Oh you didn’t think I’d be open to that, no I’m totally – let’s see what happens. It’s an exploration, it’s a play, it’s not something is wrong, something needs to be fixed here.
Alissa Kriteman: It’s so funny I thought, you know that would, that question would be like oh, it would just be a question and we would move onto another one but there is so much here, it’s really amazing. These interviews never go where I think they’re going to go and so I really appreciate that we’ve had like two topics but you know it’s so important because there, it’s like an octopus with all these tentacles, you know it’s not just ever one question, I mean, you know there is all these multi-layers and dimensions to one little issue, it’s never that straight thing. And this, what you said sort of comes back around to the fantasy buster, porn is kind of a fantasy too but when the woman is right there in front of him saying hey I am open let’s talk about this, I’m not shamming you, you know sexuality is a natural and healthy thing, but the women has to not personalize that there is something wrong with her either.
Decker Cunov: Totally, she has to actually feel right with her own sexuality and if she’s triggered or downing herself or insecure, she has to own that rather than try to make him different to make her feel better. And this is a same thing I coached guys on and she has to actually want the best for him. What if there is humility here, what if there is something really secret and healthy or nourishing for him even in the raunchiest stuff with her, this is just gross or something you don’t like at all or something seems trivial or a waste of time, you got all your judgments, are you willing to set those aside, just enough to actually also feel oh, what if there is something really good for him here. It’s rare that porn is that great for him that he wouldn’t eventually channel it somewhere else but it could be. It’s irrelevant whether he is or not, what’s most important is not the conclusion you come to but how you come to it and how you’re relating to each other because there’s no – there’s no one in destination that I’ve been able to find it’s just the unfolding.
Alissa Kriteman: I really like that. It’s not the destination, it’s the journey.
Decker Cunov: That’s what they say. That’s what they say and you know if I act like it’s a destination then I’m going to try to get this handle then there’s no fun.
Alissa Kriteman: Yeah, exactly, cool. Well, we’re almost out of time but I want to ask you one final question that I love asking people who are deeply steep into the wisdom of a particular area and with you I want to know what’s the idea or what’s the one concept that if women kept in their mind when relating with man that would really help them out, what would it be to just grounding one idea?
Decker Cunov: Wow, I figured I would have something up by now from everything we talked about. The one that’s coming up is we haven’t talked about this at all but what I’d love for women to know is that some traditions they talked about tantric, sexuality are legit that they’re actually is a phenomenon in sex that blows the doors off everything I’ve ever even thought was possible like I thought, I had four or five breakthroughs it’s like well, now I’m really having great sex, well now I’m really, really having a great sex. And then there is this tantric merging energetic experience that just put sex in a different category permanently and for, for you ladies understand that the key for most men is having their heart open, which sounds so woo to most guys. They’re like what, I care about you, oh and part of, I need to say I love you and they focus on this, the what you do but, but most guys know what it’s like to watch some tear-jerking movie and have a moment to get some and they start to tear up a little bit and they’re like trying not to but, and most guys – most guys who recognize that can also recognize, oh there are something going on in my body while I was tearing up. And then a few guys can actually isolate and be like oh it’s in my chest area and then there’s other things going on but, but it takes a while but guys can get what is to have a heart opening. The feeling that most women are like oh yeah after a good cry, I can just -- energies moves through and I feel different and I act different and most guys don’t know what that feels like and if they did, if they’re really owning their power and their, their darker energy and they’re killer part themselves of, it would they would defend you and, and want to ravish you and they can have their heart open you know what that even means. The whole story about making love and feeling currents of energy racing through one person’s body through tongues and through genitals and, and you can’t see the whole room is like, literally does look like white light, and all you can see in each other’s eyes and then she starts laughing and then the guy will feel [xx] he’s laughing and then she’s feeling that connection and she starts crying and he starts crying, those cycles of energy emerging and that’s real. That’s real and, and you wouldn’t have to be worrying about porn much if that’s the kind of lovemaking you’re having, that’s for sure. And for guys, who worry premature ejaculation all that or when I was having those experiences regularly I wouldn’t have wanted to ejaculate that would have been a down. I was – every cell was just buzzing with pleasure and energy from her body as much as my own and to cum, there’s no pressure like, oh I want to get off, that would have been a let down.
Alissa Kriteman: I really appreciate that connection because there is a lot of talk about tantra in the west and how it actually could probably heal a lot of what’s going on with our confusion as westerners around our sexuality so thanks for bringing up that point. We have got to go. So, tell our listeners how we can learn more about you, Authentic World and some of the other programs you have.
Decker Cunov: Well, I couldn’t resist you in this interview with you but Authentic World probably will not even be up for another month. So, ladies check authenticwomanexperience.com and check out the seminars they’re offering, the workshops, the coaching and contact them if none of the specific offerings grab you, there are other courses available that may not even be on the website but that’s a good way to be in touch, man -- authenticmanprogram.com or ampcourse.com for seminars. You can check us out that way, same thing contact us and vice versa, ladies if you want more insight into what’s going on in the men’s world, I do lead women’s work sometimes and love to do that. So, if you tempt me, I will do women workshops I probably shouldn’t be doing and I love it. There is a discount as well you want to ---
Alissa Kriteman: Yeah, so Decker’s been generous enough to offer a 15 percent off the course of your choice, so, if you go to ampcourse.com, authenticwomanexperience.com or the authenticmanprogram.com. Yeah, get connected and tell them that the codeword is woman and mention the show, mention just for women and you can get 15 percent off these amazing courses that they offer. And if you hear this, I don’t know sometime after February 2008 check out authenticworld.com because you know this is going to be out there, this interview and so maybe whenever you’re hearing it Authentic World will actually be live and online.
Decker Cunov: I’ll see what I can do.
Alissa Kriteman: OK great, thank you so much Decker for being on Just for Women again and really drilling deep into the heart of what’s going on, it’s such a skill that you have and I love talking to you it’s really important I think as we wake up as, you know young conscious men and women and really take on how our relationships going to be thriving and authentic, you have such deep wisdom and insight. And really in practical ways, you know it’s like you are one of the role models that we can have for taking shame out of our sexuality, taking the confusion out of how to relate with one another, so thanks for the work that you’re doing.
Decker Cunov: My pleasure. I’ll be back, I hope.
Alissa Kriteman: You could be on my show any time. All right, so that brings us to the end of the show, thank you so much everyone for listening. For text and transcripts of this show and other shows on the Personal Life Media Network, please visit the website personallifemedia.com and for a copy of my book and more information on my private coaching practice, just go to my website; sacredspa.org. I’m your host Alissa Kriteman, always expanding your choices here on Just for Women: Dating, Relationships and Sex. Join us next week on Just for Women for more juicy news you can use.
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