Personal Life Media

Transcript

Francesca Gentille: Welcome to Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra: Bringing You The Soul of Sex. I’m your host, Francesca Gentille, and with me today is Neil Cannon. Neil is amazing. He’s an AASECT-certified sex therapist, a couples counselor, has a private practice in Denver Colorado, an instructor of marriage and family therapy, with a PhD in human sexuality, a masters in public health and he has his own radio show, which I have been delighted to be on, The Sex And Intimacy radio show. And Neil is someone who is very practical, very personal, really works as a sex therapist, and I am so excited to have him here today to give us some of those practical and down to earth tips on our road to sacred relationship and sexuality. Welcome Neil.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Thank you. It is so nice to be on with you. You’ve touched my life in so many ways, and I’ve been able to see your work and I’ve seen your workshops and conferences, and I think I have a really good sense of who you are and what you’re about, so for me it’s just a delight to be here with you. Thank you.

Francesca Gentille: Aww! I’m just going to breathe that in. And, you know, one of the things I love about you Neil is that you’re very multidimensional. You’re not the kind of person that says, “Oh if you do this, this and this it’s all just going to be better and, you know, I’m going to wave my magic wand as your guide and it’s all going to be good.” You’re someone who understands that there is work involved. And I wanted to ask you about that in terms of, you know, just giving us a little reality check in terms of the kind of work or practice when we’re feeling disconnected or low libido or maybe trauma is coming up that’s affecting our ability to relate to our partner. What can we expect as kind of the timing of the journey from where we are now to, you know, more vibrancy, more joy in our relationship?

Dr. Neil Cannon: It’s a great question, and I think that it’s different for everybody. What happens a lot that I see in my practice is it’s depended upon a few things, and, you know one is there’s no quick fix. Let’s just start with that. There really are no magic wands, no fairy dust that makes our issues go away or makes us more joyous. What does make us more joyous is good work and looking at ourselves, and in couples work truly looking at ourselves before we look at our partner because that is one…

Francesca Gentille: Seeing our partner’s faults, really…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Exactly.

Francesca Gentille: “It’s their fault. If they would only change, my love life and sex life would be so much better.”

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right, right. I call it pointing the bony finger of blame. But I think for couples the realistic – or individuals – the realistic way to look at work and therapy is well what is the issue, because how long it takes to heal is going to depend a lot on – or how long it takes us to reach our goals is going to depend a lot on what the issues is. And a lot of it’s going to have to do with how willing are we actually to make change – in our patterns, our behavior, our beliefs. And I mean to me those are two really big things. A third is how good is your relationship with your therapist professionally, do you trust your therapist, and is your therapist good at what it is you’ve come to see them for.

Francesca Gentille: You know, I really want to slow this down because these are, these feel like some big things to me, which is you talked about, you know, the type of issue…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: and having a goal. How important is it to have a goal other than blaming your partner. “You’re right.” “I’m right. Can I prove that I’m right?”

Dr. Neil Cannon: Yeah, and isn’t that, it’s funny because that is one of the conversations that happens to couples so much is just this need to be right. But in terms of how important is it to have a goal, I think it’s first and foremost for me, that’s how I start with every individual or couple. What is it you want to accomplish in therapy and what does it look like when we’re done? Because then we can always circle back to that; are we on task, are we focused on what you want or did we get derailed here and we’re off in the trees, because that’s really…

Francesca Gentille: And I think that it’s a vision as well. So like the vision, my vision, why I’m here working with you Neil is that my vision is that my beloved and I will have, you know, youthful sexuality, at least a couple times a week and every day we connect with that you that we once had as being a couple. So that would be, could that be a goal or a vision, or does it need to be more specific, like my goal is to learn how to stroke a clitoris or how to not go into a panic attack when my partner touches me? Do you want, is it both, like an overall vision and specific goals?

Dr. Neil Cannon: It could be any of those things, and I think the way you stated the vision is lovely. And I think for some couples it can look like that; I think for other couples it can be very specific, like “We would like to get erectile difficulties out of our relationship.” “We would like to diminish painful intercourse.” “We would like to learn how to communicate better and fight fairly.” So for everybody it’s a little bit different.

Francesca Gentille: And there really is fair fighting?

Dr. Neil Cannon: I try to teach people actually that they never, if they use the techniques that I teach them in therapy they don’t ever actually, they don’t ever actually have to fight again. That they can have disagreements and they can have different views, but they don’t need to fight.

Francesca Gentille: Mm, that sounds so, so delicious and very inclusive, compassionate, honoring, so that it just steps right outside of the blame game, ‘cause my sense is, ‘cause my sense is that if I’m frightened I will go into a fighting mode or if I feel in some way that I’m not being heard or my viewpoint is not valued….

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: I’ll go into a fighting mode. But if there’s an understanding that viewpoints are equally valid even though they’re different and if there’s an understanding that my interests, what I desire will be heard, then why would I need to fight.

Dr. Neil Cannon: That’s exactly right. And that really is the key. If one partner is listening to the other partner, they feel so good – I’ve seen such shifts in people when they’ve actually for the first time, their partner is listening to them and they really hear it and they really get it, those are the magic moments.

Francesca Gentille: So often tears, male or female, tears at that point…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Oh sure, sure.

Francesca Gentille: when someone feels that they’re finally, finally at last being heard, being seen.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Tears of joy.

Francesca Gentille: And so moved, people are so moved, and that right there can be such a healing, a healing moment, a healing bridge…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: in the relationship.

Dr. Neil Cannon: For me as a therapist, those are my goosebump moments.

Francesca Gentille: It’s those “We get goosebumps” moments from you, woo hoo. It’s really, doesn’t it? It’s what makes being a guide for others worthwhile is those moments of seeing the connection arise again, seeing the hearts open again, and the passion, the passion being present again. And you talk about willingness to make changes in three ways; in patters, in behaviors and in belief. And each of those sound really important to me, and I’d like to go into them more deeply after a break and a word from our fabulous sponsors. And we encourage you to support our sponsors because that helps great shows like this keep coming to you. And we’ll be right back with Neil Cannon.

Francesca Gentille: Welcome back to Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra: Bringing You The Soul of Sex with the fabulous Neil Cannon, an AASECT-certified sex therapist with a private practice in Denver with his own radio show, The Sex and Intimacy Show. And we’re talking about what it takes to actually shift and make a change to revive and recover the beauty of the relationship. And we spoke of patterns, behaviors and belief. Could you distinguish, tell us a little bit more about what each of those is and what it might take to change that?

Dr. Neil Cannon: Sure. Beliefs - I’m going to go maybe backwards here – beliefs really start with attitude and intention. What’s our intention in therapy? Is out intention to change our partner or is our intention to change our self or is our intention to just somehow shift things around in our relationship? Most people don’t really know until they get actually into therapy with a good guide, to use your term. And then I think also with beliefs is a positive belief system. There’s no question that people with a positive belief system do better in therapy than people who tend to be negative, to look at the past, to keep bringing up old stuff, versus “Hey, I believe things can change. I’m not locking myself or my partner into a corner or into the past because of something that happened ten years ago”, and I see this a lot. Things that happened ten years ago will come up in therapy and one of the partners won’t even remember it… But the other partner has latched onto it as his or her own reality just as a way….

Francesca Gentille: Is there ever a time where it has a value or it is important for one of the partners to, even if they can’t remember, to say, you know, breathe that in and say “Wow, I hear that that was very painful for you. I’m not sure I remember that, but as I tune into or breathe into or let myself be aware of how it would feel to have that happen, I, you know, I’m sorry. I feel sorrow.”

Dr. Neil Cannon: Definitely. And I think the way you said it is absolutely correct. And a term I like to use – and maybe this is because I’m in the mountains of Colorado… You talked about breathing into it; I talked about leaning into it. It’s just like skiing. When you’re skiing down a mountain, right, the way to ski properly is you’re leaning down the mountain, not back into the mountain for fear of falling. And it’s the same thing; when our partner has these feelings about us or about a thing that’s happened, if we can lean into it instead of away from it, that’s when we feel these great connections.

Francesca Gentille: And it’s a sense of, sometimes it takes a leap of faith or trust that the future will be better…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: and I need to open my heart now to get to a future that’s going to be beautiful. There may be wounds in the past, broken promises, whatever, and yet if I keep focusing my energy on what didn’t work or hasn’t been working, I’m going to get more of that. And…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right.

Francesca Gentille: And it really can be kind of that leap of trust or faith to allow that something new can come into the relationship, so that belief, that willing to change from a belief of something bad happening from the past, continuing to happen in the future, and a leap of faith into a belief of a more beautiful future.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Correct, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we can believe things can get better we can make them better. If we believe things are going to stay stuck, that there’s no hope, that it’s going to continue to be unsatisfying, we’re setting ourselves up for exactly that.

Francesca Gentille: You know, I have to ask you a question.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: I really do. Is – ‘cause I’ve noticed this and I want to know if you have or not - is I have noticed when a couple comes in that there’s some couples that really have had a lot of trauma or broken trust or broken promises or things that have happened, tragedies, and that I might think “Oh, this is going to be tough, you know, for them to let this go and to come into a healthy vibrant partnership”, and then I’ll have couples that I’ll think “Oh, these issues are not so big. This is not so big, this is not so hurt. It should be easy for them to come into a healthy loving vibrant partnership”, and that my assessment based on the amount of tragedy, trauma, suffering that the couple has gone through, it means nothing and – or little or nothing – and it really is that moment of can they shift into a future - a future vision, future goals - and release something about the past. And it’s that shift that’s more important than how weighty the issues are. Is that just me or do you notice that?

Dr. Neil Cannon: No, you’re absolutely correct. And it’s one of those things that I think we as therapist, for me personally I have to check at the door and not assume that there’s anything the same about any of my clients, that every single person that walks in that door is a unique individual with unique experiences and that what might look on the surface to be something like you described, we can’t assume that’s the way it is. My trauma’s my trauma; however big it is, that’s my trauma and it deserves all the love and attention and nurturing that somebody else’s trauma that may on the surface look to be bigger is, just doesn’t work that way.

Francesca Gentille: So whatever it is, it’s equally valuable because it’s that persons experience. And how about if one of the, one person in the couple is a visionary? They see it, they feel, they’re committed to it, they see their future, they’re so hopeful and positive, and the other person is not. Can one person’s energy, that positive attitude you talked about, can that be enough to turn a couple around?

Dr. Neil Cannon: I have a couple like that I’m working with right now. As you painted that picture it really reminded me of this particular couple. And so in this particular case he’s the visionary and she’s more reluctant. And so what I’ve done with them is – and I think it’s very affective – is to help them look at her fears, and to be empathetic with her fears. And it goes back to what we talked about a few minutes ago is, you know what, the second she felt like he really, really heard her and really was empathetic to her fears and concerns, it changed everything. So I think when we’re heard it’s priceless.

Francesca Gentille: So I want to talk more about the patterns and the behaviors, and pardon me for coughing or gargling here in the background every now and then, I’ve got a little bitty cold. I want to talk more about those other pieces after a break and a word from our fabulous sponsors, and we’ll be right back.

Francesca Gentille: Welcome back to Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra with the wonderful Neil Cannon, PhD in human sexuality, Master’s in public health. He’s just the master of the universe when it comes to sexuality and therapy, and I’m delighted to have him here and to find out more about shifting patterns and behaviors. So which one do you want to tackle next?

Dr. Neil Cannon: You know, they go a little bit hand in hand, so we’ll maybe fade in and out of each one a little. You know, I think what we see so frequently is people get locked up into whatever their pattern is and they don’t even know it; it’s an unconsciousness. And when we can help people to just simply get conscious about what their pattern is, that’s the first giant step.

Francesca Gentille: And could you give me a little example of – I know it’s hard – something unconscious? You know, how do you notice it as somebody who’s watching from the outside, because, you know, maybe people can notice it themselves if they’re given a couple clues. So how do you or we notice our patterns?

Dr. Neil Cannon: Well let’s take, let’s take – because one of the things that I see in my office a lot is sexually compulsive behavior and the impact that has on relationships – so lets take that as an example. And here’s an example; I’d like to say I have one client that’s like this, but I mean I have a list of clients where this happens. And the pattern is that - and when it comes to sexually compulsive behavior, as you know Francesca, I’m pretty guarded against genderizing. However, when it comes to sexually compulsive behavior in my office I see more men than I see women. However, I work with it as a couple, so we work on it as a whole system; the relationship, not just the man. And so what I see is, okay, a couple comes in, sex life is low, desire is low, they’re not having the frequency that we want. So then we start looking at patterns. One of the first patterns I look at in this case is, are masturbation patterns. And so what we find often is that in this case the guy is masturbating once a day or whatever it is, and then he can’t understand or hasn’t become conscious enough as to why he’s not having sex with his wife three times a week, which is what she wants. So to me just getting that one out on the table, you know - hang on, we’ve only got so many bullets in our gun – that raises the level of consciousness for people. That would be one example.

Francesca Gentille: Mm hmm. So looking at, looking at what, how is one thing related to another thing.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: For me, when I think of that too I think I am the common denominator in my life, so if I have relationships that don’t work over and over again, or even a partner who cheats on me or even if I’m the partner who cheats or if I seem to always run into men who are selfish or whatever it is…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: is that there’s a certain point where, you know, the first one is bad luck and the second one is a run of bad luck but there’s a certain point where I say, you know, there’s something that I’m not conscious of, that is bringing this into my life or that I’m actually creating it. Like one time I realized I was actually training men to treat me badly, and that had, you know, been in my unconsciousness. So that’s what we’re talking about in terms of patterns is, I hear two levels: one is when the same thing keeps showing up over and over again and we don’t know why by somehow we’re in center of that.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: And then the other thing I hear about patterns is that a case like I’m not having sex with my partner, but I actually am having sex with myself, so maybe I want to take some of that energy and bring it over to my partner, so the ability to link one thing with another. Awesome!

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm. And I even take it just one step farther, which is when we have depths and desire, then not just take some of my energy or most of my energy and put it toward my partner, but I’ll actually have couples commit to 100 percent of my sexual energy towards my partner, at least for now while we’re working through this. So I actually put in place masturbation more moratoriums in some cases.

Francesca Gentille: Mm, mm. And I’m imagining that might be very challenging for some people.

Dr. Neil Cannon: You ought to see the looks I get… when I tell my couples that “Okay, we’re going to put a masturbation moratorium in place.” And at first, you know, I remember one pair or couple, they were so cute. It was a gay couple and they looked at me like “Ha, ha, ha”, and I’d say this straight faced and they’re like “You’re kidding, right?” And I’d say it straight faced and they’d be like “Oh my gosh, this is going to be horrible.” And as a result they ended up being sexual with each other again and they hadn’t been sexual for a long time.

Francesca Gentille: Mm. And that is, that’s brilliant. Simple, but brilliant. And, you know, I want to say to work both ways. I am also with a couple that, she’s not ready to be sexual, she’s working through some other issues. And he has gotten into a very compulsive relationship with his masturbation…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: And what we’re doing is bringing the sacred to it. So actually bringing a sense of breathing and slowing down and self blessing and self loving, which when they’re ready to be sexual with one another is a beautiful practice for him to be able to bring this consciousness, this slowness, this sensitivity…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: to her.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm. A lot of…

Francesca Gentille: And, but I’ve heard that…

Dr. Neil Cannon:  A lot of ways to skin these cats.

Francesca Gentille: So to speak. And for our, you know, pet people out there, skin a potato. So is that the same as behaviors? So we talked about patterns; how is that distinct from behaviors?

Dr. Neil Cannon: I do think patterns and behaviors tend to merge a lot. Let’s see, behaviors. So behaviors could be a couple that likes a particular act or doesn’t like a particular act. One person likes one thing, one person likes another thing, and so how do we close that gap. So to me, I don’t like the term ‘compromise’, because I feel like we’re leaving something on the table. So this is when I try to help couples collaborate, collaborate on a solutions so that we have behaviors that we both can get behind.

Francesca Gentille: Can you give us an example? I love your examples.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Sure. So, couple is, partner one is into fetishes. Maybe he likes lingerie, maybe he likes wearing women’s lingerie, maybe he likes her to wear lingerie. That’s a behavior and it may not be something that she is buying into. And so then that’s where the rubber meets the road and we have these great intimate discussion where we take something like this that can be very conflicting for some couples, and use this as an opportunity to create new levels of intimacy with deeper discussion about why this is important to him, what it means to him, what is it like for him, how does he feel loved, how’s he expressing his love, and then the same thing on the other side, until both partners are hearing each other so well they’re like “Okay, we can figure out a way to collaborate on a solution.”

Francesca Gentille: And that’s true partnership…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: when we’re, I’m on your side. I’m…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Yeah.

Francesca Gentille: We may be different…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right.

Francesca Gentille: but I’m on your side and I want to brainstorm and collaborate with you to get both our needs met.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right. The problem isn’t him or her; the problem is the problem. So let’s put that over here in a third box, and whatever that problem is let’s work together to solve the problem.

Francesca Gentille: Stephen (unintelligible) often says for couples who have experienced abuse to be – or one of them or both have experience emotional, physical or sexual abuse – is to let the abuse be the problem, not your partner.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: And I love that, and it sounds like the same, a very similar thing is to let the, you know, that there is a difference and that’s it’s own thing; that that’s, the difference isn’t your partner against you.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right, right. It’s the problem. The problem is the problem.

Francesca Gentille: Yeah, there’s a difference. There is a difference.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Yeah, no, it’s a big shift, right. The way we frame things and the way we look at things and what’s our perception as we work through things with our partner, it’s a huge shift to know we can get out of “You’re the problem.”

Francesca Gentille: I’m going to breathe that in. That is such a big one. There is a problem, not “You are the problem.”

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right. You know, I don’t know if you see this, but one of the things that happens a lot in my practice is I will have couples where there’s been, lets take infidelity; “Hey, you cheated, you’re the problem. You go in and see Dr. Neil and you get fixed.” Same thing with sexually compulsive behavior; “Hey, you’re the one with the porn problem. You go in and get fixed.” Or with a woman it might be, “Hey, you have, it hurts to have intercourse, you have (unintelligible), whatever it is. You go get fixed.” And I just take the position in these situations that these are all couples things, and we’re going to work on them as a couple…

Francesca Gentille: Mm hmm.

Dr. Neil Cannon: And to me that’s how we help people heal the fastest and the most effectively.

Francesca Gentille: And you and I were talking privately before we were on the air about that concept of challenges and the richness that challenges can provide, and this sounds like the perfect opportunity to bring this back in. would you say something about that…. and in our own lives, you know, we were talking about that, how we’ve noticed. What can challenges be?

Dr. Neil Cannon: Well I think that we grow the most when we’re humbled. I think we grow the most from challenges as opposed to victories. I, you know, personally I learned a lot more from mistakes than I’ve learned from my victories, because that’s just I think the way human nature tends to be. From a therapeutic perspective, I can sit here in my office and see couples come in on week one and have this, you know, this horrible experience to them – and lets just stick with infidelity – and they could not be farther apart, more disconnected, more angry. And as they go through this process between week one and week 14, lets say, it just changes everything because now they’re dealing with the stuff that they haven’t been talking about before, and when they come out on that other end in week 14, they’re more loving, caring, intimate, nurturing, they have new skills they never had before and they’re more in love than they ever were. So to me these big problems represent an opportunity to grow.

Francesca Gentille: Thank you so much for that, for that vision Neil, of what’s possible when we really are willing and gather the courage and the vision to dive into some of these problems that life has given us. And how do people find you, your radio show? How do they get connected to you?

Dr. Neil Cannon: Well I’m pretty easy to find. If you Google “Neil Cannon Sex Therapy,” that’s the easiest way. My website it doctorcannon.com, and doctor’s spelled out, d-o-c-t-o-r, cannon, c-a-n-n-o-n. My phone’s really easy, it’s 303-670-5600. And our radio show, you can just Google it, it’s The Sex and Intimacy Show is the name of the show, and just sexandintimacyshow.com is the website.

Francesca Gentille: I want to thank you so much for joining us today Neil.

Dr. Neil Cannon: It was truly my pleasure Francesca. Thank you for having me.

Francesca Gentille: And I want to thank you, our listening audience, for being on this journey of love and life and intimacy with us. And if you want to learn more about Neil, see his handsome picture, find out more about his background, practices and services, and more about me, see my beautiful picture, background, practiced and services, you can do that at www.personallifemedia.com. That’s www.personallifemedia.com, Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra: Bringing You The Soul of Sex.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Thank you. It is so nice to be on with you. You’ve touched my life in so many ways, and I’ve been able to see your work and I’ve seen your workshops and conferences, and I think I have a really good sense of who you are and what you’re about, so for me it’s just a delight to be here with you. Thank you.

Francesca Gentille: Aww! I’m just going to breathe that in. And, you know, one of the things I love about you Neil is that you’re very multidimensional. You’re not the kind of person that says, “Oh if you do this, this and this it’s all just going to be better and, you know, I’m going to wave my magic wand as your guide and it’s all going to be good.” You’re someone who understands that there is work involved. And I wanted to ask you about that in terms of, you know, just giving us a little reality check in terms of the kind of work or practice when we’re feeling disconnected or low libido or maybe trauma is coming up that’s affecting our ability to relate to our partner. What can we expect as kind of the timing of the journey from where we are now to, you know, more vibrancy, more joy in our relationship?

Dr. Neil Cannon: It’s a great question, and I think that it’s different for everybody. What happens a lot that I see in my practice is it’s depended upon a few things, and, you know one is there’s no quick fix. Let’s just start with that. There really are no magic wands, no fairy dust that makes our issues go away or makes us more joyous. What does make us more joyous is good work and looking at ourselves, and in couples work truly looking at ourselves before we look at our partner because that is one…

Francesca Gentille: Seeing our partner’s faults, really…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Exactly.

Francesca Gentille: “It’s their fault. If they would only change, my love life and sex life would be so much better.”

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right, right. I call it pointing the bony finger of blame. But I think for couples the realistic – or individuals – the realistic way to look at work and therapy is well what is the issue, because how long it takes to heal is going to depend a lot on – or how long it takes us to reach our goals is going to depend a lot on what the issues is. And a lot of it’s going to have to do with how willing are we actually to make change – in our patterns, our behavior, our beliefs. And I mean to me those are two really big things. A third is how good is your relationship with your therapist professionally, do you trust your therapist, and is your therapist good at what it is you’ve come to see them for.

Francesca Gentille: You know, I really want to slow this down because these are, these feel like some big things to me, which is you talked about, you know, the type of issue…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: and having a goal. How important is it to have a goal other than blaming your partner. “You’re right.” “I’m right. Can I prove that I’m right?”

Dr. Neil Cannon: Yeah, and isn’t that, it’s funny because that is one of the conversations that happens to couples so much is just this need to be right. But in terms of how important is it to have a goal, I think it’s first and foremost for me, that’s how I start with every individual or couple. What is it you want to accomplish in therapy and what does it look like when we’re done? Because then we can always circle back to that; are we on task, are we focused on what you want or did we get derailed here and we’re off in the trees, because that’s really…

Francesca Gentille: And I think that it’s a vision as well. So like the vision, my vision, why I’m here working with you Neil is that my vision is that my beloved and I will have, you know, youthful sexuality, at least a couple times a week and every day we connect with that you that we once had as being a couple. So that would be, could that be a goal or a vision, or does it need to be more specific, like my goal is to learn how to stroke a clitoris or how to not go into a panic attack when my partner touches me? Do you want, is it both, like an overall vision and specific goals?

Dr. Neil Cannon: It could be any of those things, and I think the way you stated the vision is lovely. And I think for some couples it can look like that; I think for other couples it can be very specific, like “We would like to get erectile difficulties out of our relationship.” “We would like to diminish painful intercourse.” “We would like to learn how to communicate better and fight fairly.” So for everybody it’s a little bit different.

Francesca Gentille: And there really is fair fighting?

Dr. Neil Cannon: I try to teach people actually that they never, if they use the techniques that I teach them in therapy they don’t ever actually, they don’t ever actually have to fight again. That they can have disagreements and they can have different views, but they don’t need to fight.

Francesca Gentille: Mm, that sounds so, so delicious and very inclusive, compassionate, honoring, so that it just steps right outside of the blame game, ‘cause my sense is, ‘cause my sense is that if I’m frightened I will go into a fighting mode or if I feel in some way that I’m not being heard or my viewpoint is not valued….

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: I’ll go into a fighting mode. But if there’s an understanding that viewpoints are equally valid even though they’re different and if there’s an understanding that my interests, what I desire will be heard, then why would I need to fight.

Dr. Neil Cannon: That’s exactly right. And that really is the key. If one partner is listening to the other partner, they feel so good – I’ve seen such shifts in people when they’ve actually for the first time, their partner is listening to them and they really hear it and they really get it, those are the magic moments.

Francesca Gentille: So often tears, male or female, tears at that point…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Oh sure, sure.

Francesca Gentille: when someone feels that they’re finally, finally at last being heard, being seen.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Tears of joy.

Francesca Gentille: And so moved, people are so moved, and that right there can be such a healing, a healing moment, a healing bridge…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: in the relationship.

Dr. Neil Cannon: For me as a therapist, those are my goosebump moments.

Francesca Gentille: It’s those “We get goosebumps” moments from you, woo hoo. It’s really, doesn’t it? It’s what makes being a guide for others worthwhile is those moments of seeing the connection arise again, seeing the hearts open again, and the passion, the passion being present again. And you talk about willingness to make changes in three ways; in patters, in behaviors and in belief. And each of those sound really important to me, and I’d like to go into them more deeply after a break and a word from our fabulous sponsors. And we encourage you to support our sponsors because that helps great shows like this keep coming to you. And we’ll be right back with Neil Cannon.

Francesca Gentille: Welcome back to Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra: Bringing You The Soul of Sex with the fabulous Neil Cannon, an AASECT-certified sex therapist with a private practice in Denver with his own radio show, The Sex and Intimacy Show. And we’re talking about what it takes to actually shift and make a change to revive and recover the beauty of the relationship. And we spoke of patterns, behaviors and belief. Could you distinguish, tell us a little bit more about what each of those is and what it might take to change that?

Dr. Neil Cannon: Sure. Beliefs - I’m going to go maybe backwards here – beliefs really start with attitude and intention. What’s our intention in therapy? Is out intention to change our partner or is our intention to change our self or is our intention to just somehow shift things around in our relationship? Most people don’t really know until they get actually into therapy with a good guide, to use your term. And then I think also with beliefs is a positive belief system. There’s no question that people with a positive belief system do better in therapy than people who tend to be negative, to look at the past, to keep bringing up old stuff, versus “Hey, I believe things can change. I’m not locking myself or my partner into a corner or into the past because of something that happened ten years ago”, and I see this a lot. Things that happened ten years ago will come up in therapy and one of the partners won’t even remember it… But the other partner has latched onto it as his or her own reality just as a way….

Francesca Gentille: Is there ever a time where it has a value or it is important for one of the partners to, even if they can’t remember, to say, you know, breathe that in and say “Wow, I hear that that was very painful for you. I’m not sure I remember that, but as I tune into or breathe into or let myself be aware of how it would feel to have that happen, I, you know, I’m sorry. I feel sorrow.”

Dr. Neil Cannon: Definitely. And I think the way you said it is absolutely correct. And a term I like to use – and maybe this is because I’m in the mountains of Colorado… You talked about breathing into it; I talked about leaning into it. It’s just like skiing. When you’re skiing down a mountain, right, the way to ski properly is you’re leaning down the mountain, not back into the mountain for fear of falling. And it’s the same thing; when our partner has these feelings about us or about a thing that’s happened, if we can lean into it instead of away from it, that’s when we feel these great connections.

Francesca Gentille: And it’s a sense of, sometimes it takes a leap of faith or trust that the future will be better…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: and I need to open my heart now to get to a future that’s going to be beautiful. There may be wounds in the past, broken promises, whatever, and yet if I keep focusing my energy on what didn’t work or hasn’t been working, I’m going to get more of that. And…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right.

Francesca Gentille: And it really can be kind of that leap of trust or faith to allow that something new can come into the relationship, so that belief, that willing to change from a belief of something bad happening from the past, continuing to happen in the future, and a leap of faith into a belief of a more beautiful future.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Correct, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we can believe things can get better we can make them better. If we believe things are going to stay stuck, that there’s no hope, that it’s going to continue to be unsatisfying, we’re setting ourselves up for exactly that.

Francesca Gentille: You know, I have to ask you a question.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: I really do. Is – ‘cause I’ve noticed this and I want to know if you have or not - is I have noticed when a couple comes in that there’s some couples that really have had a lot of trauma or broken trust or broken promises or things that have happened, tragedies, and that I might think “Oh, this is going to be tough, you know, for them to let this go and to come into a healthy vibrant partnership”, and then I’ll have couples that I’ll think “Oh, these issues are not so big. This is not so big, this is not so hurt. It should be easy for them to come into a healthy loving vibrant partnership”, and that my assessment based on the amount of tragedy, trauma, suffering that the couple has gone through, it means nothing and – or little or nothing – and it really is that moment of can they shift into a future - a future vision, future goals - and release something about the past. And it’s that shift that’s more important than how weighty the issues are. Is that just me or do you notice that?

Dr. Neil Cannon: No, you’re absolutely correct. And it’s one of those things that I think we as therapist, for me personally I have to check at the door and not assume that there’s anything the same about any of my clients, that every single person that walks in that door is a unique individual with unique experiences and that what might look on the surface to be something like you described, we can’t assume that’s the way it is. My trauma’s my trauma; however big it is, that’s my trauma and it deserves all the love and attention and nurturing that somebody else’s trauma that may on the surface look to be bigger is, just doesn’t work that way.

Francesca Gentille: So whatever it is, it’s equally valuable because it’s that persons experience. And how about if one of the, one person in the couple is a visionary? They see it, they feel, they’re committed to it, they see their future, they’re so hopeful and positive, and the other person is not. Can one person’s energy, that positive attitude you talked about, can that be enough to turn a couple around?

Dr. Neil Cannon: I have a couple like that I’m working with right now. As you painted that picture it really reminded me of this particular couple. And so in this particular case he’s the visionary and she’s more reluctant. And so what I’ve done with them is – and I think it’s very affective – is to help them look at her fears, and to be empathetic with her fears. And it goes back to what we talked about a few minutes ago is, you know what, the second she felt like he really, really heard her and really was empathetic to her fears and concerns, it changed everything. So I think when we’re heard it’s priceless.

Francesca Gentille: So I want to talk more about the patterns and the behaviors, and pardon me for coughing or gargling here in the background every now and then, I’ve got a little bitty cold. I want to talk more about those other pieces after a break and a word from our fabulous sponsors, and we’ll be right back.

Francesca Gentille: Welcome back to Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra with the wonderful Neil Cannon, PhD in human sexuality, Master’s in public health. He’s just the master of the universe when it comes to sexuality and therapy, and I’m delighted to have him here and to find out more about shifting patterns and behaviors. So which one do you want to tackle next?

Dr. Neil Cannon: You know, they go a little bit hand in hand, so we’ll maybe fade in and out of each one a little. You know, I think what we see so frequently is people get locked up into whatever their pattern is and they don’t even know it; it’s an unconsciousness. And when we can help people to just simply get conscious about what their pattern is, that’s the first giant step.

Francesca Gentille: And could you give me a little example of – I know it’s hard – something unconscious? You know, how do you notice it as somebody who’s watching from the outside, because, you know, maybe people can notice it themselves if they’re given a couple clues. So how do you or we notice our patterns?

Dr. Neil Cannon: Well let’s take, let’s take – because one of the things that I see in my office a lot is sexually compulsive behavior and the impact that has on relationships – so lets take that as an example. And here’s an example; I’d like to say I have one client that’s like this, but I mean I have a list of clients where this happens. And the pattern is that - and when it comes to sexually compulsive behavior, as you know Francesca, I’m pretty guarded against genderizing. However, when it comes to sexually compulsive behavior in my office I see more men than I see women. However, I work with it as a couple, so we work on it as a whole system; the relationship, not just the man. And so what I see is, okay, a couple comes in, sex life is low, desire is low, they’re not having the frequency that we want. So then we start looking at patterns. One of the first patterns I look at in this case is, are masturbation patterns. And so what we find often is that in this case the guy is masturbating once a day or whatever it is, and then he can’t understand or hasn’t become conscious enough as to why he’s not having sex with his wife three times a week, which is what she wants. So to me just getting that one out on the table, you know - hang on, we’ve only got so many bullets in our gun – that raises the level of consciousness for people. That would be one example.

Francesca Gentille: Mm hmm. So looking at, looking at what, how is one thing related to another thing.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: For me, when I think of that too I think I am the common denominator in my life, so if I have relationships that don’t work over and over again, or even a partner who cheats on me or even if I’m the partner who cheats or if I seem to always run into men who are selfish or whatever it is…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: is that there’s a certain point where, you know, the first one is bad luck and the second one is a run of bad luck but there’s a certain point where I say, you know, there’s something that I’m not conscious of, that is bringing this into my life or that I’m actually creating it. Like one time I realized I was actually training men to treat me badly, and that had, you know, been in my unconsciousness. So that’s what we’re talking about in terms of patterns is, I hear two levels: one is when the same thing keeps showing up over and over again and we don’t know why by somehow we’re in center of that.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: And then the other thing I hear about patterns is that a case like I’m not having sex with my partner, but I actually am having sex with myself, so maybe I want to take some of that energy and bring it over to my partner, so the ability to link one thing with another. Awesome!

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm. And I even take it just one step farther, which is when we have depths and desire, then not just take some of my energy or most of my energy and put it toward my partner, but I’ll actually have couples commit to 100 percent of my sexual energy towards my partner, at least for now while we’re working through this. So I actually put in place masturbation more moratoriums in some cases.

Francesca Gentille: Mm, mm. And I’m imagining that might be very challenging for some people.

Dr. Neil Cannon: You ought to see the looks I get… when I tell my couples that “Okay, we’re going to put a masturbation moratorium in place.” And at first, you know, I remember one pair or couple, they were so cute. It was a gay couple and they looked at me like “Ha, ha, ha”, and I’d say this straight faced and they’re like “You’re kidding, right?” And I’d say it straight faced and they’d be like “Oh my gosh, this is going to be horrible.” And as a result they ended up being sexual with each other again and they hadn’t been sexual for a long time.

Francesca Gentille: Mm. And that is, that’s brilliant. Simple, but brilliant. And, you know, I want to say to work both ways. I am also with a couple that, she’s not ready to be sexual, she’s working through some other issues. And he has gotten into a very compulsive relationship with his masturbation…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: And what we’re doing is bringing the sacred to it. So actually bringing a sense of breathing and slowing down and self blessing and self loving, which when they’re ready to be sexual with one another is a beautiful practice for him to be able to bring this consciousness, this slowness, this sensitivity…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: to her.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm. A lot of…

Francesca Gentille: And, but I’ve heard that…

Dr. Neil Cannon:  A lot of ways to skin these cats.

Francesca Gentille: So to speak. And for our, you know, pet people out there, skin a potato. So is that the same as behaviors? So we talked about patterns; how is that distinct from behaviors?

Dr. Neil Cannon: I do think patterns and behaviors tend to merge a lot. Let’s see, behaviors. So behaviors could be a couple that likes a particular act or doesn’t like a particular act. One person likes one thing, one person likes another thing, and so how do we close that gap. So to me, I don’t like the term ‘compromise’, because I feel like we’re leaving something on the table. So this is when I try to help couples collaborate, collaborate on a solutions so that we have behaviors that we both can get behind.

Francesca Gentille: Can you give us an example? I love your examples.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Sure. So, couple is, partner one is into fetishes. Maybe he likes lingerie, maybe he likes wearing women’s lingerie, maybe he likes her to wear lingerie. That’s a behavior and it may not be something that she is buying into. And so then that’s where the rubber meets the road and we have these great intimate discussion where we take something like this that can be very conflicting for some couples, and use this as an opportunity to create new levels of intimacy with deeper discussion about why this is important to him, what it means to him, what is it like for him, how does he feel loved, how’s he expressing his love, and then the same thing on the other side, until both partners are hearing each other so well they’re like “Okay, we can figure out a way to collaborate on a solution.”

Francesca Gentille: And that’s true partnership…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: when we’re, I’m on your side. I’m…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Yeah.

Francesca Gentille: We may be different…

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right.

Francesca Gentille: but I’m on your side and I want to brainstorm and collaborate with you to get both our needs met.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right. The problem isn’t him or her; the problem is the problem. So let’s put that over here in a third box, and whatever that problem is let’s work together to solve the problem.

Francesca Gentille: Stephen (unintelligible) often says for couples who have experienced abuse to be – or one of them or both have experience emotional, physical or sexual abuse – is to let the abuse be the problem, not your partner.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Mm hmm.

Francesca Gentille: And I love that, and it sounds like the same, a very similar thing is to let the, you know, that there is a difference and that’s it’s own thing; that that’s, the difference isn’t your partner against you.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right, right. It’s the problem. The problem is the problem.

Francesca Gentille: Yeah, there’s a difference. There is a difference.

Dr. Neil Cannon: Yeah, no, it’s a big shift, right. The way we frame things and the way we look at things and what’s our perception as we work through things with our partner, it’s a huge shift to know we can get out of “You’re the problem.”

Francesca Gentille: I’m going to breathe that in. That is such a big one. There is a problem, not “You are the problem.”

Dr. Neil Cannon: Right. You know, I don’t know if you see this, but one of the things that happens a lot in my practice is I will have couples where there’s been, lets take infidelity; “Hey, you cheated, you’re the problem. You go in and see Dr. Neil and you get fixed.” Same thing with sexually compulsive behavior; “Hey, you’re the one with the porn problem. You go in and get fixed.” Or with a woman it might be, “Hey, you have, it hurts to have intercourse, you have (unintelligible), whatever it is. You go get fixed.” And I just take the position in these situations that these are all couples things, and we’re going to work on them as a couple…

Francesca Gentille: Mm hmm.

Dr. Neil Cannon: And to me that’s how we help people heal the fastest and the most effectively.

Francesca Gentille: And you and I were talking privately before we were on the air about that concept of challenges and the richness that challenges can provide, and this sounds like the perfect opportunity to bring this back in. would you say something about that…. and in our own lives, you know, we were talking about that, how we’ve noticed. What can challenges be?

Dr. Neil Cannon: Well I think that we grow the most when we’re humbled. I think we grow the most from challenges as opposed to victories. I, you know, personally I learned a lot more from mistakes than I’ve learned from my victories, because that’s just I think the way human nature tends to be. From a therapeutic perspective, I can sit here in my office and see couples come in on week one and have this, you know, this horrible experience to them – and lets just stick with infidelity – and they could not be farther apart, more disconnected, more angry. And as they go through this process between week one and week 14, lets say, it just changes everything because now they’re dealing with the stuff that they haven’t been talking about before, and when they come out on that other end in week 14, they’re more loving, caring, intimate, nurturing, they have new skills they never had before and they’re more in love than they ever were. So to me these big problems represent an opportunity to grow.

Francesca Gentille: Thank you so much for that, for that vision Neil, of what’s possible when we really are willing and gather the courage and the vision to dive into some of these problems that life has given us. And how do people find you, your radio show? How do they get connected to you?

Dr. Neil Cannon: Well I’m pretty easy to find. If you Google “Neil Cannon Sex Therapy,” that’s the easiest way. My website it doctorcannon.com, and doctor’s spelled out, d-o-c-t-o-r, cannon, c-a-n-n-o-n. My phone’s really easy, it’s 303-670-5600. And our radio show, you can just Google it, it’s The Sex and Intimacy Show is the name of the show, and just sexandintimacyshow.com is the website.

Francesca Gentille: I want to thank you so much for joining us today Neil.

Dr. Neil Cannon: It was truly my pleasure Francesca. Thank you for having me.

Francesca Gentille: And I want to thank you, our listening audience, for being on this journey of love and life and intimacy with us. And if you want to learn more about Neil, see his handsome picture, find out more about his background, practices and services, and more about me, see my beautiful picture, background, practiced and services, you can do that at www.personallifemedia.com. That’s www.personallifemedia.com, Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra: Bringing You The Soul of Sex.