Episode 47 - Dr. Patti Taylor: Expanded Orgasms!

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CHIP AUGUST

Welcome to sex, love and intimacy. I 'm your host Chip August, and today we 're going to be talking about sex and sexuality. We 're going to be talking about expanding orgasm - expanded orgasm. We 're talking with doctor Patti Taylor, Patricia Taylor. She 's a PhD, and one of the leading teachers of expanded orgasm.   She 's studied with many sources, she 's worked with Moore University, the Human Awareness Institute, she studied hypnosis and tantra, she 's a California certified sexuological body worker, and her most extensive experience has come from working directly with others, and from her own ongoing intensive practice, having had three to five extended, extatic, expanded orgasms per week over the last fifteen years. She 's written several books, including the 1997 relationship masterpiece "The Enchantment of Opposites: How to create great relationships", and the best-selling 2002 classic "Expanded Orgasm: Soar to extacy at your lover 's every touch." She 's also created a best-selling educational DVD called "Expand her orgasm tonight", which is an explicit how-to guide for bringing a woman into a state of full body, full being-over-the-edge orgasm. She 's got a PhD in transpersonal pshychology, and wrote a dissertation called "Expanded orgasm as a pathway to the transcendance of consciousness". She 's also the host of the expanded lovemaking show on the Personal Life media network, where you can hear her interview the leading authorities and stars today in the field of expanded lovemaking. She serves on the board of Sexy Spirits, a leading New York City teaching institute of the sensual and erotic arts, and maintains a private practice in person and by phone in California.

DR. PATTI TAYLOR

To become a master, you have to learn ... I would say the physical is 25%, the emotional is 25%, the mental is 25%, and the spiritual is 25%. So you have to learn in all four domains. I would say that you don 't learn this overnight. It really is a lifelong path to learn how to be a master giver and reciever of expanded orgasms.
When you start out, maybe it 's for two minutes. That 's still a lot longer than five seconds. But you can start having them for five minutes, and I know a lot of people who have them for half an hour or even longer. There are a lot of people who have had them for hours.
The goal of the sandbox is not lovemaking, because when lovemaking is involved, there 's so much on the line. It 's like the whole relationship is on the line, and I think that shuts down communication. When you have a sandbox, he or she who communicates the most wins. It really shifts the whole focus, and often leads into very juicy lovemaking. So I recommend that people have sandboxes as a way to have their own continuing education program.

CHIP AUGUST
Welcome to the show, doctor Patti.

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Hi, it 's great to be here, Chip.

CHIP AUGUST
So, first it would be interesting to know how somebody becomes an expert in expanded orgasm. Did you just sort of grow up always knowing you wanted to know more about orgasm, or what?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Oh, far from it.  In fact, the first time I ever masturbated, I was 32 years old or 36 years old, so I was anything but ... I think, like many people, I thought I knew everything there was to know about sex, until ... actually I took a Human Awareness course, and I found out I knew very little. But actually, no. I think I had an extended orgasm at the age of 36, and it was so different from anything I ever had. Within the space of twenty minutes, I was breathing fire out my hands, my feet, the top of my head, my nose, my eyes ... My whole being was changed, and I thought 'I 'm going to dedicate my life to this, I can 't believe this is free, and legal, and on tap. And that 's what I did.'

CHIP AUGUST
I love it. So, having had one you decided you wanted to have a lot more, and not only that, but thought everybody should have a lot more. Is that kind of how it worked?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Well, I wanted to learn how to do it for myself first, and that wasn 't as easy as I thought, because upon doing some research, I found there weren 't that many people actually teaching it, and the people that were teaching it were basically at Moore University. But it 's very hard to get to the top level to find out how. And even then, they weren 't very specific in what they were doing. They weren 't very verbal. It 's like, they would give you the experience, but they wouldn 't tell you how, so I was very frustrated. And not only that, it was like a very elusive goal, because it seems like my partner and I would have one, or get one, or come close - not nearly as close as the one I had that started me out, but we 'd get a taste, and then it would slip away from me. So we 'd go and try to chase it, we tried tantra, and we tried this, and we tried that ... It always seemed like I 'd get closer and closer to figuring out how to do this, but for a long time, I never seemed to really have it in a way that was reliable for me.

CHIP AUGUST
I 've had that experience, and I think many of the people listening have had that experience, where you have this kind of extraordinary life-changing moment, and then when you go try to chase that moment, to figure out the mechanics, or just to know how to repeat it, it feels like sometimes the chasing keeps it out of reach, and it 's hard to know how to persue. I know Moore University has taught for what, 30 or 40 years now, sexual technique, and expanded orgasm technique, and so on ... I think it 's part of the stuff they teach, right? But in any event: how do you pursue this? How do you even know where to go? How do you find it?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Well, I think the problem is, even at their most amazing level ... First of all, they 're amazing people, but if you go there as a student, in twenty-eight sessions they 're going to teach you the bread and butter stroke, and that 's it. Because, really, to become a master, you have to learn ... I would say the physical is 25%, the emotional is 25%, the mental is 25%, and the spiritual is 25%. So you have to learn in all four domains. And I would say that you don 't learn this overnight. It really is a lifelong path to learn how to be a master giver and reciever of expanded orgasms. So it 's something that you approach with the sencirety of someone who wanted to be an olympic skier, or a Zen master. First of all, when you begin to connect with somebody - let 's just start with that - you do it with great consciousness, and it just is an effort of the mind, because I think the mind really controls a lot of our functioning. And a lot of people aren 't very conscious when they touch somebody. For that initial touch, what is their frame of mind? Are they tense? Did thy bring their job with them, or their trip from the freeway here? Or did they learn, did they train themselves, to leave it at the door? Did they give their partner acknowledgements? Did they get themselves into a feeling state, so that when they touch their partner, they can feel their partner feeling them, so that they were in a hologram where ... ? Because when you get into that state of mind, you can begin to know what your partner is going to crave and respond to. You 're going to actually be able to literally read your partner 's mind on the first touch. And that all happens because you 've started in the right place. So that 's just getting your mind in the right place, we 're not even talking about technique yet, you know, and that 's just because you 've left your emotions at the door.

CHIP AUGUST
One of the things I 'm hearing, though, is that it really helps to have a very willing partner. I mean, I imagine this must be more difficult to do alone.

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Yeah, I would say so. I have a DVD out, and I did it with a master, and I think anyone can watch a DVD and get a concept of what 's possible. I think you can study books on your own, but yeah, I would say it 's always better ... I think there are things you can do on your own. I think everyone can do self-loving on their own, and learn their own body, and I think that 's an amazing gift that you can give your patner. I think most people do not self-charge themselves erotically, so that when they present themselves to their partner, are they alive, are they awake, are they turned on, are they charged? If you 're waiting for your partner to do it all, which I think a lot of people are, then ... you know, are you in the Olympic game, or are you just having hum-drum, so-so sex? You know, it 's how you want to play the game. If you really want to have ... if you 're with someone who 's a total master, you don 't have to be so great, you could be like me, you could just be lucky, and, you know ... it 's like being with a master dancer. They 'll make you look great. But if you 're in a relationship with someone, yeah, it 's really great if you both really want to study this and learn this.

CHIP AUGUST
Now, you said something about coming into the experience self-charged and erotically awake. I want you to say more about that, because I think a lot of us have this idea that the sexuality doesn 't begin until the two of us are actually in bed together, and so the idea of coming into the experience already erotically charged seems odd for a lot of people. What are ways that people can self-charge erotically?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
I think when you 're in a relationship, there 's always an erotic charge that doesn 't end or begin when a date begins or ends. I think it 's almost a measure of how the relationship is going, that 's going to be expressed in the bedroom. Speaking for myself, I give or recieve love letters, do kind, thoughtfull things, and they show up long before the date begins, and then closer to the date, there 's petting and cooing and there 's preparation for the date. Even if we have a date three to five times a week, there are those gestures that really reassure a woman. I think there 's a phrase I really like: that women want sex to get to love, men want love to get to sex. I hope I don 't get a lot of people writing me a letter like, you know, how could you typify people like that? But you might think of it like that; they 're just maybe different people who have different strategies for getting their needs met, and to be erotically charged, a lot of people need to have a lot of attention beforehand. It doesn 't have to be right when the date begins.

CHIP AUGUST
I want to take a moment to say something about generalizations: all generalizations fall apart in the specific, you know. I think it 's true that there are a number of people who use sex to get love, and a number of people who use love to get sex, and that there are maybe some big generalizations you can draw about men and women, but I notice there are women who fit the male mold, and men who fit the female mold, and that 's kind of what 's so much fun.

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
But what I meant to say is not that women use love to get sex, but that they really need to feel loved before they really open up sexually. And I think that men, once they have felt themselves being sexually wanted by the woman, they really open up their loving heart 's center. More like that.

CHIP AUGUST
Just personally, I know that I 'm a sexual man who enjoys sex, and for me personally, without a really deep emotional connection, I don 't really have great orgasms. The body does what the body does, but for me to have something really extraordinary, requires not just a physical wiggle wiggle pop and it 's exciting. There needs to be quite a bit more connection happening on a lot of different levels. Do you find that that 's basically true about the techniques that you 're teaching? That we need more than just, well ... any stranger will do and just touch me like this and you can have this experience?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Well, like I said in the beginning, it 's 25% technique, 25% emotional, 25% ... Now those are really generalizations again, but I like to talk about the mastery. If you want to be a master lover, then you 're going to understand all of those four domains. And probably, they aren 't even seperate. Our minds are making those separations and distinctions, just because that 's what minds do. The real master understands energy. And the real master will have a way, when they 're around you, of you feeling seen, you feeling wanted, you feeling understood, and it 's because ... first of all, the master himself or herself is already erotically charged, and she or he will look inside of you and bring that out in you, and make you feel hot and juicy and desirable and loveable and all of that.

CHIP AUGUST
So we 've been talking about how you got into it and how you got involved, and then sort of the basics. I think I want a defenition: what exactly do you mean when you say expanded orgasm? What are you talking about?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Well, if an orgasm is good, an expanded one is better. So imagine your regular orgasm, you kind of go oh, oh my God, oh that feels so good, oh ... And then you go over this edge and ... wow. And then you come back down. Well, in an expanded orgasm, you climb, and it feels better, and better, and better, and oh my God, oh, and then ... you stay there. And it goes oh my God, and it 's like, wow, it starts expanding. And then you can stay in this place where you 're contracting, and instead of having .8 tenths of a second contractions that are six or eight - that 's Johnson 's definition of a "regular orgasm" - you just keep having these contractions that go on and on and on and on ... And when you start out, maybe it 's for two minutes. That 's still a lot longer than five seconds. But you can start having them for five minutes, and I know a lot of people who have them for half an hour or even longer. There are a lot of people who have had them for hours.

CHIP AUGUST
So, we 're talking here about actually having the experience of something that feels like a climax, but instead of a peak it 's a plateau, and you just kind of stay at that climactic experience for fifteen, thirty, twenty, fourty minutes? That 's what we 're saying?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Well, yeah, you either stay at that plateau, or you might actually go to one plateau, and then you might dip a little bit but then you climb again, and then you go to a second and even higher-level orgasm. And then you stay there for a while, and then you 'll climb, and then you 'll have a third orgasm ... So that 's a multiple standard orgasm, and I think that 's what people tend to enjoy when they 're going on for quite a while.

CHIP AUGUST
And I would imagine that the reason most people don 't have any clue about this is that they sort of hit that first orgasm, and that 's all there is so they 're done, and they have to actually learn how to teach their bodies to not limit themselves and to not limit their mind, yeah?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Well yeah, you hve to learn how to spread your energy. A lot of women will go 'oh, it 's too sensitive now, don 't touch me there anymore.' Or for a man, they 'll think 'well, I just ejaculated, so that 's it.' So for a woman, she wants to learn how to begin to spread the energy by breathing up and imagining the energy is spreading through their body. That 's if it is too sensitive. A lot of women don 't feel enough, that 's apparently more often the case with women, and probably the reason is that a lot of men and women don 't communicate very well, and a lot of men aren 't touching a woman in such a way as to produce an orgasm. And why is that? Well, I detailed that in my book "Expanded Orgasm", but there are dozens of variables that go into a really good expanded orgasm. The angle of your finger, whether you 're at the tip of your finger or the pad of your finger, the pressure you apply, the speed, the location, ... Clearly, watching your woman get off herself would be an amazing way to learn these things, but sometimes even the most subtle shifts in what a man is doing would really help. And again, the energy that he is bringing in - and this is where I coach people, because often you can 't see what you 're blind to - the energy that you 're starting out with, and that you 're communicating to your partner, can have a profound impact. If she said "Could you shut that window?" and you say "Why, it 's not that cold in here." you might have shut down her trust without realizing it, and that could be the reason she 's not feeling very much. So there are hundreds of reasons. I remember one woman started getting off significantly better, when her husband learned to turn off the TV. Which makes total sense, but didn 't to them. For years. He was an audiophile. They spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on audiophile equipment, you know, so for him to turn off the TV wasn 't a natural thing. He loved his TV. He probably spent 50 000 dollars on all the sound equipment. But to her, it was a distraction. So feeling more is the name of the game for a woman, and then to spread that energy. And the man should know to keep going. For a man, it 's important to learn that you can separate ejaculation from orgasm. And then again, to spread that energy. Through the mind, through feeling, there are many many ways to do that. And it helps also to have a knowledgeable partner. And that 's where the techniques do come in handy.

CHIP AUGUST
So it seems to me like a prerequisite to this is a willingness and ability to communicate. And I just notice in so much lovemaking among couples, we say less and less and less, we go like 'I know my partner likes to touch me here and she likes this and that and that', and we don 't really talk. And I get that part of what you 're saying is: we need to actually be aware of what 's happening in our bodies, be aware of what we 're sensing and feeling, and be willing and able to talk about it.

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Yeah, that 's true. I think the problem here ... you know, we went to driver 's ed and got our driver 's license. But the thing is, knowing how to drive doesn 't really change that much. A car is a car, and it 's very different with the human body. I mean, I am the age I am, but obviously I 'm a whole lot different than I was five years ago, even one year ago. Certainly different than I was ten years ago. I change day to day from hormones, from this, from that, ... And the thing is, it 's very natural on the one hand for the human mind to want to make a map. Especially guys love maps. They can figure things out, and so when they think they found something that worked with their partner, they 're going to memorize that. Bad idea. Wrong direction, okay? They need to follow the energy. That 's why women don 't want to tell them what to do: they 're terrified the man is going to make a map. But they need to tell them what to do, because yeah, you need that communications. But you need to have the right kind of communication. If it 's just 'move a little to the left, and move a little to the right', that 's not very helpful. You need to have profound communication, and ongoing communication, and updated communication. Like, 'you know honey, I used to like it softer', or 'Yesterday I wanted it softer, but today I really want jackhammers'. And that 's OK. And the guy, you know, says 'ouch, my ego hurts, but I 'm letting that go, because you 're more important to me.' There needs to be profound communication.

CHIP AUGUST
I don 't mean to insult anybody, but in my head I have this sort of mental picture of me as a man, being very dog-like. So, what I notice about my dog is that she remembers where every cat in the neigbourhood is, and always wants to take the walk there. And, you know, I get that that 's what dogs do, you know, they 're very habitual. They want the same routine over and over and over again. And I sort of have that. I figured that my wife screamed pleasantly when I did this, once, so now I 'm going to keep going back to that spot. And I 'm also dog-like in the sense that, if my wife just says 'don 't do that', I 'm going to cower. But when my partner says "You know honey, I really love that you remembered to do that, but what I 'd really like is ..." and then coaches me to do something new ... It 's sort of like when I reward my dog for doing the right thing. You know, you can 't teach old dogs new tricks, but you have to keep rewarding them for doing the right thing, and kind of steer them away from behavior that doesn 't work. And we humans, we don 't get that as easily as we do when we 're training our animals.

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Well, I think you 're really hitting on some key points, because the ongoing-ness has to be there. The brain needs novelty. And that novelty is going to help turn us on. If I served you baked Alaska 365 days a year, it could cost me 500 dollars a serving, but you 're still going to get tired of it. So even though I said "Oh honey, I love what you just did" last week, I may not like that today. So I need to say "Oh honey, I loved it last week, and now I really want this." We have to understand that  we 're up against our minds. We could go into this like Olympic skiers or Zen masters, and get that we have to overcome these tremendous habits of wanting to stick to the known. And really push ourselves into asking "How is this for you now? What is this for you right now? What does this feel like?" Even though you asked it yesterday, that is the best thing you can possibly do. And your partner might tell you "Why are you asking me", or she might feel scared, or she might think 'What is this?' It 's very different behavior. But I think that many of your listeners would be just stunned to find out, on a week to week basis or day to day basis, the enormity of change, if they asked every day for a week "How is this for you now?" The range of response, and the map ... what it really looks like.

CHIP AUGUST
I also want to say I think there 's a bias that says that women communicate about this better than men, and that 's not actually my experience. My experience is that couples actually learn a language together, and they both need to learn that langauge, and neither of them is actually more adept at it than the other. Talking about our body, talking about orgasm, talking about what it feels like on my clitoris, or what it feels like on my penis ... We don 't have a lot of training for that stuff, and a lot of us are a little embarassed, and we don 't really have a language until we practice.

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Yeah, and I have to disagree with you. I think men have a better language for what things feel like. Women have been shamed about their genital parts, and not only that, they can 't see down there, and it 's a very small area, and I know when I was doing my practice in my training for the clitoris, I had to learn the distinction just going around the clitoris between what was twelve o'clock, three o'clock, nine o'clock, ... I could tell what were circles on my clit, versus up and down strokes, but I couldn 't always tell if someone was on my right side or my left, I couldn 't always tell what they were doing, and I had to literally learn to play doctor and have sessions which we called sandbox sessions, where I described where they were, just so I could tell them to move to the right or the left. I had no idea what they were doing, and that came as quite a shock to me. I didn 't even know my own anatomy. I think a man has a lot more to look at to begin with, so I don 't think women know.

CHIP AUGUST
I 'm curious, what are some specific things, exercises people could do, that might bring them more in contact with the kind of orgasms that you 've been talking about?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
One thing I like to teach my clients is to set up a sandbox. A sandbox is a bracketed period of time, could be fifteen minutes, could be half an hour, where the partners agree that they 're going to play doctor during that time. And they have a subject matter to focus on. So it could be the G-spot for the woman, it could be doing the man, giving him pleasure, it could be his prostate, it could be getting her to be more talkative ... It could be anything. It could be that she 's just going to recieve. They can make a hundred different sandboxes, but they 're going to do the sandbox. And the goal of the sandbox is not lovemaking, because when lovemaking is involved, there 's so much on the line. It 's like the whole relationship is on the line, and I think that shuts down communication. When you have a sandbox, he or she who communicates the most wins. It really shifts the whole focus, and often leads into very juicy lovemaking. So I recommend that people have sandboxes as a way to have their own continuing education program.

CHIP AUGUST
Weekly, daily, monthly, how often?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
I do talk about this is in my book, "Expanded Orgasm". It 's such a turn-on, I would say as often as you can, but you know, if you have a Saturday morning ... you can plan them in advance, and look forward to them, and say "Gee, honey, I 've been looking forward to finding out if there was a better way to pleasure you" or "I 've always wanted to see you masturbate, is that something you 'd ever consider doing, and could we set up a sandbox for that? Or, you know, when might be a good  time?" You 're going to have a discussion about this beforehand, and then just decide by yourselves how often you would want to do it. I think it might vary for each couple.

CHIP AUGUST
Sometimes I encourage couples to make lists privately, like 'here are some things I wish I knew or understood better about your body, or about our lovemaking.' And then bring those lists together, and it would be great to bring those lists into a sandbox. You know, if I 've always wanted to know 'do you really like it when I do this?', well great, let 's set up and try whether you like when I do  this, and what you 'd like different. So it 's a great idea.

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
I think that is a great idea. I know, even with me, this partner I used to have used to kiss me in a way that I didn 't like, and we didn 't kiss for a really long time. And then we finally talked about it. He had this way of just holding me and staring at me which made me very uncomfortable. And when we talked about it I told him I really like to be stroked, and I just got very restless when I was being held. It made me, I don 't know, claustrophobic or something. And after he knew that if he would just stroke my hair or my body at the same time he would kiss me, it was like, I don 't know, I was a passionate kisser, and, it 's like, you know, why go through life not kissing when you could have that one conversation. So it 's a great thing to do, have a conversation about all those things.

CHIP AUGUST
Yeah, I get it. So you 'd have a kissing sandbox, and maybe you 'd have a petting sandbox, and maybe add a how to touch my genitals sandbox, and be each other 's teachers. Great.

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Yeah, there is hundreds of sandboxes you could have. How to do the windshield wiper stroke better, which is the stroke where you go inside the vaginal area not all the way up to the pelvic bone where the G-spot is, it 's right before that. I guess it 's right in where the pelvic bone is. You sweep your fingers from one side of the pelvic opening to the other. And there are others where you just kind of swerve aside. The vaginal lips are very sensitive to touch, and then, as you go in, they get sensitive to pressure. You can set up a whole sandbox around the question 'at what point do they transition from being sensitive to touch to being sensitive to pressure?' That would be a short one, maybe, but it would be a very fun one.

CHIP AUGUST
OK, I think people need your book, they need your DVD, because clearly you 've got a million ideas that most people will never think of otherwise. So, I 'm curious, if they want to get in touch with you, if they want to get your book, if  they want to get your DVD, how do they reach you?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Well, let 's see. They can always go to my website, expandedlovemaking.com, and I think that has my information on it.

CHIP AUGUST
... which you can find at personallifemedia.com, if you go that route, and on the personallifemedia.com website, you 'll find links and connections to all of our shows and all of doctor Patti Taylor 's stuff. I also want to say that if you want a transcript of this show, if you notice there were things we said that you 'd like to see in writing, or maybe you 'd like to cut and paste and send to people, then there 's transcripts for all of the shows, also at personallifemedia.com. If you want to give me feedback or suggestions for the show, if you have ideas for the show, you can reach me there also, just send an e-mail to [email protected]. I do read all the e-mail, and I 'm definitely always looking for new show ideas, and always reading feedback and trying to make the show better. So please feel free to get in touch with me. If e-mail doesn 't work for you, you can actually call. We have a voice messaging system. You can call me at 206 350 53 33. When you leave the message, please mention it 's for my show, 'Sex, love and intimacy'. Also leave your own name, a callback number or an e-mail address where we can reach you, and whatever your comment is. And do remember that comments that you leave, if they 're really favorable, we may want to use them for promotional materials. So your leaving a message implies your permission for us to use that message, if we ever want to, for any kind of promotional materials.

We 're coming to the end of the show here. I always like to ask my guest: is there one specific thing that you would tell people to do? Is there one exercise, or one  technique, or one meditation that people could do that might help their love, intimacy and sexuality?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Yes, I think that gratitude is the absolute greatest path of all. I think it 's the master path, and I think before every day, whether you 've centered yourself to your total perfection and happiness and satisfaction or not, that the two of you could sit there, and trade acknowledgement, like 'I 'm really so grateful that you did this, and I 'm really enjoying how beautiful you are, and I 'm really happy that we 're here together'. Just go back and forth for five minutes. No negatives. Positives and gratitude will just make your day absolutely sweet and beautiful. Whatever was missing, this will make sure that the day will start out on the absolute best not possible. And hey, you 'd have gratitude all the time too.

CHIP AUGUST
I want to add something to that I just thought of here: sometimes clients come to me and they say 'yeah, but I keep appreciating the same thing', and I 'd have to say it 's absolutely great to be creative, but there is nothing wrong with telling your partner again and again and again how beautiful they are, how sexy you think they are, or how much they make your life heaven. I know you think she already knows that or he already knows that, or you told them already. But there 's something really powerful about telling them again and again and again. So yes, be creative, try to include as much as you can be grateful for, but don 't worry if you find yourself repeating some of those things. Some of us need to hear them a lot.
Doctor Taylor, it 's been great talking to you. Do you have any last thoughts you want to close this interview on?

DR. PATTI TAYLOR
Just find a moment of 'wow' today, and share it with your partner. And beyond that, thank you for having me here, it 's been a total blast. 

CHIP AUGUST
Thanks so much, you 've been a great guest. I want to thank you for being here, and I suspect we 're going to do this again, because there 's so much more to talk about on this subject. I suspect we can do another show in a while.
This brings us to the end of our show, I want to thank our listeners for listening in, and I hope you 'll join us again.