Episode 24: Francesca Gentille: Sexual Shamanism and Relationship

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Meet Francesca Gentille, host of "Tantra & Kama Sutra" on the Personal Life Media Network, teacher of Tantra and Sacred Sexuality, and self-described "Diva of the Devine". Listen in as Francesca and Chip talk about incorporating ritual and role-play into lovemaking. Francesca is an exciting and effervescent personality who talks openly about her own journey out of "addictive" love behaviors into a healthy, joyous sexuality. With insights drawn from Assanas, Breathing Techniques, Chakras, Kama Sutra, Mudras, Pujas, Quodoshka, and Tantra, Francesca's honest and candid conversation will give you some great ideas to try for yourself. And remember to listen for Francesca's exercise that you can try at home to help awaken your inner sexual shaman.

Transcript

Francesca Gentille: Sexual Shamanism and Relationship

Announcer: This program is intended for mature audiences only.

[Music]

Chip August: Welcome to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I am your host Chip August and on today’s show we are going to be talking to Francesca Gentille. Francesca is an award-winning poet, Francesca is a communications expert, she is involved with psychology, addiction recovery, depression recovery, she is a private coach and she is a sexual shaman, which we are going to talk a little bit about and she has got years of training and experience in health eduction, human sexuality, antiaging, also an expert in clarifying life purpose and integrative healing from dysfunctional families, compassionate communication, and holistic relationships and a whole bunch more. She is a really fascinating person and she is also one of my fellow hosts on Personal Life Media network which I hope she is also going to talk about.

Francesca Gentille: Well, people who have shamanic tendencies or trained in shamanism really get trained in being able to develop the muscle of their intuition, the muscle of sensing energy, the muscle of sensing emotions, of being able to understand the language of dreams and symbols. Now, what might happen if we brought that into the bedroom?

You know, I want to say that my best credentials really are that I am a recovering sex and love addict and I am a recovering food addict. And oddly enough there are a lot of similarities between sex and love addiction and food addiction. Both of them are addictions that you can’t just go cold turkey. You can’t say “Oh I am being compulsive about food, I just won’t eat; oh I am being compulsive about falling in love or sexuality, I just think I won’t be related to anyone.” Both of those things will be extremely unhealthy, so what we are looking for is balance.

Chip August: Welcome to our show Francesca.

Francesca Gentille: Thank you chip, I am happy to be here.

Chip August: I am really happy to have you. We are going to be talking today about sexual shamanism, we are going to be talking about ritual in relationship, I hope we are going to talk a little bit about addictions and unconscious addictions and conscious addictions and what is love addiction and what is sex addiction and can you ever heal from that stuff and how do you go from all of that to passionate relationships. So, got a lot to talk about and I am really happy I have got such a great person to talk to about it. So, I want to just jump right in.

Sexual shamanism, those words, I think I know what a shaman is, but I really don’t exactly know what sexual shamanism is, could you talk a little bit about that and how you became one and what that is.

Francesca Gentille: I would love to talk about sexual shamanism. A shaman is someone who really has a sense of more than one level of reality. There is the level of the reality of the coffee table here. If it knocked it, it is wood. There is the level of realty of the blouse you were talking about, but there is also the level of reality of my emotions, there is a level of reality of sort of an energy sense. When we are walking down a street and we turn around and we knew that someone was looking at us, we just felt it or we can feel that someone is angry or they are sad even if there is nothing that they are saying about that. We just know. Some of us are very energy sensitive.

Well, people who have shamanic tendencies or trained in shamanism really get trained in being able to develop the muscle of their intuition, the muscle of sensing energy, the muscle of sensing emotions, of being able to understand the language of dreams and symbols.

Now, what might happen if we brought that into the bedroom? That is when we have sexual shamanism. In many cases in life, we think of sex as tab A in slot B. It is the in and out. Then there is the ejaculation or the orgasm hopefully for both people and it is over. Now some people add sensation. They add the paddles, the flogging, the screeches, the bites, the things that bring more, the lotions and potions, the things that bring more sensation and that is a wonderful exploration in its own right. But a shaman is going to want to bring in if I am blindfolded, can I sense where you are in the room. If I put my hand on you, can I touch you beneath the skin. Can I start to really feel where your energy might be blocked, can I help it flow, and can I even bring healing to you in the bedroom.

Chip August: I can see how this relates to some of the things that I have learned about tantra, but also some of the things that Virginia Satir talks about, about the different personas that live inside us. I really get it. I think people listening really sort of have that experience that there are different aspects of a personality that live inside us. How does one train to become a sexual shaman? I mean what is your background that makes you a sexual shaman?

Francesca Gentille: I really do think that this is something that people can experiment with at home in a gentle, in a kind way and in an experimental way. We want to be researchers and experimenters and so I want to say to my beloved, this afternoon hopefully when we are not too tired, let us go in the bedroom and let us just try this and it could fail, but scientists love failure, because every time it doesn’t work then we get closer to how it might work.

And we want to bring that into the bedroom, so this is something you could try at home, this is something you could read about, you can read a book about shamanism, about totem animals. In a sense psychology is the shamanism of today, you can read Virginia Satir’s book and then you can say how would that look if we brought that into our bedroom or you could take a workshop. Like you said tantra has part of this, some of the Daoist sexual healing has part of this. The pieces of it are out there if you look for them and then try it on.

Chip August: It seems to me this would take a pretty fair amount of trust and communication. What I noticed for a lot of couples is that the longer we are together actually, the less well we communicate about our sexuality and our more inner desires and our most inner dreams. So, it would seem like this would require a pretty fair amount of openness, conversation, communication, yeah?

Francesca Gentille: It does and I want to invite the people that are listening out there to really think about in all of life that if things aren’t growing, they are collapsing, they are dying. And we get into those stuck places, we get busy in life and if you are my beloved, I take you for granted, oh it is just Chip again, hi Chip, yeah I got to change the laundry whatever. But that is why we want to have these sessions, literally sessions where if you are my beloved, I would say, “Chip, you know, this afternoon let’s put the kids in a baby-sitter and let’s take a couple of hours, we don’t have to worry about anything because if I am not risking revealing myself to you, if I am not developing that courage with you, our relationship is going to start to die, we are going to take each other for granted,” and I have a very personal experience that I can share about this if you’d like.

Chip August: I would love that please.

Francesca Gentille: So, I have had a lot of crash and burn relationships enough, that at a certain I couldn’t really avoid. The first time it crashes and burns, you say it is bad luck. The second time you say it is more bad luck. The third time you say it is run of bad luck. But there is sometime around the fifth or sixth relationship that crashes and burns after, in my case, a couple of years that I had to look at that, I was the common denominator in my relationships. And I really started to do some work on discovering these inner aspects, what part of me were afraid of relationships or wounded from the past. Or would come out and sabotage the relationship in some way. Well, finally I had gotten some skill with this and I met my beloved who we are now engaged.

And there was a point when we were making love, literally in intercourse, where suddenly I started to feel detached. Now, I am guessing people have this, where here you are in intercourse with your beloved and suddenly you are thinking, did I lock the car, maybe I should take the clothes out of the dryer. And you no longer feel anything in your genitals. And I have done enough work to understand in my own life, to understand that this meant that there was some part of me that was checking out, numbing out in the bedroom.

What I did is I literally stopped. Now, this is a little advanced, but I am going to give it to you because people will work it out in their own pace, is I literally stopped and I stopped him and I said, honey just a second. Just give me a moment here, I closed my eyes, I checked inside and I saw almost like this picture of this little person with her arms crossed and kind of tapping her foot very angrily at me. And I opened my eyes and I said, I think there is this youngling part of myself that is very angry about our sex life.

And he said really [laughs]. What does that mean? And I said I don’t know, let me check and I closed my eyes, I went inside and I got sort of these pictures because once again the youngling self is like dreams, it is more like a picture communication than words. I got a picture of a bed picnic, like little fruits, little cheeses, little meats on the bed and kind of sitting and feeding each other. And I said, you know, I think she wants a bed picnic and I explained it to him and he said okay.

So the next time we got together in our couple of hour sessions, I put on a flannel nightgown, no makeup, I came on the bed and he had set it all out with little cheeses and fruits and things like that and I let myself bring forward this tender child that I had never brought forward, I never felt safe enough with anyone ever. And when I brought her forward, there was a pause and then she said not even looking at him really, do you like me. And he said something brilliant. He said, I don’t know. I have never met you. And that part of me said, would you like to know me. And he said, yes. And then I pointed to some food and let him feed me. I leaned my head on his shoulder and this was once again the very young part of me, very tender, very raw and then within a few minutes, that part of me was actually done. And I said, okay, I am done, I need to come back to my adult self, that’s enough. And he said, well was that okay. And I said that was great.

Several weeks go by, our sex life is fine and then I start noticing that I am feeling irritated and detached while we were having intercourse. Old days I would have thought that was him, he is not making love to me right. He is the problem, but with his inner work, with this development of my own awareness, I realized it was something in me, I closed my eyes and once again I find this youngling self. And I listened to her and I opened my eyes and I said, you know, I think the youngling wants to speak to you again and he is now used to this [laughs] and he said okay.

And when I opened my eyes, I said, I was the youngling and I said, do you have a little boy. And he closed his eyes and he said let me check and he opened them and he said, yes I do. And then I said can he come out and play. And he closed his eyes and when he opened his eyes again, it was the youngling self, it was the innocent playful. Chip, we made love on a level that I have never made love before. So innocent, so playful, so sweet and we were pretending to be kids, “Oh I am going to be a young girl now ah,” you know it was literally that raw sweet rolling around, giggling, laughing, and the fact that we could share that, I have never shared that with anyone. The fact that we could share that brought such a depth and such an intimacy, and that’s the kind of thing I am talking about in sexual shamanism, when we have the courage to really bring forward the selves that bring a richness to our relationship, a preciousness that will never be replaced by anyone else.

Chip August: That is so great, I teach this all the time in workshops that we think our sexuality lives in the grown up part of us, but often our sexuality lives in our child in a place that is innocent, has no shame and has no rules and is open to explore and learn. I have got a wonderful wonderful insight. Thank you. We are going to take a short break. We want to give a little support to our sponsors and you are listening to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I am Chip August. You do want to stay tuned because at the end of the show, Francesca is going to give us a little exercise that you might want to do at home. We will be right back

[Break]

Chip August: We are back, you are listening to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I am your host Chip August, we have just been talking to Francesca Gentille and we have been talking about sexual shamanism, we have been talking about bringing parts of yourself out in bed, we have been talking about intimate relationships. I want to move a little bit. I noticed in your background that you have lots of expertise and training and credentials in the area of addictions and relationships and communication and relationship, and depression and relationship. And I want to talk a little bit about this whole idea.

Right now it seems like there is a real popular trend to either self identify or have others identify as sex addicts or relationship addicts or love addicts. I struggle with those terms a lot and those of you who listened to the podcast a lot, you know I struggle with those terms. So, I would like to just talk a little bit about what’s an unconscious addiction in a relationship and how does one know one has one and what do you about it?

Francesca Gentille: You know, I want to say that my best credentials really are that I am a recovering sex and love addict and I am a recovering food addict. And oddly enough, there are a lot of similarities between sex and love addiction and food addiction. Both of them are addictions that you can’t just go cold turkey. You can’t say “Oh I am being compulsive about food, I just won’t eat; oh I am being compulsive about falling in love or sexuality, I just think I won’t be related to anyone.” Both of those things will be extremely unhealthy, so what we are looking for is balance and how do I know that it’s out of balance.

Well, some people if we go back to food have high metabolisms, they can eat morning till night, my brother was one of those skinny little guy and just could eat all the time and I am one of those more voluptuous girls that I have to be careful what I eat. So it’s even -- there is a range of in a sense our drives or our needs, now how do we know that it has stepped over into a compulsion. And, one of the things that I have noticed for myself and a question we can ask ourselves is am I -- you know if it’s food, am I eating this to avoid my feelings of depression, numbness, anger, boredom, so I am not eating because I am literally hungry, I am eating because I am not dealing with some other feelings.

Feelings are part of our wisdom. The ancients believe that the seat of wisdom was in the heart. There are 40,000, neurons in the heart, more synoptic neurons than any other part of the body except the brain. And so our emotions are meant to be guides and teachers for us. This is one of the warnings in our culture. We are told to stuff our emotions, emotions are dangerous, don’t go there. So, I have these emotions I can’t deal with. Maybe I am be suffering, I feel like I don’t belong in the world, I feel that I am not loved, I feel that you know may be I have an inner critic and I am turning to something, may be I am turning food as one, but I could be turning to sex or it could be turning to falling in love.

There is wonderful chemical dump that happens in our brains when we fall in love, you know, the phenylethylamine, the dopamines, the endorphins, the oxytocins, and they are higher high than LSD or Ecstasy or anything and I was more of a love addict than a sex addict, but there was a sexual component for me. And now that I am in balance, I still have, you know, it’s a core universal need for sexual expression, core universal need for touch, I still have those needs and I have more choice about them, where before I was very out of control. I think that’s a sign of addiction as well is in a way people saying, oh you know I just fell in love, I can’t help myself, it’s just there and oh and then I just fall out of love, I am no longer in love with you Chip, I can’t help myself. To me that’s a sign of definitely unconsciousness and being out of control.

Now, if I am constantly falling in love and going from relationship to relationship to relationship, to me that’s a sign at least of unconsciousness if not a certain amount of compulsivity. In my life I noticed that I was negative 15 minutes between relationships. The last relationship was an even dead, it wasn’t even over, and I would already be intriguing with the next person to have a new relationship because I couldn’t stand to be alone. I wanted someone’s adoration of me to take away the pain of living.

And then also with sexuality. So, some people have that with sexuality is the hunt or the drive is it takes away the pain of living. Now, I think sex is an amazing thing, I love it and I adore it and I teach all about sexuality. It’s a good stuff and I what I want to bring to people is it’s possible to enjoy it and play with it and have it nourish us in just delicious ways, that nourish our whole lives. So is sex something that I am lying to have it, I am cheating to have it, I am saying to myself, well this is taking hours at the computer and it’s taking away from my relationship with you because I am on the internet, you how, with porn or for women, it’s romance addiction, our porn, it’s romance novels. And it’s taking away from my relationship with my beloved. Is this something where I promise I am going to stop and I am still going out and starting up new relationships and may be having affairs because I can’t stop. So, I think those are some of the hallmarks.

Chip August: I noticed I get lost in that whole question of, is love addictive. Can we come up with a better term or something?

Francesca Gentille: What I mean by don’t fall in love is that often we see people who on very little information they have just met someone and they may be they like some of the movies or they both like dancing or there is—once again very little information, may be they were raised in a similar town or something like that. And then I would run home to my girlfriend, and I would say, oh – or you know if you are my guyfriend, oh I just met the amazing guy and he is just and he likes dancing and you know some of my favorite movies, he likes those too.

And I just think we have – I really feel there is great potential between us, I mean positive fantasy. I am fantasizing about this great connection and great relationship that’s going to happen between us and I really have may be two or three pieces of information. And when I do this as a woman and some man, I literally give myself away, I lose my own sense of center, I lose some of my brain cells, I am not thinking clearly. And then I am so involved in this fantasy about this man or if you are man, this woman who is going to take the pain away of living, as the Buddhists say, the suffering that is common to all humanity, that this person is the big fish that is going to take it all away.

And that I am not seeing clearly, I am not making clear choices, I give them him my money, I move in with him, I get married, I have children within the first six months, oh by the way this is my story. It really is. And what I finally realized is that there is grounding in love, there is an opening to love which is what you are talking about. And I notice this is the hallmark of soulmate relationships is that when people are in these really divine relationships, and then I would say what about my beloved. I would say, you know, I have met someone and he is really a wonderful human being. We share a lot of common values, he does like dancing and that’s wonderful. But you can hear in my voice there is a grounded sense, it’s deep in my body, it’s not this light voice that you know everything is carrying me away.

And I agree with you that it it’s important to open to love and to have that as a conscious choice. In many spiritual paths, we want to have this sense of not being judgmental and seeing the divine spark in every human being and feeling moved, touched, and inspired by every single person we meet. So I would say, recognizing the beauty of the soul of each person and feeling that moved sense of love for them. That’s the spiritual path that’s very different from I am falling in love and this person is actually my drug, and I need to have them and I need to have them now and I need to get them into my life and maybe I need to have sex with them or may be I need to get them to commit to me in some way because that’s going to be the answer and that’s going to finally make me feel good about myself.

Chip August: Often, what I coach people is I want to look at those, the two parts of the equation which are: could you stop if you wanted to; like you are actually choosing this or is this overtaking you and are you hurting yourself or you are hurting others in your life. And I noticed that, am I falling in love with the guys who pick up my trash or am I my falling in love with a man who delivers my mail right now, she was a woman, but now she left and then somebody else. I feel like I have total control over what’s happening for me, I am making a choice and I am doing things which are actually enhancing my relationships and making me feel better and making the other people feel better, not to feel worse.

You keep saying this is your life story, so I want to offer a little hope to people also. So, we are going to take a little break, but when we come back I would love it if you’d be willing to talk a little bit about your own transformation from that addictive behavior into what I understand is a really great relationship. And, so we are going to take a short break and when we come back, Francesca is going to solve the problems of the universe and help us understand the path out of this mess, but right now please listen to this commercial break and we will be right back.

[Break].

Chip August: Welcome back to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I am your host Chip August and Francesca and I were talking about addiction and how you know what is addiction and love and where that all happens. And I noted in the materials that you gave me before this interview, there was a thing that said newly engaged Francesca is ecstatically practicing tantra and kama sutra with her beloved. And I think it would be great to talk about that transformation of -- so you have battled, you have wrestled with the demons of addiction and how do you get into recovery and how do you know you are in recovery and what does the recovery look like and feel like, could you talk about that a little bit please.

Francesca Gentille: Well, I want to distinguish to what addiction feels like and what it felt like to me was the other person was where my self esteem came from. If they weren’t constant, you know, in some way reflecting back to me that I was a good person if they weren’t going, so deeper and deeper into commitment with me. There was always the next thing that would prove that they loved me and that it was worthwhile. And when someone might break up with me in a way that I hadn’t planned for the next lover, so never alone, I would feel devastated, I really would feel like I was going through withdrawals.

And one of the times this happened, I went to the 12-Step Program. So I really did do sex and love addicts. At first I was at the meetings with men and women and then realized it was like an alcoholic going to a bar to have a 12-Step meeting. So, I ended up doing the women only meetings for a while and then at a certain point now I could go back and I could be in the room with men and women and I am centered enough that that’s fine, but when I was first recovering I really needed to just be with women because men are my addiction.

So, what it took was a process of facing myself really. I think the greatest growth in every real spiritual tradition will point you in this direction is when we really start to look at ourselves and as you said face our demons. And it’s not face our demons like, “out damn demon, begone,” oddly enough, it’s face our demons like “oh you poor little thing, you know you are just -- come here and what is really going on, what do you really want.” And what I found out is when I really talk in a sense literally I can dial-up by writing in a journal, I can have a therapist help me do an inner-voice dialog between myself and this part of me that I have shut out.

And when I do these kind of dialogs, I find that this part of me is precious, it has something important to tell me, may be it’s saying you never have enough fun, you are working all the time and the only way we have fun is by falling in love, the only way we have fun is having sex. Or maybe it tells me that I am so critical of myself that I am always yelling at myself inside saying “Oh I am so stupid, I shouldn’t have said that, oh I wore the wrong thing to the party.” And the only time that the voice is quiet is when I am having sex or when I am falling in love.

So what i discover is that there is this process of learning to love myself, there is this process of learning to make my life more rich in a lot of ways. So, I have been through this where I have done inner-voice dialog with different parts of myself. I found the inner energy sucking vampire. I have found the inner manipulator, the inner beast and also sometimes we lose, like we lose the child, we lose some of the most beautiful selves, the creative selves, I found the inner divine priestess of love, I found so many things that were shut down to me.

And I have come to love myself and have compassion for myself, where before it was can you love me because I actually hate me. So can you love me. And now I actually have compassionate love for myself, so I can bring something to the relationship. So, when I am with my beloved today, you know, certainly I will make a request, could you tell me I look beautiful today, could you give me a hug and I feel fine making the request where before I would have dropped hints and then may be I would have been angry that he didn’t tell me that I looked nice or I would have been angry that he didn’t give me a hug when my chin was down and my eyelids were droopy and I would have wanted him to know.

So, what I would say to people who might be thinking, “oh this is me,” is it takes a certain amount of time. It helps to get support. You know, 12-Step Program therapy, I really advocate for the inner-voice diaglog or any program that helps look at the kind of the shadow selves, a part that we repress, deny, reject, lose that is in ourselves, then we project other someone else, you are the problem. And then as we go, we will notice that we feel happier and happier over time. So that when we are having a relationship, it is from a place of what I have to give.

And healthy relationship, i don’t want people to go into codependency here. It is not like, oh I give, I give, I am healthy, so I am just going to overgive and deplete myself. No, healthy is, I am going to give and I am going to notice my limits. I am going to say, “oh you know, honey I am tired or I can't give that right now.” So, it is a place of being balanced and this is the big breakthrough.

I wasn’t raised with any sense of limits or boundaries. I thought you were supposed to be a good person, you are always supposed to give to other people. I would give, overgive, build resentment, I would yell at you, I would say, “You know, I am always giving to you, you are never giving to me”. And I didn’t know how to set a boundary with compassion. So, what i have learned is that is the balance. If we are compassionate with our boundaries, we become the victim, if we are always boundaries, you don’t get to treat me this way, you are supposed to do it like that, then I become the tyrant.

And if I can say to you, you know, what I really would love is a hug. I am feeling a little depleted and I would love a hug right now. And I would love that as something to help me. You are not bad if you can't give it, but I would really love that and in fact I love your hugs, you just give the most delicious hugs and when you give them, I feel so relaxed and so happy and there is a point some there in there I might even feel aroused. It is a way of communicating that the other person is going to be so much more likely to give us what we want or to stop doing something that we are finding difficult.

Chip August: You are just -- every other sentence is like some little pearl of wisdom. So, we are coming to the end of our time and I am sure people are going to want to know more about you and learn more about you. Now, I understand you have been the contributing author in a couple of anthologies and could you tell people what those are and how they might be able to find you there.

Francesca Gentille: The books that I have contributed to are the "Marriage of Sex and Spirit," wonderful book, 47 authors, won the national book award. Also "Rights of Pleasure" and the "Idiot's Guide to Tantric Sex," which is just great, you can open up anywhere in it. Simple exercise, practical, like you said, pearls of wisdom throughout, very fun to share as a couple.

Chip August: And then i know that you are also host of your own podcast, can you tell people how they might listen to you.

Francesca Gentille: My podcast is "Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra bringing you the soul of sex. I am hoping to have you on it on one of these days. And you would also find it at www.personallifemedia.com and then you would look Sex, Tantra and Kama Sutra.

Chip August: You have been a terrific guest, I really really appreciate on making this time. I would like to end my shows by giving the listeners a thing that they might be able to do in their own life, a little exercise, an idea that they can bring into their own bedroom or just into their own life that could maybe bring more sex, love or intimacy to them or better sex, love or intimacy and I am seeing you nod your head, so I am thinking maybe you got something in mind.

Francesca Gentille: I do. I am going to do this fast, but you would it slower at home. This is something you can have in your own mind or you can say out loud to a beloved. You would look into the eyes of your beloved in a gentle way, normally they say left eye to left eye, relax the jaw, relax the belly and looking into one another's eyes, this is called the meditation of the four abodes, you imagine that you can see some of the suffering in this person's eyes, some of the times that they have been rejected, that they have lost something, a dream has died, everyone has suffered. So you imagine that you can see some of that and breathe.

Then you would enter into the second abode where you imagine that you can see in this person's eyes, some of their gifts, skills, and talents, their hopes and dreams, just how amazing they really are and what they have to bring to the world and you breathe and relax the jaw and the belly.

And then you enter still looking into one another's eyes, the third abode, where you imagine that you can see a glimpse, perhaps more, of what could be possible if you shared your gifts, skills and talents with this person's gifts, skills and talents, what beauty you could bring to the world, what harmony, what blessing by sharing really your spirits and gifts with one another and breathe.

And then you enter into the fourth abode and you imagine that you can see a glimpse, perhaps more of the many lifetimes that you have known this person. We have all in many traditions lived many lifetimes together, times when we have been friends or siblings or parent and child or teacher and student or beloveds. And I invite you to take your time with this, I am going through it very quickly, but this is something that really brings a deep connection in looking into another person that opening to love that we talk about.

And if it is said that if we could do this, see the suffering, the gifts and skills and talents, what we could create with someone in the many lifetimes that we have known them with every human being at all times. This would be the place of enlightenment.

Chip August: Wow, that sounds very, very, very, very, sweet. So, thank you, great exercise, great interview, I want to really appreciate you for coming and joining me today. I think people are going to get a lot of value out of this. If you would like text or transcripts of this or any of the Personal Life Media shows, feel free to come see us on our website personallifemedia.com, that's all one word. Listeners if you want to leave a message for me, you can actually leave phone messages at 206-350-5333. Please leave your name, leave the name of my show, “Sex, Love and Intimacy,” leave your question or your comment and leave your phone and/or your email address. And please note that when you leave a message on this line, that is your agreement for us to potentially use it on air because we may use it on air. So, please don’t leave messages that you don’t want put on to on air. Thanks.

We are coming up to the end of our time together. I want to remind you please to tune in every week. We will have a new show, new guests and one last time I just want to thank you Francesca. Thank you very much for being here.

Francesca Gentille: My pleasure.

Chip August: Well, I will talk to you again soon. That's all for now, bye.

[Music]

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