Episode 28: Women on Women

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There are three types of women. 1) Those who exclusively like men. 2) Those who like both men and women. 3) Those who only like women. On this episode, we explore women who like women, whether exclusively or in addition to their relationships with men. First, hear from Stephanie – a woman who draws oodles of attention from many men -- on how she came to terms with her identity as a lesbian. Next, hear from women who say they mostly like men about their attraction for members of their same sex.

For those who want help with their flirting techniques, go to http://onetaste.us/flirt. You’ll find tips from Stephanie, (a master at flirting with women) on how to improve your success rate.


This program is intended for mature audiences only.

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J: Steph wasn’t born knowing that she was a lesbian. But at age 20 she started to have a recurring thought.

Steph: When I was driving home from school everyday, the same spot I would hit on the highway, it was coming onto a bridge, coming down onto a new highway, I would have this recurring thought in my head. “What if I’m a lesbian? What if I’m a lesbian? What if I’m a lesbian?” and I would go over it and over it and over it.

J: The thought generated a lot of emotion.

Steph: I would have fear and anxiety and then curiosity and a lot of emotions would come up and then I would just suppress it even more. Because there was no way for me to act on it, I didn’t know how to act on it, I didn’t know what to do about it. I didn’t know who to talk to about it.

J: Sexual identity. You’d think it was something that would be encoded in our DNA and we’d just know. As easily as we knew whether we liked chocolate or not we would know whether we liked men or women or both. That’s true for some people but for others the deciding of whether they like the same or opposite sex, is a big question, one that requires an exploration, a discovery process that can take a long time. Once the result is in it can still be heart wrenching for everyone including the person involved, their family and their friends. From One Taste urban Retreat Center in San Francisco we bring you A Taste of Sex Reality Audio, a podcast featuring stories and perspectives from people engaged in the conscious exploration of connection, sensuality and relationship. This week we look at sexual identity. Specifically, women who like women. In part one we’ll hear Steph’s story of discovery. And in part two we’ll hear from a group of women who identify mostly as heterosexual but still like women. We’ll hear why they like women and just what turns them on. I’m J. Stay tuned.

Steph breaks the butch lesbian stereotype. She’s pretty with long hair and a killer body and she flirts mercilessly with both men and women. Still, her energy is clearly biased toward women. In fact she adores women as much as any man. She’s like a female lothario. She takes pleasure in drawing women out. All of them. The shy ones, the outgoing ones, the sneaky ones and the flighty ones. As easily as she plays that role now, Steph’s overt expression of her sexuality is only a few years old. Her first relationship with a woman didn’t happen until two years ago, at age 21. Growing up she was a tomboy. She liked boys but usually as a means to an end.

Steph: I do remember liking boys in elementary school but I always liked the most popular kid. It was about getting into the coolest kid or the smartest kid, the cutest boy. It never went anywhere it was mostly just someone to play soccer with. Or to beat up or to tease or whatever.

J: Her first hint that she might be different came in elementary school. Like lots of other pubescent girls, Steph experimented some with boys her age. It never felt right.

Steph: I remember like making out with a boy when I was in fifth grade, it was weird and gross. I had little experiences with boys here and there growing up but I never fantasized about them or wanted to do it again, I guess.

J: Looking back Steph says she was pretty much asexual. She didn’t like boys but neither was she really thinking about girls, until age 16, when she started having dreams about them.

Steph: As many dreams I would have about men I would have about women. They were kind of equal. And I really enjoyed the dreams about women.

J: What did you enjoy about them?

Steph: They were different. It was…no one knew about it. It was my secret. It felt good. It just felt good. It was comfortable I guess.

J: Unsure of what she wanted, she started dating a guy.

Steph: So at 16 to 19 I had dreams about women, I had dreams about men. I wasn’t really sexual with any other person and then I started dating a guy and we had a relationship. It was off and on for six months as friends, we’re like we want to date, we don’t want to date, we want to have sex, we don’t want to have sex. And then for the second half of the year we were together and it was really weird, we were having sex and I just wasn’t feeling it. Every month, every weekend I would break up with him. Look this isn’t working out. And I had expressed to him my bi-curiosity. So I had this phase where I was dreaming about women, I liked them, I didn’t really understand that and then I moved into like a bi-curiosity phase. Oh, I’m bi-curious. I want to try out with women, maybe have a threesome or something. Well when my first boyfriend mentioned “How ‘bout we have a threesome?” I said, “No I don’t want to share her with you! I want to have her to myself.”

J: After a year of friendship and dating, she finally broke up with him. Even then she didn’t know how she felt about her sexuality.

Steph: I actually suppressed it more after I broke up with him.

J: Why did you suppress it?

Steph: I don’t know. I guess I was scared to open up to it. I didn’t know what it meant.

J: So what was the path from this wondering if you’re a lesbian to like clearly knowing that you actually were?

Steph: So I actually dated men for a year. I thought “oh this first boyfriend, he’s a butt head. I’ll just go meet a really nice guy” and so I did and then they didn’t work out I would have a lot of anxiety around it, around the sex with guys, I would freak out afterwards and I’d go on a couple of dates and I don’t really want to do this. So I sort of just gave it up. And I took a big break from it. I met this girl at a party, totally unexpected, her name was Abby. She came over and she hung out with me and we talked and we totally hit if off and I remember thinking I wonder if I could ask this girl to make out with me in the bathroom, if she would totally go for being my first girl make out. But I didn’t ask her that. I just had that thought in my head. She gave me her number, we switched numbers and so two weeks later she called me and invited me over to a house party. And I’m walking up with her and she goes “Don’t worry. There’s no boys here so you don’t have to worry about looking cute.” This girl’s definitely gay. And I got there there was this huge rainbow flag above the fireplace and there’s, I don’t know, twenty or thirty girls and clearly they’re all just less butch, more butch, femme, whatever and I felt immediately comfortable and at home. It was easy to interact with them and be myself. And they asked me, we were playing dominos and after a while, “So. We have to ask you. What’s your sexuality?” I said, “I don’t know. I’m straight for now,” is what I said. And it actually took several months for me to be introduced to the lesbian scene, introduced to the gay bars, to see what actually really goes on in the gay community.

J: After that she found herself growing more and more curious. She met an older woman and had her first kiss.

Steph: That was when my body knew “oh, this is what I want”. I actually went over to her place a few days later and she had her own house and everything. “Hey! Let’s watch the Mavericks game.” She said, “Yeah. You can come over and watch the Mavericks game.” It turned out she didn’t have the channel to watch the Mavericks game so what did we do? I don’t know. We started making out on the couch. That whole night was like my first lesbian experience. I was nervous, I was really nervous.

J: What were you nervous about?

Steph: I don’t know. Just this whole new ballgame, you know. Something that I’d been repressing inside of me for so long and finally, my real sex is being exposed I guess. And I was wondering what if I don’t know what to do?

J: And did you?

Steph: I don’t even remember actually. I’m sure her taking over mostly. It was her showing me the ropes and mostly being touched instead of touching, I guess.

J: So what were the feelings that came up for you, good and bad?

Steph: Oh, good and bad? Let’s see. The good ones, I felt complete freedom, I felt complete comfort, I was completely comfortable to be myself, to express myself this way, happy to actually be getting pleasure in the way that I want to. Bad feelings? There weren’t really a whole lot. I was unhappy for so long and I was finally happy.

J: The next hurdle was her family. She started with her siblings.

Steph: I actually told every single person in my family besides my parents.

J: You did? What were the reactions?

Steph: So my brother and his wife, were actually the best about it. Because she’s, her name’s Nicole, my brother’s name is Matthew and Nicole has a brother, his name’s Matthew and he’s gay. So they’re very supportive of it. Nicole had mentioned a few years back when I was 17 I think, 16 or 17 and she’s like “Matthew. Do you think your sister might be gay?” And he said, “No, no.” and totally brushed it off.

J: Because you’re this very cute, thin, not butch at all, like a kind of a femme, long hair, very pretty.

Steph: I never felt that way though growing up. I’ve always been a tomboy. At this point when she said that, I think I had packed on about 20 pounds. I didn’t wear cute clothes. It was just jeans and a t-shirt, very boyish. I still cared about my hair. I had long hair, whatnot. I didn’t feel pretty, I didn’t feel feminine. But she called it out and he brushed it off. When I told them she was like “I knew it.” I said “Why didn’t you tell me before, you know? You could have saved me a whole lot of trouble. If someone would have just said – hey! You may be a lesbian.” But I guess it’s my journey, I have to find it out myself.

J: Why did you wait with your parents?

Steph: My dad’s a Catholic guy, he’s not super, super strict on his religion, he’s really lax and allows us, all of his kids, to find our own way, find our own belief in faith but still expecting us to believe in the same things he believes in. And he’s Catholic, so no sex before marriage, homosexuality’s bad or mostly, it’s okay to be gay but it’s not okay to have gay sex. But my dad’s always been someone I could talk to. I never felt that I would be shunned or abandoned or looked down upon or anything. I always knew that I would be unconditionally loved no matter what.

J: You’ve been listening to A Taste of Sex. Stay with us. We’ll be back with more after this short break.

Listen to A Taste of Sex, erotic poetry reading. A companion program to life in an orgasm based community. It’s open mike night at One Taste San Francisco, a weekly audio program on personallifemedia.com.

J: Welcome back to a Taste of Sex. I’m J.

Steph: They actually knew that I was gay before I told them. My mom found out from Myspace. I put on there my sexuality.

J: Finally, she decided to talk to her parents.

Steph: My dad always brings in the religion – he plays the religion card so we had the religion discussion. And I was like well, you know you have your faith and I have mine and I’m not going to follow yours, I’m going to follow my own heart and I don’t feel wrong for doing it and standing my ground and whatnot. And he was, that’s fine. I still love you no matter what. Awesome, great. And then my mom, I called her about two weeks later and I said “Mom. Let’s talk about me being gay. When did you know?” She’s like “Well I found out through Myspace” “How do you feel about it?” And then she said, “Well, I don’t know. I was a little disappointed.” I was like “Why? Why were you disappointed?” She said, “Because you were unhappy for so long.” My heart dropped. That’s so awesome for you to say that. Thank you.

J: Now you’re in a situation where…well, I know you so I know that you’re meeting more women who are more bi-curious or bi-sexual than actual lesbian, which is a different scene than the one that you came from, right? So how is that for you?

Steph: I actually hated bi girls, coming in. I don’t like them. They don’t know what they’re doing.

J: Are they not pure, is that it?

Steph: They’re not pure. They’re just going to run back to their boyfriends, sort of thing. But I’ve just learned that I’m not going to have a full-on, lovey dovey intimate relationship with a bi girl. I’m just going to have fun with her and experience her and whatnot.

J: Do you feel like you’re learning more about women?

Steph: Definitely.

J: And what are you learning?

Steph: I’m learning I can turn any woman on, pretty much. And anyone can turn any woman on. You just can’t have an outcome or an expectation with it. The more open and vulnerable you are with a woman, the more she’s going to like you and be open and vulnerable with you and the more doors that opens up for like sexual play or spiritual play or any sort of play. And with bi girls you’re not really sure if they want to…they’re sort of a little bit more reserved so you kind of take your time. With lesbians, you know you both like each other and sex is just there in the middle, screaming. And with bi girls it’s sort of hidden, you got to…

J: You’ve got to tease it out more.

Steph: Yeah. You’ve got to tease it out more and go in further and it’s so much fun to do that.

J: If you’re in a room with a bunch of women and they may or may not be bi curious or bi sexual or maybe there’s even one or two lesbians in there, or not, I’m just wondering how you feel. Do you feel different because you know that your sexual orientation is towards women?

Steph: No.

J: No. okay. Or do you feel like you understand them?

Steph: Yeah. Definitely understand them. Or not. I’m looking to understand women more. Or people in general more. If I’m in a room full of women I’ll probably flirt with 80% of them just because I’m flirtatious in general and I flirt with everyone.

J: Even the boys.

Steph: Right. And there’s no outcome, there’s no goal in it. It’s just to flirt and play because it’s lighthearted and fun and it’s not too serious.

J: So if you had advice, say for men, who want to get close to women but they don’t quite know how to do it, what would you say?

Steph: Take your time, really. Go slow about it and really look at her and look inside rather than what’s on the outside. Because men are stuck on, I feel they want to flirt, they have a goal, there’s an outcome, an expectation. And not all men do this but mostly for young men, and they’re extremely attracted to a girl, I really want them, I want to go to bed with them. And if you’re beyond all that there’s so much more connection and there’s so much more turn on there. And they’ll be turned on to you when you go deep with them.

J: Thanks Steph. That’s the end of our interview with Steph. But we have a special offer this week. For those of you who want to up your flirting skills we have twenty tips from Steph on how to flirt with women. And let me tell you I have watched this girl in action so I can say that she knows what she’s talking about. Got a pen and paper? You’ll want to go to the following url. It’s onetaste.us/flirt. Once again, that’s onetaste.us/flirt. And don’t worry. It’s free. Moving on. Those bi girls Steph was talking about? They circulate a lot around One Taste. They identify as bi-sexual or mostly heterosexual with a little bit of bi. But all of them have a special attraction for women. In part two we talk to them, finding out just what about women turns them on.

J: What’s your sexual identity?

Girl Three: I identify as bi-sexual. I remember the moment that I actually checked it off on a box. Like I was at the hospital and they asked what my sexual identity was and I said bi-sexual and that’s the first time I actually said it and it was “recorded” and made it official.

J: And how did you feel?

Girl Three: I felt kind of weird. I felt like wow! I’m finally owning it. Like before, it was just like a mental state. It was something that I had expressed interest in women or that I had made out with women but it was more internal and I think it was once I actually checked that box or something, there’s something about that that actually made it external. Because then now other people would see me as bi-sexual.

J: How do you identify sexually?

Girl One: Well I don’t really go by sexual labels. I like women but I would never want to be in a relationship with a woman so I wouldn’t say I was bi-sexual even if it’s just a sexual act.

J: When you say that you like women what do you mean?

Girl One: It means that I like being sexual with women. I like their bodies. I guess just that I have an attraction.

J: And what are you attracted to?

Girl One: Like the way that you get close to her before you even touch her. And then the different feelings of the body, the skin, the hair, feeling a woman’s body is a totally different experience to a man’s. Actually I don’t see how anyone couldn’t like it.

J: And what turns you on about it?

Girl One: That feeling of teasing and seduction and moving really slowly and exploring someone’s ankle with my fingertips and having a woman really enjoy that. Whereas with men it’s like, I feel like there’s a drive to be more centralized in life, central exploration.

J: I think we know what that means! Thank you. What’s your sexual identity?

Girl Two: My sexual identity? The whole idea of an identity is interesting. I mean I think I just consider myself a sexual being, just part of what it is to be human.

J: And what do you mean by that?

Girl Two: My identity would be…I’ve known myself to be heterosexual, I mean I’ve had experiences with women so but as far as how I identify? I wouldn’t say I’m a lesbian, I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily bi-curious. There’s a way in which I kind of don’t want to be in any one category because none of them feel entirely true. It feels like what’s more true is underneath a layer of identity which is just that. It just is.

J: Let’s ask another question. Is there anything about women that you like, sexually? Is there an experience of being with a woman that is different and somehow pleasing?

Girl Five: I had an experience after a long time of not being with women, I’d been married for almost nine years, and monogamous, a heterosexual relationship. I had been with women before I got married and the first experience I had with a woman, after that, after having been married that long and not being with women was just really sensual and I was really aware of how smooth she was and really aware of…really turned on by the kind of sensual quality that was really slow and smooth. I don’t know how to describe it but it was lighter, like some kind of lighter energy. I don’t know if that’s just her or if that’s because she was a women or if it was our connection. I don’t know what that was. I was totally turned on.

J: Thank you. How do you identity sexually?

Girl Four: I identify as heterosexual with a little teeny bit of bi-sexual in there as well.

J: So do you ever get turned on by women?

Girl Four: Yes. I definitely get turned on by women. And I have had great experiences playing with women. And it’s wonderful because it feels different and it’s a different kind of pleasure. It’s like I just enjoy like the feeling of camaraderie and like friendship and love mixed with a kind of kinky sexuality that I think it just really fun.

J: And how do you feel about women right now?

Girl Six: Women are crazy. It definitely can be more difficult terrain. And even though I know it’s not really true, I feel that men have simpler needs and desires and it’s easier to make a man happy. It’s like you have a more clear idea of what they want. But women, our wants are much more convoluted and complicated and so sometimes I’m just baffled. I’m like, I don’t know how to please her here.

J: And do you think that that opening of that sexual energy between two women that that’s what complicates things? That has you see into some of the craziness that otherwise you might never have known about?

Girl Six: Definitely. I think that that gets things flowing and that we keep under wraps. And so you open up your sexuality and then all sorts of things start to open up, things that you didn’t expect to open up. And you find yourself, me too, I find myself being crazy in ways that I wasn’t expecting.

J: What’s your sexual identity?

Girl Seven: I don’t have a label for it. Most of my relationships in the past have been I guess straight, with men. I don’t really label anything, I’m actually just attracted to different qualities in human beings, women and men.

J: What turns you on about women, specifically?

Girl Eight: Women specifically? The curves, the softness of the lips, the way there’s a receptivity that women have often in their eyes that totally entrances me and lures me in.

Thank you for listening to A Taste of Sex. Don’t forget that you can get 20 tips from Steph on how to flirt with women by going to onetaste.us/flirt. Again, that’s onetaste.us/flirt. For transcripts of the show you can go to personallifemedia.com. I’m J. Join us next week.

J: What do you like about girls?

Girl: What do I like about women?

J: Okay. What do you like about women?

Girl: It’s all about the energy. They’re more sensual, they’re more compassionate, I feel like they’re more evolved than men, they’re more complex, more fun, they know how to play. There’s less of an insecurity between two women than there are between a man and a woman.

Woman: Find more great shows like this on PersonalLifeMedia.com.