Episode 19: The Calculating Minds of Women
“Women are very calculating…They have a very covert power that they can use to their advantage and that’s the advantage of their sex. It’s something that men are blinded by. that I am -- of course -- blinded by. It’s like a drug. You don’t care. You don’t even care if they are calculating.” --Joshua, OneTaste Resident
Women calculate. What to say, what not to say. How to get favors from friends. How to get productivity from coworkers. How to keep a safe distance if they are not interested in sex. How to seduce if they are. In nearly every interaction, about nearly every part of their lives, they calculate.
Hear the inside story on the mechanics of a woman’s mind as the women of OneTaste confess some of their most embarrassing calculations, including attempts to calculate the future. Also, one man’s perspective on why women calculate, especially about sex.
Announcer: This program is intended for mature audiences only.
Woman 2: When I want to call up a friend and ask them for something either for an advice or a favor or anything like that, if I haven’t talked to them for a while, I'll put in one or two courtesy calls just to reconnect and catch up with them like we were involved and be a good friend. Then on the second or third call, I'll just act like, “Oh, I just thought of this. Hey, how about this?” In that way, they don’t feel like I'm just calling them to ask them for something and I don’t feel like I'm just using them.
J : Women are calculators, real human machines that constantly grind the numbers. “The numbers of what?” you may ask. Since I'm a woman, I can tell you that the basic calculation behind all the calculations has to do with the conservation of energy. If I put my energy up over here, what will the return on my investment be? Or will I just tap to invest more energy later from which I will never see a profit?
J : This is “A Taste of Sex”, a reality audio program brought to you by One Taste Urban Retreat Center in San Francisco. Today’s topic “The Calculating Minds of Women”.
At One Taste, we deliberately explore the everyday yet important aspects of life such as connection, sensuality, and relationship. Our business offers night time classes and weekend workshops. We also have a live-in program where people immerse themselves full time. On this program, we share some of the personal stories and revelations from that exploration.
On part one today, we'll hear from a few women at One Taste on their most embarrassing calculations. Part two, I'll talk about my own attempts to calculate the future. Part three, we'll get one man’s frustrated and sometimes enraged perspective. If you've ever been curious about what goes on inside a woman’s mind, this is the show for you. I'm J . Tune in and turn on.
So I'm asking women about their calculations that they make and it can be around men or sex or women or food or whatever. So I'm wondering what your calculations are.
Woman 2: So, I'm constantly calculating like, “Why is this person talking to me? What do they want?”
July : So say you decide that a guy wants to go on a date with you, then are you making a calculation as to how much you're going to give him or how you're going to turn him away without seemingly like a bad person.
Woman 2: So if he decides at some point to ask me for my number, what would I do there? Am I somewhat interested or am I even just fooling myself that actually even if I give him my number, I'll have to navigate turning him down later on when he calls me. Do I want to do that or do I want to nip it in the bud right away? That’s really something that goes on in my head.
Woman 3: When I was a much younger woman I used to calculate because I definitely did not want to lead men on. I had had a few experiences where men became enraged and indignant and would accused me of being a tease, and I was afraid of their rage. So I was definitely calculating whether or not I was leading them on or if I was just being real and that took a lot of energy.
J : What was the switch that changed it?
Woman 3: Well, yes, a few factors. One was menopause and not having raging hormones driving my conversations about marriage or having sex. Once that was no longer in the forefront of my consciousness, it made a big difference. Becoming totally self-reliant and not looking for a male [sp] partner as my primary conversation when I woke up in the morning made a big difference.
J : So what's your calculation?
Woman 4: So I need a man and from the moment I look into his eyes, I'm thinking, “I wonder what kind of lover he's going to be?” If I think that he might be a good lover, then I start getting turned on and I start flirting. But then once I see that he might be getting turned on, too, then I get a little freaked out because I think, “Oh, all he wants from me is sex, anyway.” So rather than actually owning up to the fact that I was turned on to it, I turned into being a victim and I start turning my calculations into how this man has victimized me and how can I get out of his grasp?
J : So it's like calculation gone awry, one calculation turns into another.
Woman 4: Exactly. One calculation that starts off with good intentions of, “Where could this go? We could really connect, we could really play” turns into another calculation of “All you want from me is sex anyway, so I might as well get out of this now because you're not going to see me.”
J : So how is it to hear this coming out of your mouth?
Woman 4: In my body, I'm actually speakin and a lot of times I see things and I hear them and they're almost a surprise like I wasn't expecting to hear them. “Oh, wow! I didn’t know that was true about myself.”
J : Did you not know that you were a calculator?
Woman 4: I had no idea I was a calculator. I know I play games but I didn’t know it was calculating and playing these games until you asked me the question and then looked at it and thought, “Hmm.” Then the truth just started rattling out of my mouth, I didn’t know where it came from.
Woman 5: So my calculations usually come in the form of production. So when I see a man, I usually size him up on how much he can do for me. Then I usually go in there, test him [xx] and throw him some flirt. I flirt with him a little bit to see if he comes in and takes a bite. Then, I'll ask him to do something and if he says yes then it's a good sign. But if he says no, then it's more like, “Oh, well, then I don’t really need to talk to him anymore. I don’t need to throw him a flirt as much anymore. If he says yes, then I'll keep putting my attention on him.
Then when I need things like having him do things for me. It's like do things for me, and I understand where it's like, “Oh, get this for me or get that for me.” But more on the sense of like I'm holding on to this big picture and I need certain people who has some skills do some things. So it's like how can I use them to the best of their potentials to actually really excel that piece and at the same time get what I want then.
J : What's your calculation?
Woman 6: So when I meet a guy and I am assessing whether or not I like him, can we talk about truth? Is he cute? Is he attractive? How do I feel around him? And I realize that I do like him, I want to find a way to stay completely open to him no matter what he's talking about. So if he's talking about something that I'm interested in, it's really easy for me to talk that talk. But if he's talking about something that I'm not interested in, I find some place inside of me that is connected or associated to that topic like dirt bike racing, I don’t know anything about.
But if I can find some association inside of me to be open enough to keep the conversation going and hopefully draw him in. Then while the whole time that I'm talking and I might even be flirting a little bit and I'm never overtly coming on to him because I don’t want to feel rejection at all. I'll let him come on to me and then because I like him, I can say yes but I never have to come out of my shell and actually say like what I'm really thinking.
J : So the calculation is, “How can I have him come on to me without actually coming on to him, without actually letting him know that this is what I want.”
Woman 6: Yes. Yes, so he can feel like he wants it and it can all be about him. It's horrible.
J : When I first read the phrase “women are calculators”, it didn’t quite resonate with me. “The what?” I remember thinking. But then you know how something settle in and you find yourself thinking about this thing you were certain wasn't true about a year later. Then you realize if you're me, that you're calculating nearly every part of your day, that’s how it went for me. So here is my confession - I am an obsessive calculator.
By this I mean that in nearly every interaction, I'm calculating how long I will stay, how intimate I will be, how I can use you, if I really need to pay attention to get what I want from you, and whether I want to have sex with you. If I do want to have sex with you, I'm calculating how I can make it happen without appearing like I want it.
If I don’t want to have sex with you, then I'm calculating how can I give you enough to make you feel wanted and me feel like a good person without really giving you anything that I don’t want to give up. OK, I'll admit it, I am a control freak. I like to be in control and I don’t like to give up anything unless I have to. I calculate to control the future, and it that’s not possible, then at least to insure that I know what is coming, it's a protective mechanism.
I'm not so good at surprises unless they're good ones. Really, I'm not so good at anyone telling me anything that I don’t want to hear. Also I'm stubborn, I don’t want to do anything unless it was my idea. And to top it off, I may appear prickly on the outside, but I'm actually pretty soft inside which means I'm vulnerable but don’t like to show it. So I calculate.
My calculations may be split into two categories. There are the spontaneous calculations that go on all the time depending on which people I run into, what they want from me, or what I want from them. There are also longer termed calculations, my most common ones are around boyfriends. Like if I do this or that, then can I have him, keep him, or get him back.
For example, will it work to my advantage or against me if I go out with other guys? Will he think that I'm no longer interested in him? Will it make him more interested because now I'm a commodity? Or, will he not turn at all [sp] and therefore, I’m wasting my time? Then there's should I seek him out or let him come to me? Or, if I have sex with him now, will he like me more or less?
Then, there are the tortuous calculations around his interactions with other women. Does he like her? If yes, is it more or less than me? What does she offer that I don’t? What do I offer that he absolutely can't give up? Lastly, how can I pretend that I don’t care when I really do?
To be honest, I've kind of had it with the calculations, they never worked anyway. I can calculate as much as I want but it never changes the outcome. Things just go the way they go. Often times, it makes it more awkward because my actions aren’t sincere. They're calculated and in truth, the calculations drive me crazy. It's like my mind is a computer that cannot be shut down.
I'd like to let go of the calculations, but to let go also seems uncomfortable. It means that I must free fall into that out of control. But of course, you can't control life anyway. So what if I just give up trying, how bad could it be? Then there's another question, one which I really don’t have the answer to. Can these calculations, these idiots of [xx] of mind ever be put to good use?
J : This is “A Taste of Sex Reality Audio”. We'll be back after the short break.
J : Welcome back to “A Taste of Sex”. On the second half of the show, we'll continue on our theme of women as calculators. I'm J , stay tuned.
Joshua: Women are beautiful tulips and it's in God’s creatures.
J : How much do they calculate?
Joshua: I think women think there's more going on than there is and men think there is less going on than there is.
J : That was Joshua. If you can already tell, he is a pretty cynical guy, and also, in my opinion, pretty funny in a sometimes not so appropriate way which totally appeals to my sense of humor. So when we were planning this show, I remember the journal entry of his from last October where he vented frustrations at least several of which were about women.
Before you listen to Josh, I want to qualify a few points. First, the opinions reflected by Josh do not represent anyone other than Josh. Second, here's a little bit of background information, the journal entry talks about stroking which is shorthand for a sensual practice called “orgasmic meditation” that we do here at One Taste. That practice involves two people plugging into one orgasm that lies between them. We do this by having the attention focused on one person at a time. Third, keep in mind that while Josh is extremely cynical, he's also a softie at heart.
Joshua: Things I've learned by living at One Taste. One, just when I thought I was out they suck me back in.” A quote from “Godfather III” but it seem apropos. Two, if you look pretty when doing it, you're doing it wrong. Three, at many points you will hate everyone and they will hate you. Four, you will attempt and succeed at burning many bridges in the process. Five, in my best marine [sp] hippie voice, it's not all about the energy, man. Six, never tell anyone your goals if you don’t want to be held to them. Seven, run away screaming if you don’t have to have it. It's not necessary to a happy life, seriously.
Eight, women are mean, spiteful, lying cunts from which there is no escape, seriously. Nine, if women lay claim of and take anything you're unwilling to freely give and then they’ll say, “Thank you.” as if it were a gift when they’ve gotten it. Eleven, if a woman says thank you and compliment your stroking, it doesn’t mean she wants to touch your cock. As a matter of fact, now that she knows you can stroke, that’s most likely all that she ever wants from you from here on out. Well, aside from lifting things and figuring out why her documents won't print.
If you do manage to get some sex, you can bet it's because she feels either guilty or obligated or both. The only exception is if she's decided that you're also a good husband material, then she’ll fuck you to claim your ass, and if she wants to get back at or make someone jealous. She's not interested in being in “union” with you, that game was invented by men.
Joshua: I don’t think anything in there's lie or untrue in anyway, it just depends on your perspective. My state of mind at that point I was kind of upset and pissed and resentful and cynical all coming out of my frustration of my inability to understand women. Even on I think a deeper level, my inability to fully accept women and my relationship to them.
J : How much do you think that women calculate? Like how much do you think that the calculations that go on in their minds play into relationships with the opposite sex from your perspective as a man?
Joshua: Well, I think men and women are both calculating. I don’t think men are as--I don’t even want to say not as calculating. I think men are calculating in their own ways. I think men and women just find certain things more important than different things more important. What was the question again?
J : How calculating are women?
Joshua: Very calculating, God damn it. Yes, no, they're very calculating in relation to men. The calculating just means strategic I think. What information to let out, what parts to let be seen. Women have a very covert element to them and power which they can use to their advantage, and that’s the advantage of their sex. Men are blinded by it, I'm of course blinded by it because you don’t care at that point it's like a drug, you don’t even care if she's calculating. You're just like, ‘I don’t care, it feels so good.” Then you get burned later on.
J : Do you think that women are calculating this turn on of energy or turn on of their sex like the way they throw it at men. Do you think that’s all pure calculation or what?
Joshua: I mean, is it all pure calculation? No. Is it deliberately used often in their calculations? Yes. I think a lot of this is simply, “I really want him” and the natural drive of a woman is to admit that turn on, that blinding light of sex and love that all men are always seeking.
J : So I'm curious as to whether this particular journal entry that you wrote back in October, whether that’s a result of a specific situation. If so, if you would be willing to share that story.
Joshua: It really came out of power dynamics, it came out of this woman who had a reason and power and who now took a place of authority in my life and perhaps me not accepting that authority or think I knew better. It's basically just let off some steam, and the things of course that I thought like, “Hey, why don’t I just throw this in there, too, just because I am feeling really turned on around my resentments that I can include this here”.
But yes, it just rises out of confusion and my unacceptance of women operate in a different way than men. I don’t always necessarily want [xx] to that because it takes a lot of work and it burst a lot of bubbles in terms of my own thoughts about love and sex and the meanings of it. To be fully present and be fully aware of how the game works or how the game’s worked is really unromantic.
J : I'm going to take you through a few of these points from your own journal post and then I want to see what you have to say about them. So the first is “Women are mean, spiteful, lying cunts from which there is no escape, seriously”. So seriously, what do you have to say about this?
Joshua : Absolutely! Women are mean, spiteful, lying cunts from which there is no escape. There's a beginning and an end to that sentence. There's a beginning of women are mean, spiteful, lying cunts and you can't live without them. So the truth of the matter is learning to live with that, “OK, is that OK that they're mean, spiteful, lying cunts and can I love that? Can I learn to love that about them?” and say, “OK, this is an ugly part about women and can I deal with it and accept it? Do I have to simply repel it at all times and blame them for it and really blame me for not being able to move or maneuver around it? My growth is simply being willing to accept that and really being willing, “OK, I'm going to get that crappy out of me. Am I willing to have that happen?”
J : OK, the next one. “They will lay claim of and take anything you are unwilling to freely give and then they’ll say “Thank you” as if it were a gift when they’ve gotten it.”
Joshua: I think guys want approval so much. I want approval so much particularly from women, and women could give a fuck about giving approval. When I grip on to anything, when I hold on to anything that I think is mine and should be mine, this is part of me and you can't have it, she’ll do anything she can to take that from you, absolutely. It may be even simply to the fact that you said it's yours and that you're unwilling to give it up. Women are in that respect whether they know it or not, and while they're ripping it out of you, they going to smile at you and think it's for the best and say, “Thank you” for it. It's not malicious necessarily which I think a lot of guys think these things are. They're basically saying, “Are you willing to have your full attention on me and have me first?” If you don’t, then they're going to get angry.
J : So here's the last one and in my opinion the best but that’s because I also have a sic sense of humor. If a woman says thank you and compliment your stroking and just that you're talking about the sensual practice of orgasmic meditation that we do here. It doesn’t mean that she wants to touch your cock. As a matter of fact, now that she knows you can stroke, that’s most likely the most she ever really wants from you from here on out. Well, aside from lifting things and figuring out why her documents won't print. If you do manage to get some sex, you can bet that it's either because she feels guilty or obligated or both. The only exception is if she's decided that you're also good husband material, then she’ll fuck you to claim your ass. Oh, and if she wants to get back at or make someone else jealous. She's not interested in being in “union” with you, that game was invented by men.
So there's a lot in there.
Joshua: Yes, I was just going to say we should break this down line by line. OK, I'm oversimplifying the matter, of course, that’s part of the humor here. But I absolutely think those things are true! If she feels guilty perhaps that you don’t look like you've had sex in a really long time, women will do that. They're really nice like that. Overall, I've had several of those and I was always very gracious, maybe not always very gracious but I felt gracious inside. I may be because I didn’t ensure my gratitude because I didn’t want to embarrass myself further perhaps or obligated because you decided that this is a game of commerce or she has decided this is a game of commerce and it's all about economics.
Like you [xx], she has sex with you, you buy her a house she gives you a baby. You buy her a diamond ring, she falls in love with you. There's so many different little things and intricacies in the economics of love and sex, but intercourse is really a chargy thing. Women have a lot of charge around intercourse particularly if it's not with the man that you're in love and married to. I think that’s probably both cultural and biological. But I do think women love sex, let me just be honest with that and I know that. When I'm with a woman who feels safe to be sexual with me, she usually wants it more than I do.
J : Do you still think that there's a calculation, like is there always a calculation behind?
Joshua: I'm talking more around intercourse. When I say she wants sex, I'm specifically…
J : Right, so then is there always a calculation is my question, because I can tell you that I'm always calculating but I'm just curious in your experience.
Joshua: Thank you for admitting that. Are they always calculating? Yes. “Do I want him to feel this way? Do I want him to feel that way? If I withhold it now, will that piss him off because I'm really pissed at him right now? If I withhold it for just long enough, maybe he’ll buy me this.” I don’t know, to be honest with you, I couldn't really tell you because I'm a guy. I haven’t been let in in all these tricks. And if I was let in in all these tricks, maybe I wouldn’t be so pissed off sometimes.
So maybe you can enlighten me a little further. I'm no expert in this realm. My only expertise lies simply in being willing to explore it and to be honest about it. Be honest about my confusion around it and doing my best not to be pissed and angry and resentful which I get but actually moving into the place of acceptance, surrender, and then actually once I have both of those, reengage.
J : I just want to have you clarify one point because you've used the word surrender a lot, and to a lot of people surrender means defeat, but I have a feeling that you mean different so I just want to clarify that before we end.
Joshua: It depends on my mood. Sometimes it is like, “Fuck! Do I have to give this up, too?” Sometimes it is acquiescing for me, I'll leave it at that. It's not always simply me being zen.
J : So the ideal notion of the term would be a zen-like.
Joshua: Yes, it's surrender, it's giving up my identity, giving up the thing that keeps me separate. Ultimately, all I'm ever doing is surrendering to myself and to my clarity of mind. What is it that I'm holding on to or attaching to that is keeping me from being clean and clear? And in One Taste, we regard the practice of men-women dynamics is a perfect way to find that balance, to find that surrender in every moment by knowing men and knowing women. Understanding the game as best we can and surrendering to the fact that these are the games that are played and not projecting or putting on our template for how things should be but acknowledging the way things are.
J : Thanks very much, Joshua.
J : Thank you for listening to “A Taste of Sex”. For transcripts of this show, you can find us on the Web at PersonalLifeMedia.com. For more information about One Taste, our lectures, classes, and workshops on connection, sensuality, and relationship, go to OneTaste.us. If you want to read more posts like that read by Joshua, check out our chat border blogs. There's a lot of good stuff on there.
I'm J , tune in and turn on.
Woman: Find more great shows like this on PersonalLifeMedia.com.